My toxic mother...............Long...............sorry

[jammibuttery]

I did post a while ago, after i got engaged and my mum ruined it because my brother made a twatty mistake (despite knowing what she's like) and let slip to her that he knew before i had a chance to ring her. She was her usual spiteful self about it.

This is quite typical of my mother, who has the ability to ruin everything, simply because it hasnt been done quite how she feels it should have been.

End result she hasnt really spoken to me in 3 months, despite me expecting another baby (my last dd has special needs and she knows how scared i am over this pregnancy) and hasnt really tried to see my dd (who apparently she dotes on) I have ceased to exist.

Myself and all my brothers and sisters have had problems over the years, with her and nicking our money/actively disliking (and showing it) our partners/a total belief if you arent doing it exactly her way then you are wrong, and you need to be ignored and various upsets caused by my mother, and involving her not speaking to that person for months on end.

One sister has completely cut her out of her life, and two brothers totally keep away from her and keep her at arms length.

Anyway, i went to a family party last week with my DP. I knew my mum would be there, and i asked my sister to tell her that i wasn't going to discuss anything with her at this party, as she would start immediately, and i would speak to her in private at a later date if need be.

So my mother ignored me for the whole time, fair enough, but as i was leaving and i let dd say goodbye to her she decided THAT would be the ideal moment to "sort this out".

This involved her barking out at me "are we going to sort out this nonsense? Ive got a whole bloody bag of your old baby clothes for you to collect" I refused to talk about it there and then because she was confrontational from the off, and i knew how it was going to go, and i tried to leave with dp and dd.

This then provoked my mum to chase me through the sports centre, screeching so all around could hear, that "that was it, we're finished, you've made your bloody bed you can bloody lie in it". She showed me up, and made a scene at my brothers party. She also chased me (who is nearly 8 months pregnant) the whole length of the place.

Dp tried to speak to her, and told her he felt her screaming was no good, and perhaps a good start would to be to apologise to me for her behaviour over the last 3 months and for now. She was also aggressive to dp, telling him "tell her, i dont apologise to my children for anything"

So, now it comes to my dd. My sister wants to start picking dd up and taking her to see my mum (dd and my mum did see each other quite a bit), but im not keen on it. My mum doesnt drive and lives 40 mins away. This puts pressure on my sister to do the driving, and i'll feel pressured to drive part way so my sister doesnt have to.

I dont want to be spiteful to my mother, and i know she is good with my dd, but i feel like if i do this, my mother will be sat there on her arse, expecting me (who she wont talk to) and my sister to run around so she can have a relationship with dd. Then obviously, i presume im meant to do the same when the new baby comes.

I dont know what to do where dd is concerned. I am furious with my mother right now, but i dont want to stop her seeing dd "just to teach her a lesson" ifyswim.

MY friend says dd still has a right to a relationship with my mum, even if i can no longer have one with her.

Does she?? I dont know.

no, your mother has no right to a relationship with your children. and your children will thank you for keeping them away from her. she sounds insane.

tell your friend that mothers who expose their children to nasty, abusive, emotionally manipulative grandparents are themselves abusing and neglecting their children.

there is no "lesson" to be taught here, don't let anyone tell you you're being petty. there's only the emotional wellbeing of your children, and that is paramount. do not expose your children to people who are unstable and manipulative, it's probably one of the stupidest things you could do. and your friend is, frankly, a numpty for suggesting it.

don't let your sister take DD to see her.

you should not remain in contact with someone like this. if you insist on still talking to her at some later date, ensure that your children are not exposed to her in any way.

Grandparents have no 'rights' to a relationship with grandchildren.

I fail to see what your DD would get out of a relationship with your mother, she doesn't sound like a particularly nice person and it'd only be a matter of time before she starts treating your DD the way she treats you, with DD either having to do things to suit Nanny or not at all.

I wouldn't facilitate any sort of relationship between them - you and your children are a package.

See, i do think my mum has some mental problems.

My sister is very pro "sorting this out" as my mother is old (70s) and she says that she is our mum and we need to accept her the way she is.

Part of this i accept, but part of it sounds like just excusing her doing whatever because "thats what mum does"

I spoke to my brother about it, who just said "we've all been here, she's done stuff to all of us, and the only way to sort it is if you apologise to her for what she has done" which in truth is spot on.

But, i cannot fault her previously with dd. She is a much better nan than mother, but im worried that if my mum does see her it wont be too hard for her to tell dd all about how "nanny cant see her because mummy wont let her"

I know i need to cut my mum out of my life, as she will cause a problem over something else (there is always something that doesnt meet her approval), and im not a young girl, but it is hard, because she is my mum, and she is old and i am not a particularly vindictive person.

