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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Saying no to family get togethers - how to do it

24 replies

StillAwakeAgain · 27/04/2012 01:20

Namechanged for this one as some RL friends/family are on MN.

I'm from a big family, all now grown up and some with kids of our own. We're mainly pretty close although all sometimes driven to distraction by my mother who is well-loved but has always been on the unpredictable and irrational side. For xmas, easter and bank holiday weekends, we generally still go to my parents' house and have family meals and outings. It gets a bit stressful but is usually worth it to see everyone and catch up. It also pleases my mother (even though she says that none of us "have to" come back...)

Recently, a family member that no one gets on with (F) has returned from overseas where he has been working for more than a decade. F is intermittently camping out at my parents' house and refusing to tell them what his long term plans are. He just comes and goes. (He freelances so could work pretty much anywhere.) They say they don't want him to stay long-term but I have no idea whether they've told him this or whether he cares.

While F is there, the atmosphere in the house is deeply unpleasant. He and my mother row and snipe at each other while she pretends that everything is completely normal. The rest of us try to stay well out of it but are walking on eggshells all the time. My mother intermittently accuses the rest of the family of not sticking up for her with F but we know from long past experience that if any of us do criticise him she always takes his side against us. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Me and other siblings have long deliberately detached ourselves from F and do not engage with him at all beyond "pass the salt, please" type conversations.

While he's there, she continues to cook her set-piece dinners which the rest us are compelled to attend and witness her attempts to start normal conversations that lead nowhere except insults and nastiness. It's like being in a play about family dysfunction.

I've decided that I just don't want to go back at all while this relative is living there. I definitely don't want to sit through another one of those dinners and I also don't want my DC exposed to the atmosphere which is horrible and impossible to explain to a little kid.

Is it best to tell my mother this up front and face upsetting her or should I just make excuses for all upcoming holidays until F moves on somewhere else? (If he ever does...) I could cope with seeing him for a couple of days over xmas but that is my maximum annual tolerance level.

I'd love it if my parents came to see me and DC more often instead but my flat is tiny and they don't seem to be comfortable either sleeping on the sofabed or taking my room and letting me sleep there instead.

OP posts:
EmmaCate · 27/04/2012 01:45

I would be honest - making excuses may not work if she tries to work round them and then you'd have to say anyway.

Stress it's nothing against her and if she sticks up for F say you're sorry that's how she feels; you aren't trying to be antagonistic but it's not going to sway your feelings towards this person.

izzyizin · 27/04/2012 01:45

Are your siblings prepared to sing from the same song sheet and tackle your dps about the unpleasantness that accompanies meals when F is present?

If not, there's a time for diplomatic excuses and this would seem to be the time for you to take refuge in them.

I have to ask why F has been able to descend on your dps and treat them like shit their house as his personal hotel. Does he have the goods on a juicy family skeleton or 2?

garlicnutter · 27/04/2012 01:49

Lots of ways :)

I'd say something like "I realise this might be hurtful, but I just don't like the atmosphere with F around so I'm afraid I shan't be coming." This would work with my (also crazy) mother. She'd tell everyone but ultimately would prefer honesty and the gossip fuel.

Alternatively you can just lie about other engagements, illnesses, builders in the flat, work crises, etc, etc, until she finally asks what the problem is.

You could go, invent a furore with your DC, leave frantically, then say DC is convinced there's a monster/ghost in the house and won't set foot there again. I wouldn't want to implicate a child that way, but it's no great sin.

You could go, fall out massively with F and leave in high dudgeon.

I'm looking forward to others' replies! :)

Could your parents not stay at a B&B when visiting you?

StillAwakeAgain · 27/04/2012 01:57

I think one of my brothers and his wife are likely to be making the same decision as me. They're both reasonable people who I see outside of the big family get-togethers and I'll probably talk to them about this first. Another brother is already refusing to sit through the meals. He just eats and leaves the table within 10 mins (and he's normally the most chatty and sociable of the bunch).

I don't know how F gets away with it. He's a psychological bully and manipulator with narc tendancies but my mum always stuck up for him for as long as I can remember, making excuses for totally unacceptable behaviour. I fear that as she gets older she's the one who is going to get the worst of it now.

