WWYD - issue with XH and XMIL's driving (very long, sorry!)

[ArghWWYD]

NC for identifying details :)

My xMIL is a sweet, although tricky and complicated, woman who loves DS (4) more than anything in the world. DS adores her too and I am extremely grateful for the lovely relationship they have. She lives in Ireland, but visits several times a year. She would never hurt DS intentionally, but she is really very scatty, doesn't always concentrate and can be irresponsible. For those reason, XH and myself would never leave her to babysit DS for extended periods or overnight. I am actually slightly less vehement on that point than XH, but there is one thing I am absolutely adamant about - DS is never ever, ever allowed to be driven my her and I mean that. When we were still married, we drove over to Ireland to see her and XH made sure he always drove and somehow we've got to 4 years without actually telling her that neither of us want her to be at the wheel if DS is in the car.

She has a conviction for dangerous driving - overtaking on blind rise at 70mph causing a head-on collision which miraculously didn't kill anyone. She didn't lose her license at the time because she'd have lost her job, but got 11 (I think) points. She once drove XH and I to the airport (pre-DS) and I was genuinely scared for my life the whole way. I have never been so grateful to get out of a car and when we landed back in the UK, we got a call to say she'd had an accident and written the car off on the way back.

DS spends a lot of time with my mum and step-dad - at least 2 or 3 weekends a month and has had a week's holiday with them. XH is very happy with this, although we try keep it quiet from his mum obviously that he was on holiday with them. There are two of them vs one of her, my mum is 10 years younger and we're very happy with him being in a car with them. Anyway, my mum and step-dad very dearly wanted to take DS to Italy with them this summer where step-dad's daughter lives. XH said 'No' to the idea because he felt that DS was too young to leave the country without either one of us. My mum was very disappointed, but accepted she needed both our permission and that was that.

Last night, XH tells me that his mum is insisting (his words) that he visit in the summer for a long weekend with DS and she'll be paying for the flights. So far, fine, but XH says he can't afford to hire a car for the weekend so it'll be unavoidable that xMIL drives them to/from airport (over an hour) and they'll do loads of driving (visiting relatives) every day on country and steep windy roads over hills. I am really unhappy about this and so is XH but he is very reluctant to say anything to her. She will be very excited, quite manic in fact, and probably won't have slept when she would be collecting them and basically the idea sends shivers down my spine. My mum has offered to pay for the car hire, but I think that would be a bit strange?

I guess I could probably put my foot down over this (not sure if I could legally stop him taking him to Ireland) so ideally XH finds a way to get a hire car, although FIL has told us numerous horror stories about the hire cars not being safe so XH is pointing that out. It'd be really expensive (he has a thirsty big car) and take too long for him to drive over there.

How would you handle this?

Erm... is everyone missing something here? This is not just about the OP's son being at risk; what about other road users in her area? Everyone is at risk of death or serious injury if they happen across her driving dangerously. Basically, the exMIL should not be allowed behind the wheel, but it seems that no one is prepared to tell her the real reason for needing a hired car. Perhaps if it was spelled out clearly to her what the issue is, she might surrender her own licence and avoid risking other people's lives in the process.

And if your exH won't tell her, how about you doing so? What have you got to lose?

is it possible to report her as unsafe

Thanks everyone. Relieved that no-one thinks I'm being completely OTT about not wanting DS in the car with her, but I wouldn't get in a car with her for anything other than a 5 minute trip to the shops myself. I think she'd be horrified that we thought she was a bad driver but it is seriously terrifying and a bit of an ordeal. She has been driving for 40 whatever years and drives a reasonable distance every day, but she has also had probably 3 or 4 cars that I know of written off by insurance plus the dangerous driving conviction. Her license would have been taken away if it wasn't for her job. How she hasn't killed herself or someone else, I don't know. I'm not sure I could report her to the DVLA equivalent as presumably she'd have to actually be caught breaking a law and she hasn't had an accident for several years. Maybe day to day she's better and just much worse when we've been in the car with her. Problem is just total lack of concentration sometimes, which I think is made worse when she's excited.

FIL's driving is absolutely fine and I'd have no hesitation in him driving DS cross-country, but he and MIL split up a few years ago. He hates Ireland, hence the comments about the car hire I think. I am not too worried on that score at all.

XH doesn't want to do the ferry because he wants to keep trip as short as possible (am sure MIL would like him there for a week) and doesn't want to use up his holiday on it!

ScroobiousPip Very good point about the car seat! I didn't even think about that last night. I assume MIL will just buy one, although that's a waste and god knows what she'd buy and actually that could go towards car hire. Good point though and I'll point this out to XH.

ImperialBlether Unfortunately, I can't go to Italy with them for work reasons. They are going for the exact period where I am going to be more busy at work than I have ever been before. (We asked them to try take him away for that period, actually, but were thinking they'd go to Cornwall as we usually do that every year) I am not allowed to take any holiday at all from next month.

I think that the idea of putting him on the insurance would go straight out the window and he wouldn't be able to say anything.

