AIBU for wanting a depth of honesty with my partner?

[MrAdekunleElvis]

Firstly, despite my name, I'm actually a woman. I've namechanged and picked an old, joke name from a thread years back.

I've been with my husband for 15 years, married for 12. We have two children under 7.

I feel as though we've (or, rather, I've) been trying to tackle the same old problems for twelve years, and we've not moved forward even one step. In essence, when I challenge something DH has done, he more often than not gets defensive, and uses a whole arsenal of strategies to defend himself. One of his favourites is blame - usually blaming me or something our eldest has done, or some external circumstance beyond his control. We often end up arguing, then he stonewalls, and basically the issue ends up getting ignored, and I end up resentful.

I used the word 'challenge' - what I mean is raising an issue about something he's done. I don't do it often - maybe once every 2-4 weeks. Very occasionally it'll be about big things, like asking him about the way he handles conflict with our eldest - he sometimes goes through shouty phases. More often than not it's 'When you have breakfast in the morning you leave your dishes and food mess all over the worktop. It's happened every day this week. Would you mind not doing that?' That's typical of the way I word my complaints, and I'll usually say it in a tone that's firm but friendly. And then he'll get pissed off and yadda yadda yadda.

I've tried lots of different ways of complaining, and the only one that reliably gets a non-defensive reaction is when I've asked in a sort of pleading, almost submissive tone (I tried it a few times as an experiment. If he thinks I'm going to start communicating that way in general, he can think again).

What I would like is to have a relationship where we can both raise issues with each other, listen and consider each other's views before responding, and even go away and think about each other's perspective. It's important to me, and so I do this for him. Am I expecting too much to wish for the same in return? I've tried talking to him about this, lots of times. We've been to see a counsellor, we've been on relationship courses. No change. After 12 years of dealing with this and other 'game'-type behaviours, I just can't be bothered any more. Which means accepting that our relationship is going to slowly deteriorate because I'm gradually losing respect, and therefore love, for him.

Am I expecting too much? Am I being a horrible bitch? Is this just a classic male-female thing?

Sounds awful.
Have you tried using "I messages" to explain how you feel. So instead of complaining about him "you do this, you do that, you are wrong", try and rephrase it to talk about how the problem affects yo and makes you feel "It makes me feel unhappy when you...". It can take some of the heat out of a situation as there is less blame and it is very hard to turn round and tell someone that they don't feel a particular way. There's some more information here.
I've come across the use of I-messages quite often when talking to parents about communicating with their children and partners and it can be a useful tool to try.

Yup, tried it.

I've just been reading a personality description from a test we both did years ago. It was an OMG moment. Truly illuminating. It detailed lots of my thoughts about this and other problems, almost to the letter.

I don't think you're expecting too much. At the same time, if you've been through counselling and everything, do you think things can actually change?

What did you see in the personality tests that's so interesting?

To paraphrase dreaming, what do you see in his personality that's so interesting?

Being unable to have frank, open, honest, mature, conversations conducted with mutual love and respect and without rancour, grudgebearing, or other penalty, with a significant other would do my head in rapidly make me lose interest in them.

And you've put up with it for 12 years?

Give that woman a gong medal

You're not expecting too much. If your husband was relative stranger, a flat-mate sharing your home, you'd probably be able to have those conversations in a civil manner without the other person flinging accusations back. That's how you know it's a normal ambition.

I'm going to recommend you read this article... What Shamu Taught Me About a Happy Marriage. Applying the techniques for training a wild animal to a grown man may sound odd, but it's worth a look. Reward good behaviour. Ignore irritating behaviour.

Thanks for your posts, it's heartening to see that I'm not just being an excessively demanding cow!

On the whole we get on pretty well, and he's mostly a great dad, which is why I've stayed with him for so long. It's only when it comes to disagreements that these problems emerge. But it's in around 95% of our disagreements, and no, dreaming, I don't believe things will change. I tried all those things just in case, but I've totally lost faith in any chance of improvement in this area.

The personality description listed these weaknesses:

"May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism YES
May perceive criticism where none was intended YES
May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly YES
May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper NOT 'GREAT' ANGER, BUT YES, SOMETIMES I'LL-TEMPERED
May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress A BIT
May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view SOMETIMES
May be unaware of how their behavior affects others SOMETIMES
May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with them, or disapproval of them YES

I've only pastes the bits which relate to him - the description did say it's ok to do that! It comes from Myers-Briggs. There was also a statement saying that they can interpret specific negative feedback as a criticism of their whole character. It's a great, big, fat YES to that one.