OP posts:
StillAwakeAgain · 27/04/2012 02:06

Teehee Grin to Garlicnutter's suggestions!

Yes, maybe I should be more creative! I could claim any number of interesting religious, cultural or spiritual reasons why I can't be a part of these occasions...

I fell out personally with F a long, long time ago over his general behaviour towards my parents and other people. To fall out any further we'd probably have to get the police involved... For me more than the others, any contact has always been grudging and very much for the sake of my mother.

Don't know why they don't stay in a B&B really. Perhaps they would if I started keeping away from the big family dos. I am close to my parents and they do love their grandkids.

OP posts:
HoleyGhost · 27/04/2012 02:59

Lies will backfire - just be honest that you don't want your DC exposed to the atmosphere while F is there and don't go.

I wonder how much your discomfort is due to F and how much to your Mother's pandering to his behaviour. You don't explain why you are all "sometimes driven to distraction by my mother who is well-loved but has always been on the unpredictable and irrational side".

empirestateofmind · 27/04/2012 03:14

Just be calm and honest. Your being firm might be the impetus your parents need to resolve the situation.

dreamingbohemian · 27/04/2012 03:15

The problem with all of you starting to duck out, is that you're essentially abandoning your mother to F's nastiness. I understand her unwillingness to deal with it is a big part of the problem, but there must be some really complicated emotional stuff going on there for her. I still think you should try to be there for her.

I have a son myself and while I like to think I would cut him off if he acted like this -- gosh. Not only does it go against the most visceral parental feelings, to reject your own child, but it would have to feel like admitting that you have screwed up big time, to have a child who could be so awful. I'm not saying your mum is right, but it must be really hard for her.

If you have a big and close family, why is it that this one man can terrorise and bully everyone? Can't you all get together and form a plan to confront him yourselves? It might be one big drama but then maybe he'd sod off for a while.

HateBeingCantDoUpMyJeans · 27/04/2012 03:38

Could you all hold an American style intervention, turn up and all tell your mum how concerned you are for her and effect it is having in the family and basically make her see that you can't al be there whilst he is ie choose.

WMDinthekitchen · 27/04/2012 05:25

I would be honest with your mother in as tactful a way as possible. She must realise the effect F has on other family members. Can you invite her to visit you for a change to make up for it (excluding F from the invitation as you need to discuss your gynae problems it's a "girly" thing)?

HillyWallaby · 27/04/2012 05:43

As your mother is well aware what F is like, and has issues with him herself, I would not hesitate to just be honest with her about not wanting to be around while he is there.

AThingInYourLife · 27/04/2012 06:11

Just tell her what is going on.

Is F your brother, or a more distant relative?

If the former, I think that makes it more complicated.

doormat · 27/04/2012 06:19

from personal experience of both sides here i wouldnt be too hasty...

my lil bro n sis (will not put a dear near them at all) have bled my mother and father dry since they were babies, through stealing, lying,family time, pawning jeweleery, stealing bankcards etc.... they have caused family rows over the years as me, and my ds and db have been there for our parents and everytime we pointed out a problem against the said sis n bro, it was brushed under the carpet...it culminated in one huge major family fallout where neither me my ds or db had any part to play yet we were cut off and our parents walk past us in the street without even an acknowledgement,,they took the sis n bros side...it used to hurt but now i laugh about it as i know for a fact that my parents will be in a living hell and they deserve it..as what they partook in was not what any parent should do....

on the other hand, i have one dd who is selfish and my other dc get on with her but to a point...i know dd's faults but refuse to be a party to any of the sniping as i do not want any of what i have gone through running in my family...my dc come home from abroad once or twice a year and i can feel the tension build.. i do point out to all of them including dd that more tolerance is needed

sorry if this is long winded but just trying to give you examples,, but your mum is not going to change, she may get fed up and moan but she will never oust (f) despite how much pressure is put on her...

i would suggest like another poster did and that is invite her round for girly things, ask parents to go for a meal etc..try and do things with them that includes you all but not (f)

i also think (f) needs talking to about his future plans but i personally wouldnt gang up on him behind his bk i would do it at one of these family dinners, ask him as to when he passes the salt lol..what his plans are and does he need help finding place to live etc...it could also be an idea that you all club together and give a deposit for his own place

Lougle · 27/04/2012 06:44

There are two sides to this. Ok, so you have an awkward time when you see your DM and f is there. But your Mum has to do it all the time.

