Question for anyone with knowledge of drink problems

[Nnnnamechange]

im posting this in relationships as I know there's the brave Babes thread and I wondered if any of you can help me. I've also named changed because I expect to get flamed for this and I don't want it hanging over me for ever!

My SIL has a drink problem. It only came to light a few months ago but it's pretty intense. She is on her 3rd detox in 6 months. When she's drinking she drinks vodka- 40 units daily. She's a single parent of a 2 year old, with no local support other than friends. Alcohol Services have been fantastic, giving her daily appointments and counselling etc, but she often cancels appointments either because she doesn't feel like it or because she's drunk. She's done some terribly neglectful things to her son, and finally after her 3rd major relapse he's been taken into temporary foster care.

We do what we can and have looked after her son several times, but we live hundreds of miles away and both work full time.

What I just can't seem to get my head around is why she drinks, and doesn't seem to access the services available to her help her stop, when she knows she's very likely to lose her son. She adores him and he's her reason for living, but she still goes out and buys vodka. Of course there are some reasons for this - terrible childhood etc - I'm not saying she needs to pull herself together, clearly I know it goes much deeper than that.

But doesn't there come a point for any alcoholic when they are able to look at what they risk losing, and decide enough is enough? I've heard people have to reach rockbottom before they can turn things around, but isn't having your child taken into care rockbottom?

Before anyone thinks I'm just being heartless and cruel, I must say that we have been very very supportive to her for years, in many ways - emotionally, financially, practically, psychologically. This is the culmination of years of difficulties.

I'm not asking for advice on how to support her. I'm asking if anyone can explain to me the thought processes that lead to drinking when you know it's going to cost you your child. I just can't understand, as there is nothing in my life I wouldn't give up if the alternative was losing my daughters.

If someone can explain it to me it might help me feel more sympathetic,because right now I just feel exasperated and very confused.

But if everyone had the same rock bottom as you (and me) then there wouldn't be any children in care, would there? The fact there are indicates that others either don't have a rock bottom or it's a hell of a lot lower.

I can understand your exasperation. I'm glad her son is being cared for.

40 units a day is a hell of a lot. I've just been trying to work out how much that would cost - that's the same as a litre of vodka, is it? How on earth does she pay for that?

Okay, imagine it's like this - you wake up in the morning and you need to drink coffee. If you don't drink coffee you actually can't function. Times that by a thousand, that's what it's like. Your body actually hurts without alcohol and you have no control over it once you've started. Ever eaten just one chocolate out the box or intended to and ate the lot. Same thing. But not having chocolate will not make you puke, shake and hallucinate.

At her level of addiction, actually stopping suddenly can be VERY dangerous. So she's faced with slow withdrawal which is harder because the very thing you are trying to quit you have to still have just a little of.

And her son. Well I don't know. To me I'd do anything for my kids but if I were chemically addicted to a substance, the part of your brain which allows that rationalisation is pretty much drunk too and doesn't work properly.

But she'll be dead in six months at that level of alcoholism anyway. Have you considered adoption of the little boy? Sorry to sound flippant but you should plan for the long term. Many alcoholics of this calibre don't make it. :(

The addiction trumps the child, sadly. The reasons behind the addiction I mean, and then the addiction itself.

She is using alcohol as a crutch for something. It all trumps the child. It can be that deep for people. You don't know what she is grappling with. It is best for the child, but very sad to watch unfold and sad for the mother too. Where was the help for her when she needed it, when she was a little girl?

Good luck to all x

But klaxon a few weeks after a medically supervised detox, still sober, surely there's some rational thought then? So why start drinking again?

Her childhood problems are long and complex, and way before my involvement with her. She's DH's sister, and he had a similar upbringing and is not psychologically damaged at all. I'm not sure why.

Alcoholism is a disease. And not every alcoholic will reach rock bottom. Basically her primary relationship is with alcohol, she has no power over it. I know of people who spent a fortune going through detox and to private clinics for residential care and still would leave the establishments and straight back to drinking. She is still in denial most likely, using the effects of alcohol to not feel emotions, and until she takes responsibility for the drinking herself she cannot recover. She is not doing this because she is a terrible person, it is the disease. But she is the only person who can make recovery possible. And until then, having her son taken away is possibly not her fault in her mind. Can I ask where is your brother in all of this?

My XH has lost his wife, his money, his health, his children, family life, and still can't take responsibility for his drinking. His life falling apart is all other people's fault. Apparently.

Al Anon will help you understand what is going on for her and you.

Sorry just saw she is DHs sis. Ignore the brother comment, and swap with child's father. I just assumed.

The detox is just a medically safe way of stopping drinking without keeling over, it will do absolutely nothing about the psychological aspects of drinking.

I'm glad her son is safe.

I am not sure you "should" feel sympathetic - I wouldn't.

