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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Male/female friendship dilemma - WWYD?

50 replies

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 16:48

Namechanged for this, btw. Sorry it's so long!

I left my last job 3 years ago, but have remained close friends with 3 former colleagues there - 2 female, 1 male. The male is like a brother to me. We hit it off right from when he interviewed me (he's the HR manager) and have always had loads in common. It's definitely an "intellectual chemistry", not physical/sexual, but we're on the same wavelength, have extremely similar worldviews and experiences. I can talk to him about anything and he's one of a handful of friends in this area I know I could always count on, no matter what...

4 years ago, he was a huge support to me in leaving my violent, abusive ex. He provided moral support, but also lent me money when I was struggling and both he and my boss were absolutely fantastic about supporting me through the whole thing. There has never been anything untoward between us. No physical contact and no emotional affair. Nothing. Just a great friendship.

We would occasionally have lunch together next to the office (often with other colleagues around, so not sneaking around or anything, as we had nothing to hide) and whenever he had a meeting in my building (or viceversa), we'd take 10 minutes to grab a coffee in the break room together (I was in a managerial position, so no pb taking a break). Again, almost always with other people around. Sometimes during quiet periods, we'd chat on the phone or via e-mail, but once again, nothing intimate or inappropriate. Pretty similar to my female friends really. Occasionally he would reply to his emails from home, but I never used his personal e-mail address or phone number, just the professional ones.

However, one weekend (the day after I had my ex arrested for battery!) I had an irate phone call from his wife, telling me to stay away from her husband and that he had no business communicating with female colleagues outside of work. That she'd already been through one divorce and didn't want to go through all that again, so she was very wary of her husband having friendships with women!

So I backed off! I didn't want to cause any trouble for him so even though we remained friends, I made sure that we only ever saw each other as part of a group. And was careful only to chat to him during working hours. Since I've left the firm, we've met up for lunch 3 times in 3 years, had coffee twice when I popped into the firm for administrative stuff and exchanged e-mails every few weeks.

Last night he called me, quite distraught, to tell me his marriage is pretty much over (second marriage for both of them, married for around 8-9 years and they have 5 kids between them). They're living separate lives under the same roof and barely speaking to each other. He sounded really down and said he needed to share it with someone as he's not coping well.

He wants to meet me for lunch next week, but herein lies my dilemma:

  • on the one hand he has been a good friend to me over the past 6 years and supported me through some pretty tough times and I feel I owe it to him to support him now it's his turn to be struggling.
  • but, on the other hand, if his wife is spying on him, I don't want here thinking I'm somehow involved in any separation/split. I'd hate her to think I'm the "OW" (which women automatically seem to assume is the case when a man wants to separate), and I don't want her naming me in a divorce case for adultery, when that's obviously not true.

So what should I do? Meet him for lunch and give him the support he needs, or stay out of the way to avoid making things worse for them? I'm just so torn and I need objective opinions from the wise women of MN... WWYD?

OP posts:
OldLadyKnowsNothing · 05/04/2012 17:44

Can't be doing...

FateLovesTheFearless · 05/04/2012 17:45

WWID? I would never have backed off in the first place! The wife has issues, that's up to her and himself to sort out. IMO you made yourself look bad to the wife by backing off, confirming to her that you may have been up to no good with the husband.

There is absolutely no question what I would do. I would meet him and support him. That's what friends do.

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 17:45

fussbucket his wife doesn't know my address (in fact neither does he, as I moved recently) and I don't know theirs, although I know roughly which suburb of our city they live in!

He's the one person who's always been there for me in recent years and I'd feel terrible letting him down. But I just don't want to make things worse for him Confused

OP posts:
freeforall · 05/04/2012 17:50

OldLady, I don't want to control or be controlled by anyone either, but when I say "Had a nice day Dear?" would expect to be told yes, saw Dilemma for a coffee, it was good to catch-up. And if he knows his DW won't like it so deliberately doesn't mention it then that is deceitful, if not literally lying IMO.

Not the OP's problem, but could well be contributing factor to the situation she finds herself in now.

fussbucket · 05/04/2012 17:51

Then support your friend. You mentioned some other friends earlier, perhaps you could all meet for lunch as a group? She can't possibly assume he's having affairs with all three of you even if she is following him!

Charbon · 05/04/2012 17:54

I've been in this situation more than once, but much as it would have been easier to put the blame on a 'possessive, controlling' partner I've always been of the view that adults make their own choices about their friendships. It's not that a partner won't 'let' the person have friends - it's that the friend accepts that sort of relationship and chooses to drop or keep friends accordingly. That's their problem to own and it's not my place to blame someone else for being jealous - maybe they've got good reasons to feel that way?

So hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I would have reassured the wife that it was a platonic friendship, but that you would only cease the friendship if that's what he wanted and told you himself. The 'psychological contract' after all was with him and not with his wife. I personally find it very hard to respect people who drop their friends on someone else's say-so, but I won't allow them to hide behind or blame someone else for their decisions and makes me disrespect them more for trying to do that "It's not me, it's my wife" thing.....

You didn't stop contact anyway by the sounds of things, because although it's been a bit diluted, you've remained in sporadic touch, despite what his wife said.

So I'd agree to see him, but make it quite clear that this is his choice and that you are unwilling to take any more angry calls from his wife, so you'd prefer it if he was honest with her about your meeting.

I do think it's possible that he has a sexual and romantic interest in you though, because it's not very likely that any of us would choose an old work colleague with whom contact has been sparse, to offload our marital difficulties is it?

Then there's your feelings towards him. If he'd been single and you'd been single, could something have happened? Is there any attraction on your part at all? Best to be honest about that and not in any denial.

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 17:56

Hang on free, we weren't hanging out in Starbucks or anything! It was a 50p instant coffee from an automat, in the corridor/break area in the middle of an office building! I can't imagine anyone goes home and tells their SO about every single cuppa and who they chatted to by the coffee machine each day Confused

OP posts:
SkinnedAlive · 05/04/2012 17:58

I think it is good she does not have your address. But the fact you said you worried about being named in a divorce etc suggests you believe she could be vindictive. She sounds a controlling nightmare and a bit unhinged. Unhinged people do weird things and if she thinks you were OW once - enough to call you and be abusive on no evidence at all - then she may again. I would say in general support your friend 100% - it is his business who he speaks to and who he doesn't. BUT - if she is a bit of a harriden - do you worry she will start calling you and e-mailing you at all times of the day or night? If you are on the electoral register can she find your address even though you have moved? When feelings are hurt it can be easy to lash out at the person you think is to blame - and if she thinks you are OW then things could get nasty. If you hadn't said about being named in court and that she hadn't called before then I would say support your friend -but you have and it sounds as if she may not be nice if she finds out.

freeforall · 05/04/2012 18:04

Dilemma, you're starting to get defensive now, you said you'd had lunch a few times over the last 3 years, that's what I'm referring to. Does his wife know about those, or the emails? I think it wold be usual to mention having lunch with some one you hadn't seen for a year or so, yes.

I've no idea what the actual story is here, but there are a lot of similarities with what happened to me and your story keeps changing....

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 18:06

Then there's your feelings towards him. If he'd been single and you'd been single, could something have happened? Is there any attraction on your part at all? Best to be honest about that and not in any denial.

Good question. I'm not sure because I've never really thought about it. When we first met, we were both married, so it wasn't an issue. I've been single for the past 4 years apart from a couple of catastrophic dates with guys I met online.

He's very different from they type of guy I usually go for and there's no physical attraction on my end. But that said, I think I've been traumatised by my ex, because I haven't been physically attracted to anyone at all since we split :(

I have no idea if he would have been (or even is) attracted to me, as I've never met his wife, have no idea what his 'type' of woman is or what he would look for in someone. It's just not something we've ever discussed!

OP posts:
Charbon · 05/04/2012 18:12

Really?

Must be just me then who could tell myself instantly if I 'would' or 'wouldn't' shag someone, if the circumstances were right Grin

Tbh, I always tend to know if someone's interested in me in that way too.

If you genuinely don't know and have honestly never thought about it, then be prepared for the possibility that he fancies you, and/or that you'll fancy him. I'm not saying that will definitely happen, but it's statistically possible and IME, fairly probable in reality.

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 18:15

free I'm honestly not trying to be defensive and I can't see where my story has changed at all since I started the thread Confused. Maybe you're projecting your own experience onto mine, as I've tried to be extremely honest and give all the facts, to allow other MNers to get as clear a picture as possible, in the hope of getting some objective advice!

I really don't think there's any sneakiness been going on at all! I've had much bigger fish to fry recently with my abusive ex, messy divorce, negative equity/short sale on house, DC with serious health problems etc. that I honestly didn't want to be mixed up in someone else's marital problems and have angry wives chasing me on top of everything else! It was easier just to back off, see less of each other and focus on my own problems...

Where I work it's common for colleagues to eat lunch together. There are lots of cafes around the offices and most people pop out for a salad and a chat - either to catch up with colleagues you're friendly with or discuss department things with your own team members. Sometimes I ate lunch with my secretary, my boss or friends from other departments. Sometimes just one person, sometimes a large group... no ulterior motives, that's just the culture round here.

