The Freedom Programme

[Ice9116]

The health visitor has recommended I call women's aid and get onto their freedom programme - she thinks it may help me while DH is on his course. DH has contacted a centre called 'New Directions' which have a 20 week course for him he wants to join as I told him in no uncertain terms that DD will NOT grow up in this sort of environment. That centre also want to offer me counselling and a buddy which he says I can do but he will choose a buddy on my behalf (he screens all my friends).
Can anyone say if the Freedom Programme is good, bad or indifferent? I will have to take DD with me as nobody but me looks after her (cannot trust anyone in RL not to leave her with DH) and not tell DH where I am so it really has to be worth the trouble to go.
DD is only 13 weeks and in no danger from him atm as he doesn't acknowledge her existance but that is VERY harmful if it continues.

As well as the FP, really good reality check is to talk to respectphoneline - they do accreditation for DA perpetrator programmes and they have certainly heard it all before from the abusers who go on their programmes. So if you doubt what he is saying, are not sure if you are seeing the wood for the trees sound it out with them.
And don't let anyone scare you about anything happening to your DD. Ask for help and you will get loads of support from HV and other professionals. It's hard enough with a small baby and a supportive partner let alone with someone who is abusive.

Ice:

"The New Directions Service has an advice and information line dedicated to stopping men's violence against women.

"The telephone number is:
01223 366 745 or Office 01223 359 699."

From their website here.

I think you should call and tell them about your H's intention to choose your buddy for you.

I agree with others that the lack of confidence in your posts is terribly sad to see. No-one will take your baby, there is no-one for Womens Aid to 'report' you to, and you're fully entitled to the support you will receive from them :)

Please do give WA a ring, as well as New Directions ... and get yourself on that Freedom Programme!

All the best. I'm excited for the better times ahead of you. Just make a couple of phone calls: help is there, and it is help that's right for you.

Going to the Freedom Programme is evidence that you are actively trying to ensure healthy relationships around your child and that you are a good mother. It can't count against you.

Ice: would it help, regarding MN as a bunch of friends who care about you, then diarising/itemising what he does?

It would help writing it down
It would help being reassured you aren't mad/you aren't dreaming
MN is such a help in stuff like this.

You alright out there, Ice? Sending

I'm ok - phoned new directions and they have had their first meeting with him - he's agreed to the £20 per session fee (subsidised due to income and location) but there are 20 sessions and the counselling for me would be charged too so that's £400 straight off - and guess what? The £20 per week is coming out of the 'household' budget of £50 per week so where is the food coming from? And clothes for me and DD? And our activities? He says we can stop frittering away time and resources but we go to baby groups and buy food and go to swimming once a week... argh...

Haven't phoned WA as cannot possibly afford any more money and I couldn't face having hope offered and then taken as we can't afford it! Also, DH says he is going to sort it all out and if he finds out I am undermining him by doing anything to sort it myself he'll take DD . He did a trial run yesterday which fortunately lasted only 30 minutes as my LO was high pitched and screaming so I caught him but the feeling for that time was cold and horrible (my Dad watched her while I had a shower so he took her out the house)... Its not kidnap as he's he father but OMG I never thought he'd do that - he just sat there smirking about how he can just take her anytime and there's nothing I can do...

There bloody is something I can do - he will never ever ever take my baby or hurt her in anyway I just need to think of a plan...

What are you thinking, Ice? How can we support you- do you need information, ideas, courage?

Look, you need to pack a bag, grab your DD and go. WA will find you a refuge place, you need never see any of these people again, they are so horribly toxic. Your family are sustaining a pattern of abuse and backing up your disgusting shit of a husband: all of these people have harmed you and all of them are wrong. I expect your father has been abusing your mother, you and any sisters you may have throughout your life so you have absorbed the idea that men can punish women and force them to submit, no matter what - this is bullshit. You can live free of this man, he is an insignificant failure of a human being and can have no power over you once you decide to fight and walk away.
Best of luck.

My father never treated me or my sister like this - it is a pattern that has passed down from my Mum and the relationship she had with hers and the relationship my Nana's oldest sister had with her mother etc. I do not meet the expected standard that is all. I have come to terms with the relationship with my family and while sometimes it hurts generally its fine atm however, we are in a pressured situation as we had no option but to live with them for what has turned out to be a long time. If they knew what DH had exactly been doing they'd be on my side but he is clever and gentle and they've never seen combined with mental health history and some planting of ideas by him and the combination is that they are "supporting us being together". I want to get to a point that that's my choice rather than something imposed on me.

