"Cultural differences" and borderline rudeness.

[Maghribia]

Don't usually venture onto this board but could do with advice from wise MNers!

Am in bed next to dp at the moment, he's snoring loudly while I'm wide awake as I have been for last 2 hours worrying about last night's "exchange of words".

Written down it sounds petty but it is actually starting to really grate. Dp more often than not replies to things I say in a sarcastic manner or "well, obviously" tone and last night he did it once too many (to a shop assistant actually not me) and so I asked him if he knew how rude he sounded.

His response (as it has been when mentioned before) is that it's due to "cultural differences" - I'm Moroccan educated in the uk and he's from a northern european country (don't want to give too much info just in case it outs me, he knows I use MN) that prides itself on "directness". He says that he thinks we are rude because we talk fast and flap our hands, don't give personal space, talk loudly on phone and that it's all a matter of perspective.

The thing is I know other people see him as rude sometimes, for example yesterday a woman heard him answer me rudely and said to her friend "what a catch, I wish he was my husband" in a humorous sarcastic way iykwim.

Speaking of humour, we don't share it and he never laughs with me.

He is loving sometimes as is always the way and insists I am "the one" but nights like last night make me wonder!

"And always correcting my English in this sanctimonious way in front of people, comments like "they are shocked to see a moroccan speaking english" (?!)

Usually when I've had enough he's then lovely for a few weeks".

I guess that after a week or to he reverts back to type but his nice behaviour for that period of time gives you enough hope and is enough therefore to reel you back in. That is a huge red flag; this is all part of the nice/nasty cycle but its a continuous one. You are too "good" for him and he wants to drag you down with him.

He is happy as he is; he does not care to change. Look too as his wider family, how do they behave?. Probably very much the same.

Would suggest you look at the cycle of abuse and the website called The Loser (he talking down to shop assistants is one indicator of the Loser).

I would also rethink ttc with this man as your relationship is fundamentally flawed. Also by being with him, you are stopping yourself from meeting someone without all these issues.

"they are shocked to see a moroccan speaking english"

You say you were educated here, so am I to assume that you were actually schooled here, like most other british women, so therefore have a native command of the language?

If this is the case, then he is being out and out snobby and actually bordering on racist.

Who the HELL does HE think he is looking down on you? WTF has HIS nation ever done to gain any source of pride? FWIW I think I know where he's from, and if I'm right, yes they are direct, but generally NOT so intolerant of others, usually they are known for their open society.

I think the 'I don't mind' phraseology might be linguistic, but the shocked over a moroccan speaking english is out and out RUDE.

I suggest that you hit back with some 'directness' of your own.

FWIW, while i have little experience of Moroccan culture, my Ex was egyptian and they are renowned for talking around and around issues/points and having no directness at all, it is possible that you are being a little sensitive in some areas, but with that shock comment there is NO room for misunderstanding.

I suggest you adopt the MN phrase 'Did you really mean to sound so rude/snobby/twattish?'

OP... From your description, I think I might share your DPs background... :)

I have recently moved back (after 10 years in England) and have perhaps noticed these differences more than ever now.

It may well be that your DP is not a very nice person, that he is intentionally rude BUT I feel like I need to weigh in here...

There ARE vast cultural differences at play, just between "our" way of communicating and the english way, I'd imagine there are even bigger differences with yours?

If his behaviour didn't have cultural elements to it, but rather just general rudeness, I wouldn't have recognised it - similarly, if his friends behave in the same way, that would suggest it is indeed cultural.

I'm not saying it's not hard to deal with, especially if it's a culture you're not familiar with, and I'm certainly not saying it can't be considered rude - it's a common complaint of people who aren't familiar with it (and of many of us who have lived abroad) :)
Men especially (in general) are "worse" than women when it comes to the culturally specific way of communicating.

All I'm saying is - it may well be a culture clash. He should be aware of this: it may be difficult for him to suddenly be chattier and louder, but it's not impossible to tone down sarcasm.

Best of luck...

Mind you, re the friends thing, if you were married to a London football hooligan and you met all his mates who were similar, you might be forgiven for assuming that was the culture of the entire British Isles or at least the South East of England. I can assure you, having lived there for many decades, it is not at all the case.

...sorry, had to sort out kids before...

No excuse for commenting on your English and especially not on "Moroccans speaking English" - we're actually notoriously bad at pronouncing English if he shares my background so he's got some cheek...

Maybe he is just an arse? It doesn't sound like you're happy...

And little things: we don't have a word for please. That doesn't mean we can't learn how to use it... But even after 11 yrs together, my husband sometimes finds it rude that I might say "can you pass the milk" instead of "may I have the milk please". Whereas (although I myself find it infuriating) in some parts of our country, especially men would simply grunt "milk". (Again, I find that incredibly rude and inexcusable, just trying to show how vast the differences can be!)

I hope this helps shed some light on the cultural issues... General rudeness is a different matter.

I don't think it really matters whether he is an arse objectively speaking or not. It only matters how you feel about the way he treats you and possibly any children you may have. Raising children with someone who has very different beliefs almost never works out I think, you need to be a team.

Please think carefully before you have a child with this man. I don't think having children improves men like this. He's a problem now, isn't he? Entitled and selfish are words that come to my mind. Now imagine him coping with the demands of a small child. Imagine him not getting enough sleep and you just not having the same amount of time for him. He'd be a nightmare, I think.

