H and I went for counselling for the first time yesterday, and everything feels 100 times worse

[feelokaboutit]

Is this normal? We got the chance to air some issues but not to learn now to deal with them iyswim, so I feel like we have opened a can of worms without having the tools for dealing with any of our feelings. H has retreated into his usual total silence and ostracism of me whereas he had spent the week up to the counselling appointment (which was the very first appointment where they gather information about you) being civil. I feel manipulated. It is as if he thought I would walk into the appointment and go, oh no, everything's fine...
I asked him if he wanted a cup of tea today and he said "leave it". I walked into the kitchen and apparently, when ds asked him "leave what?", he said "being stupid". Have butterflies in my stomach. We are now on the waiting list for a regular counsellor now. Don't know how long that will take or if h will eventually go with me, have a feeling he won't (though having said (during the appointment) that he didn't think it would help, he then at the end seemed to agree he would go), but don't know how on earth I am going to cope with the intervening weeks, or if the counselling will help us at all .

The best thing I can think about that idealistic bit is that the counsellor dangled bait at him and he jumped, so now she knows he is a person who prefers to feel right than to be kind, and also someone who likes to pin blame on someone else and avoid taking responsibility himself.

The fact that he latched on to it so fast and enthusiastically -- like shooting fish in a barrel.

Alternatively, your counsellor is a neat freak and has underlying sympathy for people who don't like mess and this is blinkering her.

Thanks for all your thoughts. I think h is controlling. I was also today thinking about the possibility of aspergers type traits, but if that were the case, that's even more of a reason to think nothing is ever going to change??
I have damaged the relationship as well. In the session, h said I undermined him with the children and that I wanted to be number one with them. I think the number one thing may have been true when they were smaller, but don't know to what an extent that was because there has always been a power struggle between us and I have found him bossy and yes, controlling.
The dangling bait is an interesting thought, but it seems a lot to think she could have set that one up? Any undermining that has taken place is because I sometimes think he can be totally unreasonable and will say so. But yes I am not perfect. I would like to get to a place where we can both admit and talk about the damaging things we have done / said.
No the counsellor didn't ask h if he had an idealised picture of a relationship . In that way it seemed very random and possibly damaging to say it to me. She was quite fixated on the fact that h was my first relationship, which yes is slightly odd (I was 26 when we met) but surely not unheard of?
H is convinced that I have now outgrown him as a father figure (he is 12 years older than me) and that is why all this has come up. This is true to a certain extent, but if we could find a way to communicate on an equal level, I would certainly be up for building something new and different.

Thanks also for your message spendthrift, it's good to hear that you made it.

I would see if your own counsellor knows anything about aspergers - he or she may not, but if they don't, they may be able to read up a bit and help you. It's a very specialist area, but in your case worth finding out about.

OP, feel free to pm me.

'I have damaged the relationship as well. In the session, h said I undermined him with the children and that I wanted to be number one with them. I think the number one thing may have been true when they were smaller, but don't know to what an extent that was because there has always been a power struggle between us and I have found him bossy and yes, controlling.'

Since he does come across as controlling, I would say he was in fact jealous when the children were smaller that they seemed to be more inclined to be 'your' children than his, and the 'undermining' accusation means in fact that he resents you having an opinion that goes contrary to his -- I suspect he expected that in case of a conflict you should defer to him.

Don't be so quick to accept his accusations as the truth.

'Any undermining that has taken place is because I sometimes think he can be totally unreasonable and will say so. But yes I am not perfect.'

And neither is he, and you have as much right to an opinion as he does. Is it possible he didn't want to hear your opinions?

If someone fancies himself as the grand high poobah of all he surveys, the fount of all wisdom on all things home and child related, of course he is going to resent it and sulk when it turns out that someone else doesn't share his high opinion of himself.

'H is convinced that I have now outgrown him as a father figure..'

So what is he going to do about that? Or does he want you to get back in line?

Does he mean that he saw himself as some sort of father figure to you?

Watch out for projection here on his part.

Thanks for your recent messages rather, spendthrift and mathanxiety.

Thanks mathanxiety, you've helped me feel better. H used to sometimes, as a joke , refer to himself as God so he may well see himself as "the grand high poobah of all he surveys" . The father figure comment of his was more a reference to the reality of how things have been / were between us. His comment seemed to imply that if we split it will be because I no longer need (want) that kind of interaction. What I then wish I had said is that yes, it is true that I have this odd feeling that I am ready to "leave home" similar to when you move away from your parents, but that if h and I manage to sort out something different between us, then of course my kids' happiness and our family life is more important.