Why do I say 'has to', when she has a choice? Because I truly believe that the relatives in these situations have been ground down much like a patner in an emotionally abusive relationship.

Without being overt (I try to never post something on a internet forum that I wouldn't be keen for someone to 'find' ) I have a similar situation. I have long since realised that the 'abused' people involved will not be able to extricate themselves, and if I do/say anything, no matter how much they moan whinge and complain about the situations they are put in, it is seen as me victimising the 'perpetrator'.

I completely understand the feeling of taintedness that comes when contact is made. The atmospheres, the jibes, the dragging down. The fact that I choose to raise my children in one way, yet they are exposed to another way because I happen to have a relationship with people that person is connected to.

My view, is that I can step back from a relationship with the 'perpetrator' for myself. I avoid contacting them, never ask for anything, etc., but if I avoid contact when it is related to the people I have a good relationship with, the only people I am hurting is them.

Sorry to be so cryptic.

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 27/04/2012 08:25

OP, I find your first post very wise: you are not trying to change your mother, you just know that you, personally, do not want to participate in these family get-togethers with F there, nor do you want to expose your DC to it (bravo).

I really think you should just say so, and let the fallout be what it may. You are completely entitled to state what you are and are not willing to participate in.

"Thanks for the invitation. I will not be coming, as I am uncomfortable when F is at these gatherings."

AdiVic · 27/04/2012 09:10

Lots of good advice here already, which says honestly id the best policy. My dad and his partner are in a similar situation, with my dads partners ex daughter in law (geddit??? long un eh?). She was dumped by her OH a year ago and stayed with his mother for a few weeks whilst she got her stuff together - she is still there a year later. She is nowhere near as horrible as F by the sounds of it.

My dad complains constantly at this, and my siblings and I dont' really go round there as the ex is bloody weird and gossips - we have been very straight with our dad and said so. Honesty really is the best policy.

Funnily enough, they have not actually asked this woman to move out (who is 40 by the way, not 18) - I said to my dad I wondered whether his partner actually enjoed her being there/enjoyed looking after someone - got some warped pleasaure.

Why is your mum putting up with this idiot? He sounds vile? Is it her brother who she feels some kind of responsibility towards?

Could you not speak to him and say his behavior and attitude is not acceptable in front of children? No child wants to see their grandmother be spoken to in a nasty way. Could you not speak to your mum and get her to put a plan of eviction in place, i.e. speak to him and say she wants her space back by such and such a date. Seems a shame for everyone to boycott her house, and her just cos of him.

Tricky one - hope you manage to get rid of the horrid little sh**.

Helltotheno · 27/04/2012 09:31

I have a similar situation OP, though not a large family. While my 'F' doesn't sound like exactly the same character type as yours, the net result is the same. I blame him and my parents equally for casting a shadow over my teenage years, as does my other sibling.

When I left home after college, I made it very clear to my parents that I was not going to be at home if he was - deviated from that a few years later once, which only confirmed my opinion that going no contact was the right thing to do.

Your mother is in the wrong. F is in the wrong. You absolutely don't have to collude in their dysfunctional relationship. Be strong and say to your mother that you will not be there if he is. Arrange to meet her in other places, if yours doesn't suit either. Remember that your parents are in large part responsible for creating this situation, not you. You and your family don't have to take it on.

As regards him, do not engage with him at all. He is holding the whole family to ransom and believe me, that's the way he wants it. The more people berate, persuade and cajole him, the worse he will be. He is all about getting and creating negative attention. You owe him nothing.

StillAwakeAgain · 27/04/2012 11:48

Thanks for all the thoughts and different perspectives. This morning I am erring towards just being upfront and honest with my mum about this, otherwise I'll just be adding to the general weirdness and dysfunction. She knows how I feel about F so it can't be that much of a surprise.

