Help with children, bad problems

[OhWesternWind]

Can any of you help me (once again) with a problem I am having? I have posted on here before, several times, and have had some great advice which I have tried to follow. The back story is that children and I suffered dv and emotional abuse from ex, have been away from him more than 1 year now and have moved area to get away from him although he is pursuing access via the courts I think just to "punish" me as he never showed positive interest in the children.

I have posted before about the violence both children but particularly the elder one show to each other and to me. The younger child has actually got better with this although is not perfect, but is learning to try and stay calm or leave the situation before it escalates. Elder one age 10 is getting worse, more violence and has also hurt our pet, kicked their grandmother when asked to get changed etc. In mitigation, eldest child suffered worst from father and has a lot of psychological problems which we are getting help for, including low self esteem and self harm, so I do try to be understanding, but of course from the point of view of the other child he is now actually getting hurt worse than he ever did from his father and for him the abuse is just carrying on but with a different perpetrator. All really difficult to cope with.

What I am posting about specifically today though is to get a reality check on how I am dealing with all this. I was on the phone to my mum over the weekend when the elder one threw the remote control into the younger one's face, full force, from a distance of about three feet. I saw all this whilst I was on the phone and immediately shouted (and it was a loud, angry shout as I was very shocked) for the child to go onto the stairs, which is where I put them for time out. I then told my mum I had to go and said quickly what had happened, then I went and sorted out the younger one and then spoke to the elder one who was then banned from going on the ds and playing out the next morning.

My mum rang back to say she was really shocked. I said I was too but luckily the younger child was not badly hurt, but my mum was ringing to say she was shocked by me shouting and that I should use a calm and gentle tone of voice. I said, well, no, I was shocked, angry and upset - I did not use any inappropriate language or call the child any names, which I try so hard to avoid doing, I just ordered them onto the stairs. I feel that if it is a serious situation then calm and gentle language is not appropriate. My mum then said I should not send the child onto the "naughty step" as that is only for three year olds. I said, it's not a naughty step but a place where the child is removed from the sitaution so we can all calm down safely and I could see if the younger one was okay. I don't send them to their rooms like my mum thinks I should as the rooms have toys and books in and it is no deterrent to them. The worse that happens if I send them to the stairs is that they are a bit bored for five or ten minutes but I do hope it gives them time to think about what they have done and to calm down.

My mum then went on to say that she thinks I am causing a lot of the problems by my attitude towards the children and that I favour the younger one and blame everything on the older one. To be fair, I do expect different standards of behaviour because there is over a three year age difference between the two, and what I expect of the younger one is the same as I would have expected of the other one at the same age. But the older one has extra privileges and activities again because of being older eg staying up to watch tv with me in the evening. But both are "punished" by time out, having their toys taken away for a day or having an activity/playing out cancelled if it's serious. I try to treat both children equally in terms of time I spend with them, and I tell them both very regularly that I love them, I give them lots of hugs and reassurance. I don't know what else to do.

I have spoken to the psychologist (very honestly) about this type of situation and she has not said she thinks it is my fault. I am honestly trying to do my best here so if I am cocking up majorly I do need to know. I find the continuing violence very difficult to deal with as I always thought that when we were away from ex we would not see this sort of thing any more. It upsets me very much. I love both children very very much and I just want to do what is best for both of them. I am not an expert and am finding the whole situation incredibly hard. What do you think?

I do think a "naughty step" is insufficient for a ten year old, so I would agree with your Mum at that point.

I would also be inclined to remove everything from the bedroom apart from the bed/clothes etc, and send him up there for much longer than a few minutes on the "step".

Kids can be violent to their siblings even without witnessing or experiencing violence from/by their parents, and you really do have to do more to deal with this now I think, before your 10year old is much older, and the same size as you.

What is your eldest son like with his friends? Is he aggressive or the "leader of the pack" with them too?