If you want to try to understand her, maybe you could think of something you do because it satisfies a craving in the short-term even though it is potentially
harmful in the long-term (e.g. eat chocolate). How do you justify this to yourself? I guess by minimising/denying the long-term risk (one bar won't hurt), telling yourself you deserve it (because you had salad for lunch), that you'll compensate later (extra gym session) etc.

I suppose your SIL is applying similar thought processes but on a grander scale so that she convinces herself that she's not such a bad mum, she doesn't hit him or anything, one drink won't hurt, she deserves it after the day she's had, lots of mothers like a drink, SS don't get involved with families just because the mother likes a drink or two. And of course the craving in her case will be so much greater because of the physical dependency.

I know that it seems impossible to understand, and there are no excuses. There are reasons, and the disease of alcoholism is very complex. A close family member was a lifelong alcoholic and had two children taken into care, and another two adopted out, so I know how far reaching the consequences can be.

The best I can give you, if you want to (try to) understand, is this: The alcohol is the primary relationship in her life right now. It is her mother, her father, her lover, her friend, her absolution, and her condemnation. It makes her feel safe, loved, forgiven and confirms what an evil and useless person she is all in one. It won't actually ever make sense to you, and you can't possibly understand to tell you the truth.

You mentioned a difficult life, and undoubtedly her self-esteem problems have led her to alcohol in the first place. So having her child removed will have done several things - fistly confirmed her low self-image and hurt her incredibly badly, leading her to want to numb out the pain (with more drink, which is her only tried and tested coping strategy right now) and secondly, it will have also shored up the reasons she has internalised for drinking. All alcoholics (and addicts) operate on a driver of guilt and shame and self-hate. Rock bottom may be losing a child for one person, for another it may be death, homelessness, insanity. AA talks about 'jails, institutions and death' as the natural end point for an untreated alcoholic.

You cannot stop her drinking. You cannot wish her or make her better. She will either do this for herself (and probably through AA or similar, rather than a detox which is frankly a quick fix to a symptom, not a solution for the lifelong psychological problem) or she will fade away and end up in one of those places :( All you can do is plan to protect the vulnerable child in the situation as best as you can, and be prepared to love her (if you can) if and when she does, in fact, bottom out.

If you google 'iceberg theory of addiction' you should get some info on the visible symptoms of addiction/alcoholism (eg the drinking is what you see as the tip of the iceberg) and what may be going on underneath (the profound psychological negatives that drive compulsive behaviour). I don't know if it will help but it might be a way to separate the symptom from the person - I'm sorry your family are experiencing this too. Best wishes to you all

She has no choice. This is a disease that is more dangerous than mainlining heroin, and she is a late stage alcoholic. She has no logical thoughts, no control, and any reasoning has left her. He life is now her fix, she didn't find sobriety that was her being a dry drunk for a while. The counsellors stopped her drinking, but didn't change her thinking. You can't frighten a full blown alcoholic, and unless she asks for help from someone who really understands the mental illness here, she will be dead in six months as Klaxon says, if not before. She is not reaching out for help they are telling her to take it. Great shame there wasn't intervention before she reached this point, but going from mid stage to late stage sneaks up on people, I doubt that she will ask for help now. One size never fits all, I have enormous sympathy for her, she is not a bad person, and maybe she got the alcohol genes, if it is in the family. I am so sorry.

As others have said, her primary relationship is with alcohol. My ex husband is the same. I hate alcohol.

You cannot rationalise an addiction. I understand why you want to, and why it seems obvious that she should just stop. But it seems obvious to me, now that I'm sober, that no-one should ever get drunk at all - I mean normal people, not just alcoholics. Why not just have one or two? Or none?

People do things that are inexplicably stupid and sometimes they can't stop doing them. She may see her child being taken into care as a reason to drink more heavily - both to drown out the pain of it and because she doesn't have to remain conscious because he is there. That's how an addict's mind works - everything is a reason to drink.

klaxon is right, I think she probably will be dead in six months; I saw a nurse who had worked in rehab in Glasgow and he said that in general by the time women were admitted to the unit they couldn't be saved, we don't have the ability to drink to that level of excess long term.

You might find this book helps you but I honestly think you need to let go of your need to understand how she can do it.

can't seem to get my head around is why she drinks, and doesn't seem to access the services available to her help her stop

that's what addiction means, loss of rational thought.

"Rockbottom" is a different place for everyone. AA meetings are full of stories about old drinking buddies who couldn't find rock bottom without dying.

What is very difficult to understand about people with substance addictions is the power of the mind's ability to rationalise what they're doing and/or to ignore the likely consequences. There's a website called The Orange Papers that is mainly a collection of anti-Alcoholics Anonymous stuff but the particular page I linked to does a fairly good explanation of what is going on mentally.

Addictions start because the substance used triggers good feelings and/or masks bad ones. The body starts getting used to it in both the sense that it comes to expect a regular dose of it while also becoming more resistant to its effects so you have to have more to get the same result. Eventually you end up forever chasing the nice feelings you originally got but, no matter how much you have, it's never as good as the first time.