OP posts:
dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 18:19

Must be just me then who could tell myself instantly if I 'would' or 'wouldn't' shag someone, if the circumstances were right
Lol, charbon

He isn't repulsive to me, but I can't say I'm particularly attracted to him either. I've never tried to imagine shagging him :o

Like I said in my first post, he's like a brother, so it would feel very wierd if he did try anything on with me Shock

OP posts:
freeforall · 05/04/2012 18:21

Dilemma, I don't for a minute think you've been sneaky, but I do think he has, for reasons he (and you) sees as justifiable, but that I doubt his wife would.

Your story changes from emails every few weeks to 4-5 times a year and from occasional lunches to coffee from a machine. Of course it's common for colleagues to have lunch, but he has't been your colleague for some time? I'm not saying you shouldn't, not at all, but I do think it would be unusual for none of those meetings to have been mentioned to his wife.

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 18:24

Actually, thinking about it, my friends who have met his wife have all said she has supermodel looks (one friend calls her "the pin-up")! She's apparently tall, blonde and skinny (no, it's not Samantha Brick :o) and a dead ringer for Claudia Schiffer!

So that's probably why it's never occurred to me that he would be attracted to plain old ordinary-looking me... Blush

OP posts:
dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 18:27

Your story changes from emails every few weeks to 4-5 times a year and from occasional lunches to coffee from a machine. Of course it's common for colleagues to have lunch, but he has't been your colleague for some time? I'm not saying you shouldn't, not at all, but I do think it would be unusual for none of those meetings to have been mentioned to his wife.

Well 4-5 times a year is every 7-8 weeks, which I consider to be "a few". And I said 3 lunches in 3 years, plus a couple of coffees. The posts are still there if you go back and read them... Nothing incoherent that I can find Confused

OP posts:
dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 18:36

Oh and sorry if this is drip-feeding, but I actually left that job to go freelance and I still do odd bits of contracting work for them, hence popping in from time to time for administrative stuff which is when I've had the coffees with him.

OP posts:
TeaTeaLotsOfTea · 05/04/2012 18:36

Support him.

She can't name you in the divorce unless its true that you've had an affair as that is slanderous.

He's your friend. it doesn't matter if your friend is male or female he needs your support.

Just because his wife can't differentiate between the two isn't his fault.

camaleon · 05/04/2012 18:41

I would not make a difference between him and how you woulld react with a female friend with a husband with issues regarding contact with other human beings.

You see him as your friend, behave as one.
Freeforall, I am not sure what your problem is here

SaraBellumHertz · 05/04/2012 18:52

Support him. He did the same for you.

freeforall stop projecting, the OP has done nothing wrong.

DinahMoHum · 05/04/2012 19:01

id meet him and see what you think from there

dilemmarama · 05/04/2012 19:59

Thanks everyone. The consensus would seem to be to have lunch with him, so I've replied to his e-mail saying I can do lunch next Tuesday or Wednesday. I plan to strongly suggest we eat in a sandwich place round the corner from his office, so it's obvious we've nothing to hide, just in case his wife is checking up on him...

And now I've had time to calm down and think about it all, regardless of my own confusion and dilemma, I'm actually really sad for him that he has to go through all this again :(
My own separation and divorce was such a traumatic experience for my kids and me that I really hate to see my friends having to suffer the same way :(

OP posts:
GingerBlondecat · 06/04/2012 10:37

Go support your Brother (friend), he needs all the friends he's got in times like this.

dilemmarama · 10/04/2012 14:29

An Update: Had lunch with him today and it went well! He didn't try anything on with me and apparently just wanted to talk. He looked pretty rough :(

I did give him a bit of a lecture about not making the same mistake as last time (i.e. looking for a new partner before leaving the old one and jumping straight into a new relationship)! He said he realises he needs some time living alone, but he's also terrified as he hasn't lived on his own in 20 years...
I told him he can rely on me and our other friend for company and moral support and he texted me after I got home to thank me for saying that.

His partner (they're apparently not legally married, but have been living together for 9 years) seems to accept that it's over and he's going to suggest putting the house up for sale at the end of the school year.

We'll probably have lunch again in a couple of weeks, when things are less busy professionally for both of us.

So thank you all for the good advice. I'm glad I listened to the wise women of MN and decided to go. Even though I'm sad he's going through this, I'm happy to be there for him after he was so kind and supportive of me when I went through the same thing!

OP posts:
LadyClariceCannockMonty · 10/04/2012 15:28

You sound like such a good friend, OP. I think he's lucky to have you!

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