Firsly I would like to say I think your doing a great job, your trying to get your DC to see right from wrong and are showing them there are consequences(sp?) for bad bahaviour as well as good. I think you may need a few things tweeking like the stair area for the 10yr old, I have a dd(10) and she gets sent to her room to calm down. Her toys are there but she hates being sent as the exclusion from us is what gets to her, then after 10/15 mins I will go up, sit on her bed and ask if she understands why she was sent and build a conversation from there. However, just when I think a certain way works it stops and I need to evaluate how best to approach again!!!!! I'm sure you will gets lots of advice but you might want to think about putting this thread on the MN preteens bit. I get all my ideas from there xxx good luck xxx

This really isnt unusual where there has been domestic abuse . My local branch of womens aid offered me counselling , and also counselling for the children . Is this something you would consider ?

I think you sound like you're handling it very well, and I think you should trust your instincts rather than other people's advice, with the caveat that if you have serious concerns about whether you're doing the right thing you speak to a professional (not a family member).

I may be way off base here, so I apologise in advance if I'm wrong and cause offence. I'm honestly trying to help, not criticise.

From what you've said in your OP, you were clearly exposed to abuse over an extended period of time. You already know that none of this was your fault and you did nothing to deserve it. Responsibility for this lies solely with the perpetrator and it was not your job to make him stop. However, the fact that you didn't leave sooner perhaps suggests that you suffer from what I think of as 'being too reasonable syndrome' where you are so willing to see another's POV that this ends up being used against you and putting you in a position where you find yourself argued out of your instinctive reaction and agreeing to react in a way the other person deems appropriate. I imagine your X put this to very good use.

There's nothing wrong with being very reasonable - in fact it's a good characteristic - it's only a problem if it's exploited by an unreasonable person, which is why we need defences to it. Ultimately, as long as what you do is within the law isn't maliciously harmful, it's ok to do what you want just because you want to even if someone else is able to provide a much better argument for doing something else. As a human you have the right to make your own decisions and form your own opinions.

One of the reasons you may behave like this is because of the parenting you received as a child. This isn't a judgement call on your parents BTW but what I'm trying to say is that if your mum has parented you in a way that usually results in your capitulating to her POV, then that's a pattern you might be repeating in all your relationships and it can be very hard to break. It also means that what your mum is saying about your parenting might not be right but you are going to be more willing to listen to it and give it more weight than it deserves simply because that's normal in your relationship with her.

Most people's instincts are very good. It's socialisation and life that tends to skew them. I bet when you were with your X and he was abusive, your immediate, instinctive reaction was to be hurt, upset and angry. Thinking 'I deserved it' or 'I provoked him' or 'he didn't mean it' came later. If there's one piece of advice I'd give you it's to do what you feel is right, and stop thinking about it too much. It sounds to me like your instincts are spot on.

If anything I've said above resonates with you, you might like to think about getting some behavioural therapy yourself to help you break these patterns in thinking, but I think you'll be fine.

Thank you all so much for your replies and encouragement. I am truly finding it so hard walking the line between understanding the reason for much (probably not all - like you say, non-abused children are prone to violence towards siblings on occasion too!) of the violence from the elder child, and so making allowances, and protecting the younger one (who also has his moments) and trying to make the family home a nice, non-violent place to be. The two don't seem to fit together at all at the moment.

It is difficult to find an appropriate level of sanction against the children for violent episodes. But it seems as if you don't think I was way OTT for shouting and ordering the elder one onto the stairs, even if the stairs weren't the best place to be. The point my mum was making was that she wasn't shocked by teh child's violence but by my reaction to it. She also thinks I am making too much of these episodes by talking to the psychologist etc and that I have a real downer on the elder child. The other day I came home and heard arguing as soon as I pulled into the drive, the elder one was calling the younger names, shouting and throwing a real tantrum as she wanted a go on the trampoline. I felt really depressed by this and said so to my mum, who actually had a go at me for "coming back at the wrong moment" as apparently they had been good apart from that time. My mum favours the elder child massively and will not admit that she does any wrong even when she really hurts the younger child.

