Did I do the right thing? (sorry long but don't want to drip feed)

[hamstersarsehole]

STBX was an abusive twat to me...............been separated nearly a year.
He had the DS's last night and when he came to drop them off today. DS1 (9) was quite hysterical, crying and ran off down the street. STBX was instantly to me "Don't you fucking start. You better back me up on this. He has been a nightmare. Keep your fucking nose out. You are loving this etc etc"

Anyway, I ran up the road to see DS and eventually he sat down on a wall with me and told me that he had accidentally elbowed DS2 and stbx told him to apologise but he argued back about that doing the "it was an accident" thing that kids occasionally do, but then stbx had gone "mad". He said "he swore at me (fucking little bastard)" and " I thought he was going to kill me and he grabbed my arm and slapped me on the leg".

I asked him, if he was frightened. And he said yes. He was pretty hysterical too, crying.

I said to him that adults should not behave like this, and aggressive and violent behaviour is unacceptable in any circumstance. That he is a child and his parents should protect him, not hurt him etc. And that he is right to be angry at his dad. His dad has behaved badly and I won't put up with it and don't expect him to put up with it. (alongside the thing that you mustn't be cheeky too ) So he refused to come back to the house unless stbx was not there (he was still there with DS2) so I said, yes, I will make sure he goes.

As you can probably guess, stbx did not like me "taking his side". But I was quite calmly saying, it is not about sides it is about an adult treating a child badly. I was quite firm despite the barrage that came back at me "you fucking just say everything I do is abuse" (it pretty much is), "he should be frightened, he was answering me back", and all the "bitch" comments. I just repeated that he had no excuse for treating a child like that. I won't have it. And I won't put the children through that. Anyway, he apologised (of a sort) to DS1 for his behaviour. Which is good, but you know......damage done.

Later on, I asked DS1 if he was OK about what had happened. He said, yes, sort of. I said that even though he is a child, he must trust what he knows about right and wrong, EVEN when it is your dad that does something wrong, and what his dad did was completely wrong, so he was right to be upset / angry / scared etc. But that also, that doesn't mean that you and daddy don't love one another etc.

Anyway, in this conversation, I said to him that stbx had been like this to me too and that was why we were not together. I have never really offered much of an explanation to him about why we have split other than "we argued all the time". I know he understood what I meant by that. But now I feel like I have burdened him with too much, and also am leaving myself wide open for the F4J type poisoning ex bitch like comments. I just don't know whether I did the right thing or whether I need to address this again.

It is so hard to know what the right thing is for children in these situations, I just don't want to fuck up my children.

There are several issues here.

On the one hand, I would reduce your own contact with him - so no on the doorstep handovers. Could you do this? A third party to hand them over and vice versa? Or him dropping them off at the end of the path? So..no chance for any 'chats' of this nature with you. And, in future, all contact between you to be via email and only relevant to your children.

Secondly, I couldn't let my little boy be treated like this. It would greatly upset me to know he had been sworn at so horribly and smacked [ although I am not anti smacking per se ] and I would be taking legal advice on how best to minimise this in future.

He sounds just vile.

i think youre right to not make your son see his dad, but i dont think you should go into anymore detail or discussion about how his dad abused you, as youre right, it is a lot of burden for a child. I really wish i didnt know about half of the stuff my dad did to my mum, or even vice versa, even though its true. Its a minefield.

Thank god youre out of that relationship now. Its so hard when there is children involved though.

You must be honest with both of your children. The worst thing I have found is lying. my DH lied to both of my DC, DD aged 6 and DS aged 8, over his reason for leaving - Mummy was arguing, when the truth was he had OW and was living with her. This meant that by lying DH has created a situation where both children dont trust him at all. DD often refuses to talk to DH because as I've always told both of them lying is never right.

Your handling of the situation was right because as the main carer you have to set the standard that STBX needs to follow. I found that my DH often raises his voice to the DC when he visits them and I have to explain that we dont shout anymore - I always shouted at the children as a prelude to DH shouting, I often found it was better if I did it as I wouldnt swear at them.

If your DC dont feel safe being with him, then I suggest you seek legal advice. If it is suggested that you end contact until he seeks a contact order so be it. At that point the judge will ask the DC how they feel - their feelings are the most important here, and a decision will be made accordingly.

Obviously things may change once he becomes aware that the DC feel so strongly but contact orders can always be changed.

Good luck XX

Stop contact. Immediately. He's abused and frightened your boy. You know it's not going to stop!

Tell your boy the truth. Ahge appropriate of course. He needs to understand that your ex did this, and this is what happens when a man chooses to abuse his family.

Don't EVER allow your ex any room at all for anyone to think anything but the fact the man was an abuser. Why would you take the blame for this vile man?

Talk to your DC, they may need support to get through this, you need to make sure all their feelings are allowed.

I don't have any constructive advice to give but just wanted to congratulate you on calmly standing up to a clearly abusive and threatening man. It must have been frightening (obv you felt you had to do it for the sake of your DS but that doesn't make the situation less fraught).