When your dd is old enough to make an informed, rational, mature decision, then she has a right to a relationship with your mum if she wants one. By then she'll be old enough for you to explain why you don't have a relationship with your mum, and to explain why you kept her away from your mum when she was little.

At the moment, your dd has a right to be protected from your mum, just as you would protect her from anyone else who behaves like that.

Someone who behaves like that is never going to be "good with" a child, not for long.

Your sister is right, you need to accept that your mum is the way she is, and that that means you don't see her.

Apologising to her wouldn't sort it, it would mean you'd have to have contact with her again until the next time she walked on you.

You're right, if you let dd see her, your mum will use your dd to make trouble. Good grannies don't do that.

Sure she is old, sure this makes you feel bad because your mum has trained you well - but you can do it! You haven't seen her for 3 months - was it better for you and your family, or not?

If your ds is helping you out with childcare and goes to visit your Mum, or your Mum visits her then I can't see a problem with short contact like that. I wouldn't put yourself out for your Mum, she sounds very toxic from your description.

Given how she has treated you and your siblings to date, it would not be long before she starts on your DD in the same manner. Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents.

Think your sister is not wise to suggest taking your DD over to see her Nan. Its not going to work out. Also your sister needs to realise that she cannot help anyone who does not actually want help. It is also not your fault your mother is like this.

Have a look at the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages. You will get more support and counsel there that way too.

I completely agree with all the other posts. Your mother doesn't have any rights but your DD does have a right to be protected. Sounds like your life is alot better/easier without all the aggregation your mum brings to it

I do actually feel better not seeing her.

Myself, like my brothers and sisters have spent our lives editing our lives so as not to piss her off, i was going mad trying to work out just how, when the baby was born, i would ensure my mum who lives miles away and doesnt drive, was going to see the baby first, so as not to cause a sulk, and it does feel a relief to kind of live life pleasing no one but us.

BUT, she was a tremendous help when my dd was born with special needs, and my exp walked out on us shortly after.

Then i think, knowing what she knows about my fears for this baby after what happened, what kind of mother ignores her own child for 3 bloody months at a time when they really need support and handholding, simply because they werent told first about an engagement! It wasnt even deliberate!

When i think about that, it brings her, as a mother into question for me. I simply could not ignore my dd at a difficult stage in her life, simply because "i didnt apologise to my children" and was too pig headed to end it.

She has not enquired after me or this pregnancy since we rowed over the engagement.

Thats not right is it? Not in your mum?

Absolutely what Bertha said.
Your op has got the hairs on my neck prickling. 'We have to sort it out right now' - that's my mums battle cry. Ending in me feeling like shit whilst she revels in being the victim. My mum is toxic also - its all about her dontcha know?
Have very limited contact and have a better life because of it.

Yeah, i do feel a bit like shit.

She spent a day screaming at my sister and blaming her, then started on about how she wishes she was dead, and she feels like packing her bags and just leaving.

Even when she was chasing me around, in between screeching at me, she was saying "all ive done is help you, i really deserve this don't i?" before yelling again.

She was all over the place, one minute going on about wanting to buy the buggy, the next going on about how awful i am!

Tbh with my hormones, and worries over the baby, its left me all over the place, and stupid.

Im normally pretty level headed and able to stand my ground.

i hate to be so negative, but seriously, your mother probably helped you with your last baby because she wanted something to hold over your head.

don't stand for that nonsense. her previous good behavior doesn't mean anything if she is currently treating you like this. that's like saying it's OK for your DP to hit you, because he was nice to you before!

my mother tried something like this with me once - gave me a 2nd-hand piece of furniture, and then years later whined when i wouldn't give it back to her instead of sell it (we were hard up and selling our stuff, she swooped in wanting that item "back" for free since it was "hers" anyway).

i told her that if in future she wanted to give me a gift with strings attached, or if future gifts were actually given on condition that i give them back to her eventually, she was to specify the terms in advance, so i was free to refuse.

don't be ashamed or guilty, that's what she's counting on. she wants you to feel shit so she can force you to do what she wants you to do.