He sounds a proper arsehole OP. Sorry.

Cut him loose and find someone who respects you. You are selling yourself well short, sticking with this arrogant and offensive, petty man.

Do you really want to have children with this man?

Being 'nice' for a couple of weeks, and then resuming rudeness and picking at your English rings alarm bells, tbh.

Some things might be cultural (eg the relative importance of please and thankyou) or a language thing (eg a friend of mine often says "I don't care" which sounds rude and dismissive, when actually she means "I don't mind" - a minor difference which does change the meaning).

However the fact that when it really starts getting to you he can be nice for a while suggests he knows exactly what he is doing and just doesn't see the need to be polite and respectful to you most of the time :(

My DH comes from a very different cultural background to mine, and as much as I love him, I often find him very rude. Despite the fluency of his English, he has real difficulty with please and thank you and sorry - so what Broodzilla is saying does ring very true.

Obviously, that doesn't excuse him behaving like an arse. But if you were to talk to him about it (are you able to?), might he say that you are missing the ways in which he does show respect and love towards you?

I've just left him.

It's not about yesterday, it's been not right for a while.

Of course this means I will have to stop ttc my much wanted baby (unless the clomid worked this month which I doubt) but it seems crazy to continue ttc with someone who doesn't seem to even like me much.

For what its worth he probably would say what Latte said but it's not enough.

Take this morning, I walked past a grocer and the man smiled so I salaamed him, I'm not overly religious but it's polite in our community

And he says "you know you don't have to say salam. You don't know him. Not everyone wants to talk to strangers"

So I said "I know. He doesn't have to reply, I'm just being friendly"

To which he responded "if I were you I would be embarrassed"

You see?

Anyway, I told him straight that it wasn't working and he said "same here, I'm also not happy"

Am still reeling but pleased that I was assertive

It's true that in the UK we tend to say please and thank you a lot (not to mention of course 'sorry' when someone treads on your foot etc). I know when I've lived in Spain people have found it frankly bizarre that I say thank you to the person on the check out in the supermarket. These subtle differences are why even being in a country that speaks the same native language as you can be bewildering in its differences. However, an arse is an arse in any language and in any country. And 'they are shocked to see a Moroccan speaking English' is just rude and stupid, as is his refusal to accept he could be wrong.

But for me the major sticking point is still the fact you don't laugh together. Really, then, what's the point?

I can only apologise for a fairly epic cross-post Maghribia!

Best of luck to you. There are far nicer people out there to have a baby with - or you can go it alone if that's the right choice too.

Northern European people are rude twats? Ur, no, I dont think so.

You are better off out of a relationship where the man cannot even be bothered to be civil to you. Good luck and hope you meet someone far nicer.

Fwiw I never put it down to culture and have always been pro mixed relationships, it's him who mentions it constantly.

Both your posts much appreciated trib and indeed I would not rule out going it alone, better that than an overgrown manchild making stress all the time

I couldn't agree more.

He tells you you should be embarrased for being mildly friendly, and greeting a stranger that smiled at you?

What else has he decided you're not allowed to do...is 'embarrassing'?

Good for you!!

I missed the bit about him 'correcting' your English. What a twat. You sound lovely and very articulate and reflective. Good luck.

Did you and him ever go for a walk in the English countryside? It is quite usual to say "Hello" or "Good Morning" to everyone you pass, and you will quite probably never see them again. In Germany it is polite to greet everyone you meet (at least in your local area).

Maghribia keep us posted on how you are getting on

You said in your first post he had been rude to a shop assistant, that's a big red flag.

I have worked with a lot of Dutch people who are know for their directness, it doesn't make them rude to shop assistants or denigrating of other cultures just because they are direct. They were in customer service and perfectly capable of being polite.

I am sorry that you had trouble conceiving but I think your life could be a nightmare if you had a baby with this man, there is just so much chance he will constantly criticise your parenting skills and say that you are not doing it the right way like they do it where he is from - you could end up really really down.

I'm glad you've left. Whatever about cultural differences, he didn't care about your feelings, and that's what matters.

As an aside, on the "please" and "thank you" thing, I have a Somali friend who gets annoyed with me for saying these things to her. According to her, it implies there is a distance between us, as if I'm begging her for things as a favour, rather than simply sharing what she has as my right.

This is not just cultural difference. My husband comes from a 'direct' culture in which there's no word for please, or people don't typically use it, they just ask for things and then say 'thank you'.

However, he's lived here many years, he has learnt to say please!

He also would not be sarcastic, I don't think this is a national trait of any country, all the 'direct' cultures I know are direct as in honest and not using 100 words where 3 will do, but they are not sarcastic and don't make remarks about how it is amazing you speak English ffs.

Finally, speaking down to assistants, or criticising you saying 'salaam' in the street is awful behaviour, indictative of his belief he is better and right more than you (and you are a lesser type of a person).

Well done that you have left him, although small misunderstandings can occur in culturally mixed relationships, his issue is his ego and how he views you, deeply worrying. Good luck.

He sounds a total arse. Well done you for being so decisive. You sound lovely and deserve much better.

Well done Maghribia.

You sound so strong and together. I understand how hard it is to stop TTCing a much-wanted child, but you have made the right choice for yourself and for any hypothetical children: no child deserves such a selfish and contemptuous twat for a parent, and nor should you put yourself through the misery of partnership with such a man any longer.

You do sound so bright and articulate. All the best.