I hope that if we do go back for the regular counselling, the counsellor helps us to focus positively on the kind of life we would like together rather than negative stuff which it hurts the other one to hear. I know there's a fine line between wanting to change the other person and wanting to improve things. I have a feeling though that h sees nothing wrong with being as solitary and kind of introverted as he is. He spends hours and hours every evening working on the computer and it is difficult to talk to him as he responds only sometimes, or half responds with his eyes on the screen. When I mentioned the computer thing at the counselling session he said he was going to say the same to me. Yes I do go on the computer but not as often as him and only because at this point what else am I going to do?? Then he said later on that I have always resented the attention not being all on me. At this point I did manage to say that no, I know we both have our things to do, but that couples have to spend some time talking to each other or being together. This is just to say that I think for him it is totally normal to be as self-sufficient and kind of reclusive as he is and he may not want / know how to change this.

For my part the changes I would want are a. for us to be able to communicate how we feel about things without being defensive and with affection and b. for him to lose his short tempered and critical side and for him never to ostracise me again.

I think he wants a tidy house and to feel like his opinion is valued more. I find this difficult because it slips over into the autocratic thing. We have issues over money and spending as well and I suppose all that could be talked about and aired, but have a feeling it would be / will be terribly harrowing so don't know if I can go there!

Anyway, sorry for the essay. I don't know if we will go to the regular counselling sessions or even if it is a good idea to do so, but will wait for them to email us both and then see if h even mentions it to me or not.

Will pm you spendthrift, and also try to read up about aspergers rather.

I agree with AF that if there is an abusive dynamic in your relationship, counselling will make things worse.

I have direct experience of this unfortunately.

The untidy house is just a stick to beat you with. I can identify completely with the feeling of being overwhelmed with the negativity in your relationship - this can make ordinary everyday tasks very difficult to accomplish.

The reality is that you do not deserve to be treated badly - no matter how messy the house is.

My dh and I started our own individual therapy - this really helped. But before that dh had to agree to take responsibility for his behaviour. Therapy helped him (and I) change the way he behaved.

I think the aspergers is a red herring.

That should be Joint counselling.

I just wanted to warn you about going down the Aspberger's route. It does tend to be the new 'buzzword'. Controversially, Simon Barron-Cohen described it as extreme male behaviour and at the very mild end of the spectrum, I think it probably is. However, it is a diagnosable condition. I wouldn't advise people to 'tinker' with it as an excuse/reason for their DH's behaviour unless the behaviour is clearly ASD enough to seek a diagnosis.
Here's why.
My DS has a diagnosis of ASD. In reading up about it, I came to the conclusion that the reason my DH couldn't connect with me emotionally was because he had it too. I accepted that my DH was giving me the best love he was capable of and stopped looking for more from him.
Several years later, he had an affair. One of the most devatating things about it was reading the texts he had sent the OW. They were full of the openly and fully expressed emotions that I had been hankering after and assumed he was not capable of giving to anyone.
If I hadn't jumped to the ASD conclusion, maybe we would have tried to address the way we were and the difficulties with our relationship before he had an affair.
So this is why I think you should look at his behaviour (and yours) rather than get sidetracked by ASD.
Good luck.

I don't think other posters are right to say there is no point in joint counselling if one partner is controlling. Every relationship is different and if there is a will on both sides to make changes in the relationship I think counselling is absolutely worth trying. His attendance at this session suggests he is willing to acknowledge there are issues to resolve. I think we must be careful not to project our own feelings, experiences and relationships onto the OP and her husband.

Personally, my experience of counselling with my DP saved our relationship. My untidiness was one of his issues too and it felt like the stupidest thing to fight over but actually it transpired he was frustrated by the pressure of being 'the grown up' all of the time and the house was just the way in which this frustration manifested itself.

The first few sessions were horrible as all the little simmering resentments came out but we gradually learned to speak to each other respectfully and we are now happier than ever. I don't know if any of this applies to your relationship but wanted to provide a bit of balance. There are successes with counselling.

I would also suggest you shop around a bit for a counsellor or therapist who you both feel comfortable working with.

Keep going to counselling, and keep going to your own.

In your next session, bring up the word 'entitlement'. Also silence as punishing. Also, putting you down to your son.

Good luck, learn that you do have a right to a voice.

It's not just that he is controlling he is clearly entrenched in a pattern of blaming the OP/second guessing the OP/ jealousy of the OP's relationship with the children, he jumped on hints that the problem is hers during the one counselling session they have had, and shows determined defensiveness when she tries to talk with him on their own about problems she perceives such as him spending all evening on the computer his response there is to turn that accusation right back on her. And there is the punishing by withdrawal or sulking that seems to accompany all her efforts to open a conversation, to challenge him, to change things including the voicing of her feelings during the one session they have had.