Cogito, thanks for that link, I'll have a read.

Well I've just read that article, Cogito, and here are my initial thoughts:

It sounds like so much work. I've tried so many things already, for such a long time, and I just feel as though I'm beyond the stage where I could apply that approach with any enthusiasm.

Also I work incredibly hard, both at home and outside the home, so my energy levels for myself are pretty low. All these years it's felt like a one-sided attempt to improve the things that aren't working in our relationship, and I'm afraid this approach feels very much like more of the same.

If I'm honest I don't think I want to be with him any more, for many reasons including this one. But with two children and, at the moment, a struggling career with little income (that's me) I'm finding it hard to see how I can make that happen.

Out of curiosity, which M-B category is that?

It sounds a lot like my mum and I'm really struggling with her, just curious whether it might help to read it...

If, fundamentally, you and your DH have incompatible personalities, and there is not a joint willingness to change, then there's not much you can do. Your only options are to stay in a not-great marriage or to leave.

If you don't think you're going to be able to stay in this not-great marriage forever, then the sooner you leave the better, otherwise it's all wasted time isn't it?

Maybe you could go do a free half-hour with a solicitor and find out what would happen if you did split, in terms of money and everything else. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad as you think?

Do you have a really good friend you could talk to about this? I once had a hard time getting out of a relationship, and my best friend told me to list every single reason for not leaving, no matter how small or stupid. Then she addressed every one with a solution or reassurance. It really helped me see that I was staying mostly because I didn't want to deal with the breakup, not because I really wanted to be with him.

Sounds to me like the problem is fairly simple. Your H considers that you are only a 'woman' but he is a Man, therefore you exist for his benefit, you are in fact somewhere between family pet and household appliance. As far as he is concerned, the 'woman' makes whining noises from time to time but still works OK, you just close your ears to the whining.

I think that 12 yrs. is enough - you've only got one life & you've given the situation your best shot - being realistic its never going to change much from here - don't spend the rest of it with the wrong guy!

Dreaming - it's INFP.

Sgb - I don't think it's about him denigrating my value because of my gender; there's no evidence to suggest that. I think it's more to do with how he views himself, and that in the confines of our homes & family relationships, we all feel safe enough to show our crapness.

If he were being honest with himself and with me about his brand of crapness, I'd feel that we had a future. But this keeping-it-under-the-carpet crap is never going to get us anywhere.

I started a thread elsewhere asking whether MNers would still go out with their current partners if they met them today. I was truly surprised by the number of yes's, which I am definitely not. These two threads are convincing me that I shouldn't go on like this and that I deserve better.

Dreaming and Henry, yes, you're right. There's no point in sticking out a marriage that's not great. I realise that now.

Dreaming, right now the solicitor idea is too scary to think about - and I am a tough cookie, not scared of much! But I like the idea of talking it through with a friend in the way you did. I shall think of who to consult.

OP, I am an INFP and don't act in any of the ways you describe your Dh as doing. These things are interesting but don't place too much importance into things like that. At best, they are only a fragment of the reasons why a person had certain behaviours and they certainly don't escuse any of it. Your DH is behaving badly because he is an arse, not because he is an INFP or anything else.

You know Oxford, you're right, in that I can see roots of this behaviour in his family background and in the fact that he's a man - it's the 'don't tell me what to do' attitude which is, as a generalisation, more typical in men than women. So I can see three distinct possible causes! At the end of the day it sort of doesn't matter why he does it: what matters most is that he does it and what he does about it.

I genuinely don't think he's an arse - he is often kind and helpful, he works hard and does a good share of the housework, he is loving as well. All of which makes me feel bad for feeling this way about him, but I feel like this & other issues have soured my love for him. So I've done my best to improve things, but he hasn't met me halfway and so this is the consequence.

But I meant to say, Oxford, that it was illuminating to read the INFP description, as it did voice very precisely many of the irritations which I've been dealing with. So it's not that I'm basing my beliefs on that description; more that it sort of gave an extra level of credence to my gripes.