Can love conquer all?

[Peppin]

Do you believe that if 2 people love each other, they can work anything out? Or do you think sometimes you have to accept that even though you both love each other, you simply can't make your relationship work?

Have been with DP for 2.5 years. He's not bothered about having his own kids but is brilliant with mine. We're both in our mid-30s, and live about an hour apart. I have my own home and he currently lives in a shared house. My kids love him and he is an important part of their lives: every weekend he arrives on Friday night and stays until Monday morning.

For a long time, I have wanted us to move in together. He's always said he does too, but there has always been a reason why it couldn't be quite yet.

I've felt that this constant delaying is insincere, i.e. that the real issue isn't the logistics/timing, but that he is not sure about the relationship. He has admitted that he does have doubts - these are to do with the fact that I have a very strong personality and he is quite gentle and feels I can be abrasive when I should be soothing and sympathetic. There is truth in this. I am just not as "nice" a person as he is.

This weekend, it came to a head over the most trivial thing on Friday night - a comment that he took exception to, and stormed out with all his stuff, declaring the relationship over. I was devastated. I saw him yesterday (he'd left behind some things he needed for work) and he looked miserable and said he'd never loved anyone as much as me and didn't want our relationship to be over but felt he could not commit to me without some "security" for himself first.

I don't know what to do now because I love him, I think he loves me, and I feel that if I tell him I want us to make it work, he will probably agree to move in and give it a go. But nothing has actually changed overnight, and so the reservations he has had up to now would still be there, albeit he would be repressing them to "give it another go". I can't believe that overnight, the relationship I have hoped would be "the one" for 2.5 years can just end. But maybe if it is never going to work, I should just accept that now?

What should I do?

Peppin, that is the whole point

they shouldn't be this hard

Cross posted!!

You could ask for his help and see it as a joint project. But don't compromise who you are to hold on to him.

I wouldn't ask for "help" in modifying my personality from someone who has issues of needy, immature and drama-queen-like behaviour

it sounds like he is the one more in need of "help"...OP's reactions to the way he interacts with her seem entirely appropriate to me

Reading the thread again it sounds like there are two separate issues.
One is that this man doesn;t want to move in with or marry you, and if your relationship has been like this for a long time - you nagging for commitment and him dragging his feet - then no wonder you're being a bit snappy. However, better to dump him than keep pressuring him to commit, if he doesn't want to then he doesn't want to, and if you finally get him to do so, it will be chucked back at you every time you row.

The other aspect is whether or not you're too 'abrasive'. Sometimes people say this about women who refuse to 'perform femininity' ie defer to men and take care of other people's needs ahead of their own. But sometimes, some individual women are too rude, too aggressive in asserting their viewpoint; women can be selfish bullies. I don't know which you are, though you don't sound particularly aggressive or bullying in your posts. But it might be worth exploring this either on your own or with some counsellor or other but not for the sake of a couple-relationship with a man who's not that keen anyway.

Love does not conquer all and I think relationships that are this hard work in the early stages are a big pain in the arse.

If you had a decade of history and shared kids, then a period of stress or whatever would be worth riding out. But just 2.5 years and you don't even live together? I'd prefer to be on my own than this.

I don't think relationships should be hard. I think life is hard and that can put strain on relationships but actually, if life is ok generally and the relationship is still crap, that's a bad sign.

Oh, and be wary of deciding your 'rough edges' are a problem because your family and other partners have said so.

I have a pretty grim family and have also chosen people similar as friends or partners in the past (and still have a tendency to at times despite all my counselling and insights, sometimes I go straight back to what I know best). So yes, there is a theme to the things they criticised about me. Because they share a similar judgey tendency with an issue about expressing anger. But I have learnt that it is not necessarily my emotions at fault but their inability to deal with/accept emotion.

Maybe you are too abrasive or maybe you tend to pick people who see any assertiveness as being too abrasive?

i think youve got different ideas of commitment. I think its fair if hes not sure about moving in (yet?) to hold off. Its not an essential part of a relationship to live under the same roof.

fwiw, me and my partner have seperate houses.
My dad and his partner of 15 years have never lived together.

i think you need to decide whether its him you want, or just someone to live with.