I hope you get some good advice here from more experienced people (in fact I'm sure of it).

"you need to make sure all their feelings are allowed."

I am so frightened that they don't get to do this. I am particularly worried about DS2 (6) being the bystander and one who has become a people pleaser.

Do you really think i need to stop all contact ? I am not sure the DSs want that? Can I really over ride their decision without horrendous consequences?

I think any advice suggesting that you stop your XH from seeing the kids is wrong. Your XH lost his temper, swore and smacked a boy who had probably been very cheeky. Not ideal but I don't think that there are many parents out there who have not at some point "lost it" with their DCs. Should they all have their children taken away from them and put into care?

And to be honest, your DS probably went a little over the top because he was coming home to you and knew he would get sympathy and get his Dad into trouble. That's what kids do.

Your XH may well be a complete cunt and doesn't deserve to see his kids - I can't judge that. But I don't think he deserves to lose contact with his kids and more importantly, your DS doesn't deserve to lose contact with his Dad because of one OTT incident.

I think you reacted badly although I am aware that I will be in a minority here by telling your DS about the abuse - no child deserves to hear that his Dad is a shit.

Hmmm it's funny Tryharder, but on your point that kids like to play parents off against each other.........I would say the exact opposite is the case when parents separate. They minimise everything because they want you back together and NOT ARGUING. That worries me a lot because they may not actually tell me if things happen, "so as not to get daddy into trouble".

And I did not tell DS1 'about the abuse'. I said that he was "like that with me too". And I feel heartbroken that I am basically telling DS that his dad is a shit. But what else can I do Tryharder? Say it is OK? It is hard. I don't want to burden. But I hear children of abusive families on here who are now adults saying they needed to know it was wrong. It's so hard.

Trust your instincts hamster. Sounds too me like you got this one spot on.

You must tell the truth to your children. I did (agianst the advice of my mother). My children are very well adjusted teenagers and have made their own minds up about their prck of a father. I never stopped them seeing him (although sorely tempted) they have done that pretty much now anyway.

The main thing is to keep them safe and if this is 'supervised' access then so be it.

I deal with teenagers (college) everyday who have been lied to and issues covered up and belive me that messes them up more than deakling with life ever does.

You sound like you're doing fine. You just wanted a bit of reassurance. You've got it - lucky children ahving you for a mum. (We just pick wankers to be tgheir fathers don't we??

Thanks Awbless

You are PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN from an ABUSER. One that has a long history of abusing you, and is now showing that he is prepared to verbally tear your child to pieces and to actually hit him.

If this man was just a friend, someone you know, would you be happy allowing him access to the children? Would you think they were safe?

If the answer to that is no, then stop access and let him take you to court. Set up a contact order in a contact centre. Tell him that you will NEVER allow access unsupervised anywhere except a contact centre until he attends a perpetrators workshop.

Tell him to sort out the most convenient contact centre and let you know (by email) where and when it is.

You then sit your children down and explain to them why you are not with their dad anymore and that now that he has started treating them in the way he treated you, you will take a break from allowing visits.

Tell them that someone telling a child that they are stupid or worse, swearing at them, screaming at them and hitting them is wrong, and that it does serious long term damage if not stopped immediately.

Tell them that this break will enable you all to wait for a while to make sure they are safe, that they are happy and have got their strength back. Tell them that the most important people in your life is them and that you will never allow anyone to tell them they are not great, or to harm them, especially their dad.

Ask them to talk to you about their feelings and say that there are no such thing as wrong feelings, that nothing in the world they think will scare you that you can handle everything they worry about, and will be happy to share their problems and see if you can help them to solve them. Reinforce that this behaviour is what their DAD is choosing to do, and that it's wrong and it's harmful to anyone it happens to.

The ONLY issue of importance in all this is the children. If your Ex was a proper man he'd understand what you are doing this for and agree with it. he is not mentally capable of contact with you or with your children.

If you are in scotland, there is something called the Cedar Project that is trialling Children Experiencing Domestic Abuse Recovery www.west-dunbarton.gov.uk/community-health-and-care-partnership-chcp/violence-against-women-partnership/cedar-project/

You need to show your children that you are there for them.

If a shit dad, an abuser, is allowed the smoke screen to hide behind, our SONS will grow up thinking it's OK to hit us (women), swear at us, and worse.

Why should WE take the blame for escaping a harmful and life threatening experience? It's important that children understand what is going on and why. Let there be NO confusion where DV is concerned. My son needs to grow up and out grow his legacy. How can he do that if he sees us pootling on in our day to day, and glorifies a man who only sought to steal our joy, suppress our happiness, destroy our spirit?