Yes, F is one of her children and therefore a less than 'D' B to me and other siblings.

HoleyGhost: It's both due to F and the pandering from my mum. We've all found ways to personally stop engaging with him but are then drawn back in through her.

DreamingBohemian is right that there's probably some really complicated emotional stuff going on for my mum. Her own parents split due to her father's violent abuse and she had sporadic and unreliable contact with him when growing up. For example, he would apparently sometimes disappear for months and then turn up out of the blue with ridiculously expensive presents for his daughter but never pay any maintenance to his ex-wife. As an adult she cut him off completely and only found out he had died years after the event. Her attitude to abusive men has always been odd to me (often blaming the woman for either provoking it or staying with him after the first instance) and I wonder if it's linked to her own childhood. Neither my dad nor any of my other siblings believe there's any excuse for domestic abuse whether physical or emotional, I hasten to add. I don't know much about my mum's boyfriends before my dad but she's often said that he's the only man in the world she could ever trust or rely on so I think there may be some unpleasant back stories about others before she met him.

I'm far past the stage of thinking that I can change either my mum or F. Neither of them can be reasoned with and neither me nor anyone else in the family can intervene. My dad tried at least twice years ago. Once F was physically violent towards a woman (not my mum) and my dad wanted to throw him out, change the locks and call the police. Another time he was extremely verbally abusive to my mum at the dinner table beyond even his usual standards. On both occasions my mum actively prevented my dad from taking any action, blaming other family members for what had occurred and "creating splits in the family", blaming my dad for "overreacting", and treating F like a naughty little boy rather than the close to adult man he was.

Luckily I was a teenager and old enough to know that she and F were very much in the wrong and my dad was right (if not strong enough to follow through against my mum's will). These days my dad just bites his tongue and goes off to potter in the garden shed when F acts up.

Helltotheno is right about F holding the whole family to ransom. He does think he's the centre of the universe and entitled to far more than ordinary people. He would love to hear us admit that he was upsetting us, hurting us, disturbing us.

My mum thinks that if she keeps acting as though everything is normal, perhaps it will one day magically become so. Sigh.

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 28/04/2012 00:10

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry, it all sounds incredibly difficult to deal with.

Your mum's upbringing must have been quite traumatic really, of course it's going to affect the way she deals with family relationships and abusive behaviour.

For example, it's possible she subconsciously blames herself for her father leaving all the time, and now on some level she is determined not to do anything wrong that would cause another family member to leave her (abandonment issues, basically).

Of course that doesn't make it any easier for you, and you shouldn't have to put up with F's abuse yourself. But it does sound like your mum is really vulnerable. I would at least try to get her to come see you more often, it would also be a nice escape if F is in her house.

Anniegetyourgun · 28/04/2012 10:40

She's probably got it in her head that because of his very dysfunctionality he needs her more than the rest of you do.

Flyonthewindscreen · 28/04/2012 11:16

On a practical level, do any of your siblings have homes big enough that they could host some get togethers and then F could not be invited?

hathorkicksass · 28/04/2012 11:18

Stillawakeagain are you me?

StillAwakeAgain · 28/04/2012 11:52

hathorkicksass: It's funny and sad how you see the same patterns and stories repeating themselves across families and generations on the Relationships board isn't it?!

Dreaming Yes, my mum is very vulnerable in this particular situation although she can be formidable in other aspects of her life (e.g. professionally, before she retired). I've never seen any photos of her father but from what older relatives told me, I wonder if there's a physical resemblance to F too.

Anniegetyourgun Yes, I could believe this quite easily. She really does seem to think that there's something she can do which will make him 'good' if she persists with him.

Kamer None of us have homes anywhere near as big as my parents. One brother and wife have just bought somewhere that would fit most of us (if the singles don't mind sleeping on the sofabed and camp beds in the big living room...) so that may be an option once they finish doing it up. They'd never have F in their home.

My mum normally phones on Sundays and I will be asked about plans for the Bank holiday. Am still decided on the honest response and hoping she won't be too upset.

OP posts:
garlicnutter · 28/04/2012 14:19

Wow, go you Grin I'll be sending you "strong and sensible" vibes :)

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