Peppin i thought about your thread today and wanted to come back to say, perhaps you should try to separate the relationships from any interpersonal problems you sense within yourself, and try to weigh them up separately.

and then i came back here to say that, and saw someone else had! :) i think that's very good advice.

i shared what i did because (iirc) you mentioned somewhere that you had had complaints from others about how you came across. i identified with that. maybe there is something there for you to explore, but you can do that when this is over and you have some headspace to yourself. it sounds like this guy isn't the one for you, but maybe you'll end up learning from the experience and it will be positive in the end.

AnyFucker i wanted to also say: i was raised in a narcissistic family and therefore had some very warped ideas about life and relationships (as do many many people i think). after some reflection i could clearly see that my particular issue/s could be "cured" by learning some humility (i.e., accepting that i wasn't superior to other people, and could indeed learn from others sometimes - these ideas were ludicrous to me once). but obviously that "cure" isn't a panacea; it was something I needed in a very specific way.

the OP has her own path to tread and she may very well need a different "antidote" to what i did (if she needs any "antidote" at all!). i only offer my experience as a possible model for others who identify a personal blind spot & want ideas about how to address it somehow.

i am not saying the OP should "humble herself before her man" or some such rubbish. just so that is completely clear! i appreciate that the word "humility" has become loaded these days, what with our [mostly healthy] love of individualism and personal empowerment, but i think it does represent some very good things too

oikopolis I am not ignoring you, I simply did not think your (I accept it as possible ) solution this OP's dilemma was to develop more humility, modify her own behaviour, overlook his passive-agressive acting out and dismiss his avoidance of intimacy by any childish means possible

I think she should be taking more notice of his actions, not less

by concentrating on her own responses, and literally walking on eggshells around him, she will miss the non-verbal cues he is giving her

I am not taking anything away from how you have improved your own relationships, I am happy if you found something that works for you

in the context of this thread, however, I think your advice was misplaced

I hope you don't see this reply as combative, but since you have twice spoken to me directly, I thought it only good manners to reply with more of my own reasoning

Bottom line, if something is this much hard work, it isn't worth it and definitely not appropriate to go down the road of changing yourself into something that can deal with it better

where will that take you ?

not to a good place, that is for sure

AF (well, EF now) no worries, i didn't think you were ignoring me or that you are/were being combative! i thought you didn't understand my post, and was therefore also concerned the OP didn't understand it. was trying to clarify by piggy-backing off your post. which i am now going to do again :)

i didn't say that the OP should develop humility. i said that was what i needed to do personally.
i was talking more about if she wanted to explore her personal weaknesses (of any kind), here's an idea of how to do it, sort of thing.

i agree introspection is ideally done alone. i managed to do it while partnered, but my partner is no problem child. OP's partner, not so much, it sounds like

like you i'm not trying to be combative, like i said, i'm more panicking a bit that i'm coming across all wrong and now the OP is going to go out to buy her hair shirt etc.

I used to think love conquered all and was going to have a tattoo of the latin translation .I have now recovered my senses and take what I consider to be a more realistic approach

I do have to say I cannot imagine modifying my behaviour for a man - having spent 8 years resisting my abusive Ex-ps attempts to shape me into the sort of obedient girlfriend he thought I should be (one who didn't argue back, and accepted he was right and I was wrong, etc) I actually feel really uncomfortable at the idea.

From your posts you don't sound very abrasive.

at oikopolis

look at what hatesponge just said. I agree with it entirely. Which is why I questioned your approach, because it seemed to suggest that because you had changed yourself into a softer, more malleable person that it would work for her, in this situation

although, as I have said many times, I credit the users of MN with more emotional intelligence than to take one post and immediately apply everything in it to their own life....in other words I very much doubt that OP is searching for a hair shirt online as we speak

nor is she practicing saying "you suck, arsehole, there is the door now use it" in the mirror either

I used to modify my behaviour for men, initially for my father (that never worked)

then for one further man in particular (that never worked either, and managed to fuck me up for a while)

so I have an aversion to women changing their behaviour for anyone

An unswerving commitment to mutual respect is what is needed. At least that way if love goes cold you won't get treated like poop on someone's shoe.

It has to be mutual. Otherwise you are veering into doormat territory.