With regard to a plan over DH - the priority here is DD and her wellbeing what happens to me is secondary as I at least had some choice how I got here - I saw DH as a way out and someone who'd care for me not that I had to cook and clean for in order that he'd be satisfied with me...

DD is not currently at risk from DH - he is seeking help and going on this course, I am applying for p/t work not because I want to work but so I have money of my own and can get us savings for the house, I need to find out about tax credits and child benefit as I think both of those should be being paid to me (information?), DH wants to pay the bare minimum for DD so I will calculate what the CSA would give me if we split and demand it for her then no matter what he spends we can have money...

Bertie - I definately need courage, I want to be strong for DD but standing up to him takes guts... last time I demanded so much the consequenses were something special

Please ring Women's Aid. It doesn't cost a penny to call them and there's no charge for the Freedom Programme or its creche facility.

Ring WA. It's just a phone call, just listen to what they say. You don't have to give your name. If you don't accept what they say, you've lost nothing except 10 mins of your life.

Just ring.

Okay. I'm concerned because - you say he is seeking help and going on this course, so I'm guessing that you have hope he can change. I can see why you would hope that. The course exists, so some men must change as a result of it, this is true. However, it's a big ask, a really really big ask to expect someone to change their entire way of thinking and being. OP, you are a kind and caring person, I can tell that from your posts. Now imagine you were suddenly told "There is no place for kind and caring people in this society. You must become ruthless, selfish and hardened to violence" and then put on a course to try and learn this. I'd imagine that however much you wanted to fit into this new society, you would find this really hard, perhaps impossible.

It is possible for abusers to change, but more often than not they don't, unfortunately. There is a great book often recommended on Mumsnet called "Why Does He Do That?", it is written by a man who runs abuser programs. He has seen hundreds, maybe thousands of men come through them. The programme is their best hope of changing, but sadly, a lot of them don't make it, and one of the interesting things in the book is where he says that there are clear signs from the start as to which men are likely to come out with a new outlook, and which are likely to carry on as usual. Be warned, some men even get worse.

One of the biggest indicators about whether a man is going to change or not is for him to recognise his behaviour as wrong. Your DP isn't - in fact, since he's agreed to go on this course, he hasn't made any kind of effort to reign in his abusive nature at all, which is worrying. Just from this thread, since he's signed up for the course he's done the following:

Exerted control over who you see (insisting he will "choose" you a buddy)
Acting as though he gets to say what you're allowed to do ("allowing" you to do counselling as long as you fulfil his wishes re the buddy)
You cannot trust him to look after DD while you do this course
He continues to not acknowledge her existence
He grills you on what you've been talking about when you see friends (it's very likely he's expecting to be able to grill you on what you talk about in counselling, which will make it difficult for you to be honest with the counsellor)
Restricts your movement in ways such as preventing you from taking out money
He is gaslighting you ("Remembering things differently" - it is conscious and designed to make you think you are going mad)
You do not feel comfortable telling him you have access to help such as freedom programme or CBT
Puts you down and calls you "useless" (you most certainly aren't!)
Is expecting you to give up your baby groups, swimming etc in order for him to afford counselling, rather than making sacrifices himself
Telling you what to do with the "undermining" thing
This is the most chilling IMO - He has TAKEN your baby daughter, who you do not trust him with, solely in order to frighten and intimidate you into obeying him. She was screaming and unhappy and he didn't bring her back. He didn't care. His ONLY interest here was to frighten you.

The ONLY way you can keep your DD safe from him is to get both of you away from him. I am frightened for you. You said earlier in the thread that he doesn't "fit" into any one category of abuse - do you realise that even one item in those lists means that he fits that category - it would be extremely rare/unlikely for any one person to fit every single behaviour associated with physical, emotional or financial abuse. The fact he has traits spread over all of them is worrying.

He can still go and do his course - you can still go and do yours. If on the offchance it makes him into a wonderful, doting, caring father, you can always get back together. But after what he's done today, I don't see that he deserves to be given a chance while you stay with him. You cannot possibly watch DD 24/7. What might he do, in the name of keeping you in line? Once he's taken her a couple of times and you no longer panic because he always brings her back - then what?