I think your mum must be my mum Jam.
DD is 12 now but my mum wanted to buy her pram. Ie. the pram my mum wanted. I dared to select a different chassis, cue a 'what's so wrong with me' tantrum culminating in her weeping on the shoulder of one of the shop assistants in John Lewis, and trying to elicit sympathy from other shoppers. I was 7 months pregnant and standing there mortified. Then I walked off to be chased by her shouting 'we need to sort this out'.
I gave in to her and continued to do so until it made me ill and I realised that nothing would make her happy or satisfied and any love she had for me came with too many conditions.
So sorry to hijack - your posts ring so many bells.
People like that are best kept at arms distance.
Good luck for your new wee baby x

Your mum is not just mad, she is DAGENHAM MAD... That is 3 stops past BARKING.

Keep away from her, keep your children away from her and take legal advice if you have to.

My mum had a very difficult relationship with her mother. She could be manipulative, emotional, stubborn, acid tongued and downright difficult. She used to play her 3 daughters off against each other and could be very unpleasant. My mother has since told me that she loved her mother very much, but very rarely liked her.

However, my grandmother doted on her grandchildren and never ever gave us a hard time about anything. My mother never stopped me seeing my grandmother and we always had a very close relationship, even when my mother and grandmother weren't on speaking terms.

If your mother can maintain a relationship with your DD without dragging her into the drama, then it would be lovely for them both to continue to see each other. If you think your mother could use your DD to continue to get at you, I would leave well alone.

Lol at hissy. She's right though. barking mad. What a cow. I would steer well clear. She sounds utterly self-obsessed and she will only start on your daughter. Congratulations on your pregnancy and your OH sounds lovely btw. Cut her out.

ps, rofl at the image of you heavily pregnant running away from screaming mother through a sports centre. Well done! You must be well fit!

My dd is 14.

About 6 years ago, my uncle wanted to come over for tea so that 'd'm could meet her gd. She was extremely toxic, and I hadn't seen her since 1992, when she stopped me seeing my much-loved aunt with her viciousness - she told us both, but independantly, that the other thought our behaviour was despicable, and never wanted to see the other, ever, again. Less than 3 months after my aunt and I got back into touch, she did something that caused a very serious stroke, and my aunt died 4 months later - she only lived that long as my uncle nursed her at home - in hospital, she would have lasted about 3 weeks.

Apart from the fear around seeing my 'd'm again, there was no way on earth that I would have let her anyway near dd. Yes, I'm getting quite a lot of grief now, as 'd'm died in Jan and banned us from her funeral, but I would make the same decision again.

Having just spotted this thread i thought you ladies might like to know that in this months Psychologies magazine their Dossier is called Your Mother and You. It covers all sorts of mother daughter relationships ,the controlling mother,the toxic mother,the narcissitic mother etc and coping mechanisms. Just thought you might like to know.

If it wasn't for a few details different, you could be my SIL.

My MIL sounds like your DM's twin, right down to chasing people out of parties in order to scream at them (though mine would never do anything in front of an audience, so she could lie about it afterwards).

We are now NC with her and it's been a restful few months. It's not easy but I think it's worth it in the long run, she made out lives completely miserable. I think you need to just say 'no', and calmly stop responding to her demands for attention (which is what this is). You sound lovely - I hope all goes well with dc2 and your lovely dc1.

And actual lol at hissy

OP I broke off contact with my Mum and Stepfather last year. Since having children myself, she had become unbearable, screaming abuse at me every time she saw me, even threatening to hit me when I was pregnant with DD2. After an incident in which she accused my husband of something so awful that we couldn't forgive her, we decided we couldn't afford to have her coming near us and our kids. She was very good with my children and they miss her but they were present at the incident that led to the break and fully understand and support our decision.

It is difficult, I went through a period of mourning because she was effectively dead to me. It was not mourning for her but for the loving supportive mother I thought I once had. An abusive parent has no rights to see grandchildren. Stop her coming anywhere near you and your own family.

No she does not have a right to a relationship with your DD.
She sounds a barking loon, please keep your children away from her

I have a difficult Mum too and over the years have struggled with the idea of completely cutting her out of my life, but have never been able to do it. I once read a reply to a letter in an Agony Aunt column (Daily Mail lady, can't just think of her name.. Sally something?) which has stuck with me - the same question that you are asking. The reply was that basically a grandchild won't have the same emotional bond with their grandmother as you do with her as your mother and therefore won't be as affected or as senstive to their behaviour and so a good relationship is possible. On this basis I have allowed and my ds to see my mother regularly, even though she is not the perfect grandparent, she does seem to care and enjoy him and she doesn't treat him as craply as me or my siblings. She gets stroppy with me often for 'criticising' her when I put my foot down about things, eg I've told her not to tell ds to 'shut up' and definitely no smacking when I saw her hand raised one time, but in general ds loves to see his Nan, he's 3.5yrs. If he ever complains to me though, I'll rethink.