The elder one does really like being in her room alone - great bookworm. Unfortunately it's not practical to take the toys and books out of the room as I have only a small house with no room to store them anywhere else. I don't think the being away from the family will be a deterrent either and I am concerned that this could even fuel the problem ie she (mother) wants me to go to my room = she doesn't want me near her = she doesn't like me = she doesn't love me = I am worthless and deserve punishment = self-harm episode. I am walking on eggshells sometimes trying not to trigger things off as we have had all sorts, running away, self-harm, suicide threats hence the psychologist. We have now been referred on to another team due to "complex needs". So it is not just me that can't deal with all this!

The elder one (a girl actually) is very reserved with friends and finds it difficult to make friends, although the ones she does have are very good ones and are lovely children. She is not at all dominant which is another reason I think why she has to assert herself somewhere. I have noticed though (classic self-esteem) that she puts other people down a lot to make herself look/feel better. No idea what to do about this other than keep saying how great she is and how much I love her, which often results in sneering and eye rolling. Still I will keep on.

Thanks for teh tip to post in pre-teens - great idea.

The children are both having counselling and the elder one is also seeing NHS psychology team. I did see a WA counsellor but I now work full time and they only do daytime appointments, but I am starting some counselling at work today (fingers crossed it will help).

Sunshine, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. There is a lot in what you say and you put it very kindly. I do also tend to worry a lot about what other people think and that doesn't help either. I wanted so much for the children to be free of all this sort of nonsense that I had right from childhood but it seems like history is just repeating itself and the children are going to be at least as messed up as I was. (I was not abused btw but had a difficult family background for other reasons). If I am left to myself I am fine but as soon as other people start telling me different I do find it difficult to trust my own judgement sometimes. This can sometimes be a very bad thing and I should have left ex a long long time ago. I was aware of the emotional abuse to the children but not the physical abuse when we were together.

Anyway that is enough waffle but thank you all again, I do appreciate it.

I know it sounds like rewarding the behaviour but when DD2 now 16 was going through a real hard time being absolutely horrid at the same age I made sure I spent quality time just the 2 of us maybe going for a juice or shopping, it really helped us get the closeness back and her behaviour dramatically improved. ( Not saying you don't spend time with her)

I am a bit with dotty.

I don't think it would be rewarding bad behaviour. I am a believer that what happens during normal time shapes what happens during the bad times. If we can have a good relationship and proper attitudes during the good times, then it's more likely that we can keep calm during the bad.

In a way, yes, you should give the example of how to handle anger or stress in a calm way, although we all lose it, so I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing if it rarely happens.
Often bad behaviour can be a call for attention, so giving proper attention during the good behaviour should encourage it.

I am curious about what you do when the punishment/time off is finished. Do you talk to them? Do they apologise to you and each other? Do you share a hug? Do you find an activity where you all can interact in an appropriate way?

I don't do extra punishments with DS, even though he is still 7. He has a quick and immediate punishment, we have a proper conversation about what happened, then share a hug and find something to break the atmosphere. Something that makes us laugh.

You may want to go back to what happened and get them to say how they think they should have reacted. If necessary, go back to the original situation and let them act out adequate behaviour.
For example, if the older child is screaming about going in the trampoline, insist that she waits patiently for her turn and ask politely.
Also make sure that the youngest is not abusing it. If she is taking too long or not respecting turns, then he/she (?) might lose one turn as punishment.

Indeed, with two children, you may want to stop them, ask first what happened and then decide on the adequate punishment before immediately punishing the older child only, for example.

BTW, it's not "your fault", and what I suggested may well now work, but perhaps there are better ways of dealing with the behaviour and you may be rewarded by re-evaluating how you deal with it. God knows I'm always checking myself and make enough mistakes.