Honest question: Can you have a good marriage without frequent sex? *long*

[mandalee]

My husband and I have been married for 12 years, and we have a wonderful 8-year-old son and a close, affectionate family. We love each other very much, and know each other very well. When people say "I married my best friend," well, that's us. And unfortunately, it's turned out to be an 'ishoo,' as they say. Or has it? I'm not sure.

Even when we first got together, the sexual spark between us was not all that strong. The sex was good, don't get me wrong - he's caring, and he takes his time - but I somehow never really lit up at the thought of jumping into bed with him. (TBH, there haven't been all that many relationships in my life where I have felt like that, but it's hard to know what's normal, I think, when everything in our society seems to be all about sex, sex, sex.) And our relationship was so great in other ways that it didn't seem to matter - I literally couldn't imagine life without him in it, and he felt the same. I married my best friend, and it was great. He's supportive, caring, he makes me laugh, he listens when I'm sad, occasionally puts the toilet seat down - he's a really good bloke, and I love him very much.

Despite that, in the 13 years we've been together, we've each cheated once. Both affairs were very painful when they came out into the open, full of tears, and in both cases we told each other the truth and decided that we couldn't bear to lose all the wonderful things we had together, and would work on it.

The problem is that I'm not sure the difficulty is something we really can work on. We've had lots of long, painful, honest conversations about it, and from his point of view, he's simply interested in things sexually that I'm not, and can't really imagine myself ever being turned on by (mainly S&M roleplaying and dirty talk). I could imagine approaching the edge of some of those things, but if he's really into it, I don't think that will be enough for him. For my part, I know that I'm bisexual - I fell very much (and very unexpectedly) in love with a woman some years ago, and I've always worried that it might happen again, and what it might do to my marriage. So, we each want (or potentially want) things that we aren't equipped to give the other, no matter how much we love each other.

This has led to some extra added bonus pain along the way, such as when I recently discovered him engaging in sex chats on his computer. It was awful. I felt the same terrible sinking sensation I'd had when I discovered his affair, and there were tears on both sides, recriminations (on my part), 'how could you do this to me,' promises to stop (on his part) and wondering if I should kick him out and change all three of our lives forever.

And then, a week or so ago, I had a revolutionary thought. What if I just decided on my own that this sort of thing didn't matter, and told him it was okay to explore that side of his sexuality online if he wanted to? Part of the issue for him, I think, is shame at being interested in the things he is, and that ends up translating into him putting me on a pedestal, "above" all that "dirty" stuff - which is surely the death of all desire, no? And having me get angry about it only exacerbates the whole thing.

I spoke to him about it, and it felt really calm and really good - I just said, "You know, you can look at that stuff if you want to, there's nothing wrong with it." Who knows, maybe we can check it out together one day. Maybe we'll even end up finding our way back to a sexual relationship because of it - stranger things have happened at sea.

That's what I thought at the time, and as I type it, it still feels right for us, and for the relationship we have together, which is honestly strong and good in every other way but this one. But doubts do creep in - so many people say that sex is the glue that binds a marriage, and what if I'm doing the wrong thing??

Sorry for going on so terribly long, it's just this has been on my mind all week and I needed to write it down in a lovely anonymous fashion Thanks in advance for your thoughts, lovely MNers. Love you!

If it works for you, and you are really okay with it, its no one else's business. Everyone is different

Marriages are all so different. Like you say, its the emotional side that will change everything. If one of you falls in love and has the love and the sexual bits that are missing. Thats the danger I guess. It depends if you feel life slipping by and that you are missing something?

Some couples have sex really frequently, others once a month or less. Both types can have loving healthy marriages. I think you should do whatever works for you and DH and ignore the societal brainwashing message!

It does sound as though you both love each other AND both know that your sexual needs are different.

I think a discussion about having an open relationship could be a possibility. However, if you decide to take this route, you must be totally honest with each other. It does work for some people but you do have to talk, talk some more and then talk again. Without honesty it won't work.

Someone tell sgb she's needed. OP, she'll be able to help.

Am sure your book will have a really fab front cover...

2 affairs

perfect family support

1 edgy s&m dirty talk and 1 bi-curious..oops.. no ...actually fell in love with another woman.

And a random child who really isn't anywhere in the fallout.

you wonderful MNer...love you!

I think absolutely you should do what you feel is right for you firstly and the both of you secondly. There are no rights and wrongs and perhaps zoning out all the "conformity" and "what's usual/normal" will certainly help.

It sounds like there's been a plateau of sorts. Both of you struggling with what you desire sexually yet above all, unwilling to lose each other. It could work. Then again, is the fact that your DH engaging in online sex covertly what it's all about for him? The deceit asitwere. The "naughtiness" of you not knowing. Would it be the same openly? Also (obviously) for you? Would it set you free? I think it's pretty liberating to say "You know what? I love you more than I dislike what you're doing"

Hope that makes sense!