My son's dad abused me for 10 years, he only neglected my son really, didn't abuse him, although would deny him things cos he was jealous. He would vanish/refuse to be a part of his child's birthday for example. He begrudges the attention his child gets at his expense. I can't have someone like that living under my roof!! I wouldn't deny access atm, but if I heard a story like the OP's the man would never hear from me or his son ever again. I would in fact call the police if a hand was laid on my son by that man.

awbless once we have been in a DV relationship, we need to understand why. Interesting your mother was against you talking to your Children. Where does she fit into your family background wrt your being made/created vulnerable to abuse? I've had some shocking revelations from looking at my childhood dynamic. I am closer to knowing why it happened to me as a result.

Our instincts are what we need to follow, we need to provide stong, safe support for our children. We can't do that if we live a life of denial, smoke screens and normalisation of one of the single most harmful events in a life.

Hamster. I admire you for getting out of an abusive relationship, I admire you for being able to share a little of the pain of your son by empathising and revealing a little of your own experience.

In society we are often caught in a double bind. Society tells us to get out of abusive relationships for our own sake and the sake of the children, then pushes those very same children back to contact with the abuser, but this time without the protective presence of their other parent. If you are lucky the abusive parent holds it together for the contact, but more often their true colours shine through. It is so hard to keep children well grounded, to facilitate the unconditional love they have for the other parent, and yet manage the destructive influence that the other person is.

I would go for indirect contact after an initial break initially (Skype is great for this) and investigate other ways of having supervised contact.

Stay strong!

I think your explanation to your son was reasonable and helpful, and suitable for his age. He will understand this in a simple way - and he probably knows it deep down anyway. Telling children too much is not good, as you say. It burdens them unnecessarily. But silence can be unhelpful too. Sounds like you got the balance absolutely right. And it backs your son up too, that it is not his fault - his dad is like that with others and it is unnacceptable.

it's right not to burden them, but there sometimes comes a point where you have to share, esp in this case, you are letting him know that his dad has a history of it.
Therefore he knows it's not about 'him'. Yes he may have been naughty, but the reaction he got was wrong and a bad side of his father. I Have been very careful in what i tell my dd who is also 9, but some traits she has witnessed, i have said 'yes well that's what he was like when we were together, it's not you, it's not me, it's his crap'

My dd decided not to see her dad 4+ yrs ago, and i went with it, because she matters.
It was the hardest thing ever, but she was very grown up at 5-6 and altho not able to totally clarify why she didn't wish to see him, itook her view as being very very important.

I started not forcing her to go ( after 2 yrs of making her go). He's never bothered properly to make changes.

Your post illustrates that children should not be with abusers full stop midwivesdeliver

Both from your perspective as a child, and your current situation. Is there any way you can apply for your children to live with you? She will groom them into being victims or abusers if left unchecked. You are right. Your children will grow up with a skewed and manipulated view of life. This will harm them, in real terms. She has no business raising them if she's abusive. It'd be over my dead body that my son would be raised by my ex. He has no idea, and would dump them on the nearest woman in his land to do the work, and she'd be no better than him, as her entire life will have been a product of societal/cultural abuse.

I stated that the OP ceases contact between the DC and their father, due to the personalised nature of the thread. I of course mean that children should not have contact with abusive parents whatever the gender of the abuser.

IF these abusers undertake Perpetrators courses, THEN and only then should they have supervised access until proven to be no longer a risk to their children.

Do you have contact arrangements on paper already?

I went to solicitors and was told as me and ex have nothing formally in place I could STOP contact (I have concerns) and then it would be sorted formally in whatever way was best - in your case I would push for contact centre.

You need to get legal advice and you need to do it before next contact comes around.

I don't think you did the wrong thing personally in your talk with him. Your son needs to grow up knowing abusive behaviour isn't acceptable, and in the end you showing you won't tolerate it gives him a very good role model.

I do know people who have been told by CAFCASS not to badmouth the dcs father in anyway. Which is extremely binding and wrong IMO but it can happen.

errr i dunno it sounds pretty confusing for DS - you saying what ex did was wrong, swearing and hitting, but hey you should still love him anyway? it is all a bit twisted. that he should acept ex's bad behaviour on some level because he loves him? i know that isnt what you meant but maybe to DS it might be confusing to be countering what he did with "oh but he loves you".

i would do as others suggested and have a break from direct contact let DS speak on skype with him, rebuild some trust. see if ex can be plesant to him over skype...

bu if ex's behaviour tends towards constant swearing/physical agression over minor misdemeanours (kids elbowing each other etc) then it isnt a good environment or role model... does he constantly swear etc or only around you? is this first time DS has been upset over his behaviour?

also that you apparently continued to try and have discussion with ex while he was swearing at you?

so DC seeing that someone who swears/calls you names "you bitch" etc gets attention?

maybe right approach was "i am not going to talk about this if you are being verbally agressive. good bye; we can discuss this incident later by phone/email". and have handovers outside home, maybe third party, no hanging around "chatting" ...

also acknowledging the truth stating facts about what someone has done is not the same as bad mouthing. or tellign lies designed to put other peson in a bad light.

"we split because your father used to swear at me a lot "- well that is just fact if that is what happened.