I think this man has clearly decided it will be his way or the highway and that OP will have more of the unpleasantness that has resulted from the initial session if they continue. Joint counselling will be very distressing for Feelok until she goes to individual counselling and learns more about herself and how she functions in this relationship and something of the relationship dynamics and the rules he is playing by. For her part, her perception of her role and her expectations of marriage need to be examined before any joint counselling occurs because I think she is too inclined to think she doesn't have a right to a relationship that makes her happy to the same extent that her H does. If behaviour of the H is making you unhappy, Feelok, then you have the right to ask him to change that behaviour. If he had been like this when you first knew him and you had to fight for his attention against a computer every evening, would you have married him? In other words, are you really changing him, or are you correcting behaviour or habits of his that have developed over time and are now hurting you?

'I know there's a fine line between wanting to change the other person and wanting to improve things. I have a feeling though that h sees nothing wrong with being as solitary and kind of introverted as he is....

...For my part the changes I would want are a. for us to be able to communicate how we feel about things without being defensive and with affection and b. for him to lose his short tempered and critical side and for him never to ostracise me again...

...I think he wants a tidy house and to feel like his opinion is valued more. I find this difficult because it slips over into the autocratic thing. We have issues over money and spending as well and I suppose all that could be talked about and aired, but have a feeling it would be / will be terribly harrowing so don't know if I can go there!'

This is a power imbalance and emotional abuse in a nutshell. It is a serious problem and I think Feelok knows this. The insistence on the tidy house is in deed an autocratic thing. It is a stick to beat her with. The H here is getting what he needs (or what he thinks he needs) out of the status quo and he feels threatened by her attempts to change things, and he conducts himself without regard for what she wants or needs. In a healthy relationship, no matter what the issues, the couple would be able to talk without fear of reprisals, whether those reprisals consisted of physical or emotional or psychological abuse. Withdrawing/ sulking/ giving the silent treatment/ putting down Feelok in front of her child -- all this is emotional and psychological abuse.

I would hazard a guess that the problems he has in his perception of her as a mother are also related to his desire to keep things as he likes them, with Feelok threatening his center-of-the-universe status when she behaves as a mother to the children instead of orbiting around him.

Someone who has got sort of used to this treatment really should have counselling on her own as a kind of consciousness raising exercise before she sits down with a counsellor and her H and tries to put her point across.

Joint counselliong without individual counselling to bounce the counselling experience off someone with perhaps an alternative pov to that of the joint counsellor would help enormously to get a better perspective. Joint counselling with someone who holds the views the counsellor has expressed would be like walking into the lions' den. You would be eaten alive by both your H and the counsellor. You would emerge feeling you had been mugged. I have been there and i have had that feeling and I don't recommend it.

It is really hard to hold your ground against a man who thinks the best way forward is staunch defence and the best defence is attack. If you decide after a few sessions of joint counselling that you are not being heard during the sessions, having your perceptions questioned, having your H look at things in the light of attack-defend instead of moving forward together and climbing down from the mutual blame game, having your temerity in raising issues rewarded by punishment at home, you will be accused of dragging him to counselling and then wanting to squirm out of it when you don't feel it is going your way. Been there, done that, got saddled with blame for refusing to continue with the allegedly great counselling...

Maybe go to several sessions of your own before you agree to go to the joint counselling if you really think you should continue with it.

OP, this current thread is very relevant to your situation. IMO.

what's your point, RO ?

I don't think this sounds like Aspergers, and I don't see how it would make any difference to how the OP might feel about the way she is being treated in any case.

'A rose by any other name...'

.... is full of thorns is still a rose

My point is the same one I made on the previous page, and goes some way towards answering the follow-up question put to me by the OP.

Thanks for all your messages. I am really touched. Especially by all the time you, Mathanxiety, have taken to write down your thoughts. I've just been sleeping (putting kids to bed and lying with them for a cuddle only to find that two hours later I am still there) and feel a bit zonked, but I have read everything and find it all interesting. I will add a proper message tomorrow .

It sounds like quite subtle but still clearly emotional abuse to me feelok. The stonewalling (ignoring) you, criticism, put downs, lack of respect, blame all figure in an ea relationship. Tread very carefully with joint counselling - personally I wouldn't recommend it for the very reasons mathanx has so eloquently described.

Have you read the Lundy Bancroft book Why Does He Do That? or the losers article www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

(Have posted that 3 times this evening!)

My advice, see a solicitor, CAB, make a plan to leave. Men like him don't change. Counselling will not work. For your and your DC sake I think you will have to part company for a happier life.