I'm reading a very interesting book at the moment called "Addictive Thinking" that, among other topics, touches on the similarities between the reality-distorting effects of addiction and the reality-distorting effects of schizophrenia. Talk to someone with paranoid delusions and their justification for why the CIA is tapping their phones and watching them through the TV aren't even internally logical (they often contradict themselves) let alone connected to reality. Talk to an alcoholic about why they're deciding to continue drinking despite the carnage it's caused to their lives and you'll get much the same cognitive dissonance.

Generally speaking, alcoholics stop drinking when their life has become such a shambles that they can no longer drink enough to ignore it. What that particular point is varies hugely among people. Some will stop after their first drink-fuelled relationship failure. Some after the first time they crash a car while driving drunk. Some die of the effects of the alcohol before ever getting to that point. And even if/when they make a serious decision to stop, sustaining that decision over the weeks, months and years afterwards isn't easy. Our society is awash with booze.

I'll give you an example: my ex. As a direct result of her alcoholism, she has:

• Spent six weeks in residential rehab
• Had at least half a dozen hospital stays for detoxing
• Sustained innumerable injuries (including a fractured skull) from falling down stairs while drunk
• Had seizures and hallucinations while drying out
• Lost a number of relationships
• Lost a number of jobs
• Lost pretty much all her friends
• Spent a night in the cells and lost her driving license through drink-driving
• Caused our DCs to spend 18 months on the Social Services At-Risk register
• And, most significantly of all, lost our DCs as they now live with me full-time.

And despite all that, the best you can say about her is that the amount of time between her falling off the wagon is increasing as the years go by. It used to be that she'd be pissed out of her mind for a couple of months, several times a year. It's now about once a year. Yay.

It's sad and it's tragic and it's senseless. But that's what addictions do to people.

I second what chocoraisin said. My beloved older brother wasted about 15 years of his life with alcohol and it's all about self-esteem and guilt. I have my own issues but luckily found other ways to (mostly) cope. What changed my brother was some pretty serious unconditional (tough!) love and straight talk from his ex, but even so it wasn't easy. People can get better but the fallout is huge - my brother is long term unemployed and still lacks confidence... I think talking with someone who's been there helps so support groups like AA are often good.

I think something else that hasn't been specifically mentioned, they call alcoholism a family disease, because of the horrific impact on the family of the alcoholic - both close family (you mentioned the son who has at least temporarily lost his mother by being taken into care, not to mention the neglect you talked about) but also the impact this has had on wider family, namely your husband (her brother) and yourself. I think I read somewhere that every alcoholic negatively effects the lives of 20 people, I may be wrong with the number but something like that. But don't underestimate the effect this has on you all too. That is not to suggest that you dump her by the wayside, but find the support you need (if you need it) and learn to detach with love from what she is doing (still love her and have a relationship but don't enable or get involved with her drinking and subsequent effects). It (apparently) is possible to have a good and healthy relationship with an alcoholic while they are not in recovery, but it takes a lot of guidance and work, particularly if you are close.

I would be more concerned about her child. Have you thought about what might be best for him medium to long term. Are you planning on leaving him in foster care? It might be worth discussing, if she is drinking as much as you say.

I have lost one relative and a good friend to alcoholism and many to drug use, some lost the care of their children. It has shortened the life of a few family members.

If there was one answer to your question then they would all still be here.

These were all educated people with supportive family/friends.

I have nothing to add to what others have said. There is interesting research around why some people are tighter gripped by addiction, from a biological perspective, which i find some comfort in, because in the individual cases that i know there hasn't been a real reason for them to be addicts, without being harsh, iyswim.

It's a sad life to lead and such a waste, i feel for anyone going through it.

Snorbs good post, thank you, and I am for you and your DCs.

We have an alcohol situation in our family that I think is only going to get worse, and I have only recently realised I can't help the person.

You're trying to make sense of this rationally, but that simply isn't possible.

I am an alcoholic. I have no insight into why I am an alcoholic. The addiction clinics treat the symptoms of alcoholism but not the cause. They don't even attempt to get to the bottom of the causes.

Your SIL is very probably rationalising the loss of her son by thinking that he is better off without her. That may in fact be true. He is certainly better off without her if she continues to drink. She is probably incapable of giving up drinking. Her body and psyche are now adapted to alcohol and both are dependent upon it.

For you this is going to be hard to come to terms with but I'd urge you to leave behind the "how could she" question and just maybe focus on managing the impact of her alcoholism on you, your family and your nephew-in-law.

Alcohol is addictive -it can be that simple.

Lots drink because they are unhappy,anxious,depressed,lost,stressed,sad,abused or just like the feeling of being pissed (am one of them,or was).Once you find that missing piece that makes you forget,numb or happy its a tough wheel to get off.

Did she get support and aftercare ie therapy after her detoxes?

I agree with Hopefully.