Either he loves you, or he loves someone who looks like you. If he loves an imaginary someone who looks like you then there isn't really love anyway. If he loves an imaginary someone else who exists in his head and goes on dealing with you day to day, then he doesn't respect you much.

yes. agree that changing yourself "for" someone is a v shit idea. perhaps the shittest idea of all time. it is a solitary pursuit, if it's to be undertaken at all.

and yes. i am overestimating my influence over the OP. :)
luckily for the world at large, i have no mind control abilities

heh, neither do I, or there would be carnage across the land

there would certainly be very many fewer dickhead men getting treated like kings (talking generally now)

coming at this from another angle (and not denying anything anyone else is saying but focussing on what jumped out at me):

you own your own home and have a stable, set up life. he lives in a shared house. if he moves in with you it won't be like setting up home with an equal it will be him putting all of his eggs in your basket - your home, your kids, your life etc.

i reckon that's what is holding him back by the sounds of what he said about needing his own security before moving in.

is this saying you're abrasive really a big thing or just something you've latched onto as a reason OP? if it's a big thing and you do feel he's trying to change you then obviously that's a problem but i do wonder if maybe actually the real issue is his sense of vulnerability at being the one with nothing and perceiving you as the one with all the power and him being hyper sensitive due to that - am wondering if your comment that he kicked off about was anything that would link to this.

apologies if i'm way off track but that was what jumped out at me.

"you own your own home and have a stable, set up life. he lives in a shared house. if he moves in with you it won't be like setting up home with an equal it will be him putting all of his eggs in your basket - your home, your kids, your life etc.

i reckon that's what is holding him back by the sounds of what he said about needing his own security before moving in."

This is exactly the scenario I had with my late fiance. He wanted marriage, we were expecting our first child, but didn't live together.

He used to mention his security too. This is what was holding him back from moving into my house. I could understand what he meant by this. He also had his "community" where he lived and would be moving right away from it, to another county where he would have to start again. He would also have to start his business from scratch again. These are all things which would make someone feel insecure.

The way we were dealing with this, was to try to find a fair and equitable route which would protect everyone. I too needed my security. Not just have to hand over half my house to him if we ever divorced. I also had one child from a previous relationship and had to look out for him also.

But that's by the by - all I can suggest is that you both just talk and talk and if your relationship is any good, you should be able to find that middle road. I personally don't think that he should be moving in while there are so many doubts and, to my mind, not so much honesty between the two of you.

ah, you see my thoughts on this "security" thing are the other way around

it would be me that was thinking very carefully about moving someone in who brings much less "collateral" to the relationship

I would be protecting "my house" and and "my stable set up"

if it goes tits-up, the OP may have to give up more than him financially, a claim on her house, eg

whereas what does he give up ?

a room in a shared house...that is easy enough to go back to and carries much less financial risk

so his talk of "security", to me, is a bit of a red flag

OP...ask him exactly what he expects you to do to make him feel more "secure"...sign half your house over ?

swallowedAfly - what you've said about his security thing is spot on as he has often said the same himself. He wants to buy a property at the momeny but can only afford to do so with his much younger brother and is fixated on doing this. Thinks this will be his "security". But in reality will involve months and months of renovation work (they're looking for a doing-up property) which he plans to do himself "in the evenings and at weekends". At the moment we only see each other at weekends and in the week he doesn't even leave work before 8-9pm, so I'm not sure how he thinks this property investment thing is going to fit in with his job and our relationship (if we still have one). In brief, I take his obsession with this to be a clear sign that, as far as he's concerned, if something has to fall by the wayside, it's our relationship.

I can't help the fact that I have my own property and have 2 kids - that hasn't changed since we met either, so it's not as though he didn't know what the set-up would be.

As to any issues over my security if he were to move in, I've been through a bad divorce, rebuilt my life, and am now a solicitor. We'd have a co-habitation deed if he (or anyone else for that matter) were to move in so it wouldn't be a problem. Sad but necessary!

Glad to hear it, peppin

of course you can't help it

tricky though isn't it?

i've advised a woman on here to think carefully before about moving in with a man and his children to his house with an agreement in place such as you are suggesting. she would have been paying into the household obviously as she should but her money would be going nowhere towards her future re: if they split up ten years later she'd have no home, no security etc.

not saying she should have gotten his property but that by putting herself in a position where she wasn't paying into her own future she was making herself vulnerable in later life. does that make sense? as in if at that point she bought her own place and was channeling all of her money into that over those ten years she'd be in a very different position.

it's hard for people to be at different stages in life. in her case i could see the sense whereby actually it would be better not to move in together unless they made the formal commitment of marriage but he didn't want to do that as it would risk his property. could understand both but a bit of a stalemate really.

we live complicated lives eh?