Abuser programmes hardly ever work. The only sort of men they are likely to work on are men with aggression problems that are not specific to their partners: the sort of man who can't keep a job because he tends to hit out at colleagues and management every time they cross him or get in his way, the sort of man whose response to every situation that isn't pleasing to him is to attack whoever's in range. These men can often be taught better coping strategies and improved impulse control. Men who are charming to the wider world but abusive to their partners have a very, very deeprooted and unchangeable belief that their partners are 'women' ie domestic animals. They might 'love' them but at the end of the day, it's only a 'woman' and you have to keep it under control and in its place.
So this man feels fully entitled to do whatever he likes to you, whenever he feels like it: you exist to meet his needs and make him feel good.
Unfortunately your family seem to feel that you are someone who doesn't matter, who other people are entitled to control and punish, and they have at least partly convinced you this is true. IT IS NOT TRUE. You are just as lovable and valuable and important as other people, and you can reject this toxic situation and walk away any time you like. There is plenty of help and support out there. But forget about this horrible man. Don't waste any time or energy hoping he will change. He won't. Just get him out of your life as much as possible (supervised contact in a contact centre ONLY for DD, and all arrangements for that handled through a third party. This is the best way to get rid of such men because they either haven't got enough control of themselves to convince contact centre staff they are fit to look after DC, or when they find that they are utterly blocked from bothering you, they drift away in search of a new woman to destroy.)

Ice, this is awful. He is already abusing your daughter:

• He is using her as bait to trap you
• He is depriving her of food and baby group, to 'punish' you for wanting him to attend counselling.

Stop getting caught up in worrying about plans for the future, money, your family (a separate issue) and just worry about your daughter. Call Women's Aid. Tell them he's threatening to take your daughter from you. Tell them you have no money and you need to leave now. They will help you from there.

Seconding Berts's post. I hope you're still reading, Ice. Sending you good thoughts. Make some calls.

You need to take DD and go to a refuge, immediately.

He's not going to get any better. He's using the supposed pathway to non-abuse as yet another way to abuse you.

My H used to scare me by going off with my DD when she was a baby. I genuinely used to wonder if he was going to jump off a bridge with her. I think it's one of the worst types of abuses there is. It hurts you down to your soul. It can't get any better. He will just disappear for longer and longer - as you start getting numb to one particular strategy, he'll push it more and more to scare you further. Please go.

Hi ice you seem to have a hard life , hope you are able to still read these messages . Hun this is alot of abuse you are getting from what you say. Emotional and other. I wish you luck

Also - delete your internet history.

If he sees you asking for support / help and accessing websites we link to, he will flip out and the consequences will match, or perhaps go beyond the "something spectacular" of last time (which, incidentally sent chills down my spine)

He is abusing your DD because he is abusing you.

Social Services are more commonly referred to, by those in the trade, as Social Care. They care about you. They care about your daughter and they care that she reaches the full potential in her life. Staying as a couple, in the abusive household you currently reside will not enable her to reach her full potential.

By getting help, by getting FREE of him, Social Care will support you endlessly; they will help you get out of this situation.

Ice, he won't change. He's proved that already, by committing to the course and in the very next breath saying "oh but babe - the money will come out of our household pot, it will mean you can't do the TWO things you do a week [baby group and swimming] and we won't be able to eat, but hey babe - I'm changing."

Does that sound like change to you? Sure as hell doesn't sound like change to me!

It is as scary as the most scary thing in the universe to even THINK about leaving; how will I keep DD safe, how will I afford food/housing/everything, but let me tell you; the help available for fleeing women is great. Even going on state benefits for a few months won't kill you. It's difficult, yes, but it isn't impossible to survive on benefits (I've been there).

If talking to Womens' Aid is too scary, will you be safe if you access your local Children's Centre? The family support workers there will be trained to deal with DV and organise support for you; ask them to do the DASH form with you and they will stand by you, every step of the way.

Just remember - he won't change. He is lying; no matter how earnestly he tells you he will do the course and he will be fixed - he won't. He is using this as yet more ways to control you (by using the family money, by choosing who can "help" you).