I'll speak to him about this a bit more in a calmer fashion than last night as there is plenty of time to arrange something. Thanks again. And yes, if I have to even though he didn't tell my mum his decision about their trip, I'll tell her but really XH should be managing it as this is absolutely something we've always been in complete agreement about.

He doesn't want to do the ferry as he doesn't want to use up holiday or whatever - I'd be tempted to say tough. It sounds like he's relying on you to sort this out and he's not really prepared to do much at all.

He won't let your ds go away with your parents so I would put a stop to his trip
Tbh.
He needs to sort this out with Mil,
I would not be paying for car hire or anything to do with his trip.
He needs to man up in my opinion

Time to point out to your ExH that he is risking the good co-parenting relationship you have, and thus his son's happiness, for the sake of humouring his mother.

Point out that so far you have both successfully prioritised your son and what you feel is right for him over the feelings of other family members- you have respected his right of veto for the Italy trip. He is putting that mutual trust and respect at risk. And for nothing - because you certainly won't back down- unless he speaks to his mother and gets this sorted, you will regretfully veto in return.

He is, also, beginning to tread a very dangerous path, in that his reluctance to stand up to his mother brings in the possibility that he would lie to you about your son in order to keep her happy. You have niggling doubts now that he would keep to your joint decision when you aren't around. That's FATAL for your coparenting relationship - once trust is gone it's gone, and once you start to believe that he isn't enough of a parent to put your son FIRST at all times, things will deteriorate. As you are the parent with care that's likely to impact on him more than you long-term, and of course on your son.

Tell him to take a good long look at how he wants the future to pan out and realise that it's time to stand up to his mother.

Your ex sounds a bit wet, OP. Is that the reason you and he split up?

OK so I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask you how you'd feel if you heard in due course that she'd had another accident, and killed someone. Would you be able to rest easy that you'd done everything you could to keep her off the roads? Because basically, all you've done so far is, knowing she's dangerous behind the wheel, is to pledge not to endanger your own son by finding reasons for her not to drive him, in order not to hurt her feelings. That's been fine (up until now) but doesn't solve the wider issue of protecting other road-users.

doctordwt Very good points too, thank you.

ImperialBlether That would be one way to very succinctly sum it up and it was me who called time, obviously :)

clam Realistically though, what could I do? I don't know about Irish law, but I imagine the courts would need a very good reason for taking away someone's license permanently. So I call them up and then what? Are they going to send a policeman round to her house every day to trail her until they see her break the law? She'd have to do something pretty bad for them to be able to do anything and like I say, she hasn't had an accident since that last one several years ago so from a legal point of view, it'd simply be my opinion that she drives too fast and doesn't concentrate. I haven't been in a car where she's been driving for almost 5 years and I don't live in the country. None of that would be good enough for anyone to act.

No, I guess not. It's just that I was reading this morning about that dreadful fatal crash on that bridge in Yorkshire at the weekend (cause as yet unknown although an elderly driver was involved). One of the locals was interviewed as saying there had been numerous accidents on that stretch of road but that the authorities would not impose lower speed limits or deem it a blackspot because no one had died. Yet. Maybe now they'll revise that view.

I'm so sure that someone needs to have a specific accident in order for them to be reported to the DVLA. For example if you suspect someone has bad eyesight or has dementia and this gives them a problem then you can report them.

Surely her accident record would raise red flags and it would be investigated, also she might be on some kind of medication that makes her reckless? Try looking at the DVLA website and see what you can do.

As others have said, it's not just your DS that you are protecting but any other road users too.

Sorry. "I'm NOT so sure that someone......"

If she is in Ireland then DVLA rules dont apply.

I wouldn't go as far as clam, but I think you (or exH) should tell her that you don't want her to drive your son, and why. this is not just a feeling - she has had accidents, more than most people, not through crazy coincidence. I know you don't want to hurt her, and it could be done as sensitively as possible, but you need to tell the truth because a. that is the only way that there is no workaround and she somehow ends up driving your son anyway, because she has solved your made up cover "problem", and b. it might make her think about her driving and that might be a good thing for the world in general.

I have hired cars in Ireland, with a car seat. It's fine.

the Italy thing is a red herring isn't it? this is nothing to do with your not wanting ds to go away, just not wanting him to be unsafe. Fair enough.

I live in Ireland myself. Whilst there are laws, the gardai are slow to enforce them due to lack of resources. I have seen people driving over here with children in a car without a seat belt and getting away with it. This is a country where it is normal to drive unattended whilst on your provisional licence and nothing is done about it. Or at least not much anyway.

Unfortunately, it seems that if you do let your ds go then your xMIL is going to end up driving unless your ex decides to finally grow a pair. That leaves you in the horrible position of having to play the bad guy and putting your foot down with the ex or putting up with xMIL driving against your wishes.

Said seat belt - just to clarify - the children were hopping about in the back of the car, no seat belt, no car seat in sight and nobody stopping them either. Thankfully most normal Irish people are not like that lol.