Shakey, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. It did feel liberating. It's only afterward that I've had worries, that maybe 'everyone' doesn't do this because it can't work. And there's also a bit of sadness, in that we've finally brought this deficiency in our marriage into the light... after all, we all want the perfect relationship that will give us everything, don't we? It's hard to admit that we don't have it.

We did talk about the danger that one of us, in our explorations (and TBH we haven't agreed what exactly those explorations might consist of, just yet) might actually find The One - that perfect person who has it all. His thoughts on it made me feel a lot better: he said that he didn't think there could be one perfect person, and he couldn't ever imagine finding a relationship that would be as good overall as ours is for him. So it's really a decision I'm making to trust in the strength of what we've built together and love him enough not to ask him to cut off a part of his nature for my sake. And if in the future, I need to ask the same, he'll be there for me too.

As far as the online thing, I'm not sure - I suspect there is an element of being 'naughty' there, all men can be like little boys sometimes, can't they? I just know I don't want to be the morality police, and I don't think it's healthy for him to sneak around and hide it from me... that just makes me into the bad guy. Or the madonna, which is worse.

In theory. In reality, I'm a little scared... but I don't see a better alternative. We're not perfect, but we do love each other, and leaving it as it was would have been more dangerous, I think.

Hmm, Admiral, never considered a book. It would almost have to have a bodice-ripper cover, wouldn't it? Hmmm... looking at the dishes in the sink, not sure that really fits here. Just your average family, I'm afraid.

x

Mandalee do I know you from elsewhere online? I think you might be someone I know and have talked to a lot over the years.
If this is what it takes to make your marriage work in a way that you're both happy with then go for it. Who actually cares what anyone else thinks? As long as you, your dh and your family are happy then that is all that actually matters.

Squishy, I don't think so... but 'online' is a big place, so I guess it's possible. Thanks for the support, it makes me feel like I might not be utterly insane.

Sorry, you sounded familiar. My "friend" could have posted pretty much exactly what you have and I was hoping you were her and had got somewhere with how you were feeling.

If it works, it's not detrimental in any way to anyone in your family then you're not insane. :)

You didn't mention how often you do have sex.

Don't forget your son in all of this. Sexual fulfilment is certainly something that everyone wants but should it be at the cost of everything else?

I had this open relationship chat once with my exw. We didn't have sex much and as we were in our 20's and met very young, she started to become curious about others. We talked about it but it was never agreed. She went on to have an affair and we ended up splitting up. We probably both should have done more to stop this happening as we were like you, best friends but with little passion. To be honest she had never really turned me on sexually but as I was so inexperienced, I didn't know that at the time. It was only when I met my next partner that I realised!!

That relationship was sexual dynamite. We had sex more in 2 years than I had in ten with my exw. We clicked in every way sexually but the relationship failed because that is all we had. We had nothing else in common and after 2 years it started to show and we split.

My current DW and I are completely different and we too have a perfect relationship bar sex. She is very conservative shall we say despite my attempts at getting her to come out of her shell whilst I am more adventurous. I do get frustrated at the routineness of it all at times and she the fact it is fairly irregular mainly due to the routineness, but I love being with her and she with me and We therefore compromise a bit in this area.

I find it odd that my DW is so reserved when she has had many more encounters than me. I think he strict catholic upbringing certainly contributed.

I personally could cope with what you are suggesting in my relationship but only because I am not particularly jealous but it's not for everyone and it's risky.

Hi, maleview - thanks for posting, always good to get a guy's viewpoint.

At the moment, we haven't had sex for several months. And you're right, I'm absolutely not forgetting my son - I totally agree that sex on its own doesn't come close to adding up to the value of everything else in your life. The question is how best to keep the sex question from having a negative impact on the everything else?

It's interesting to hear about your relationships - you seem to have tried both extremes along the way to your current one

Keep in mind that I'm not actually sure what I'm suggesting for my relationship yet. I don't know how I'd feel about him actually going out and having sex with someone else... right now, I think we're just starting the conversation, and at the moment that conversation is about the online play he's been doing. For my part, it's totally theoretical ATM - with a new job and mummy duties, I've got no spare cycles for sexual angst right now, at least outside the variety I can take care of in the shower

I do realise that eventually this conversation will likely need to move on to the realm of the physical... not sure how I feel about that. Oddly enough, I suspect I'd rest easier if he were to join some sort of S&M club or go see an, ahem, 'specialist'... and thereby save all his emotion, and his love, for me alone. Sounds risky to even say such things, but wouldn't it be worse to ask him to just deny part of his sexuality completely? Still working my way through this one. But it's lovely to have your input. Thanks.

No problem. I think just being open and honest is the key. Society is so fixated on one man and one woman and total fidelity forever more but there are couples out there who live very happily with situations outside this box. A mate of mine knows a girl who told her husband she was bi sexual and felt repressed. They now swing with other couples where the female is also bi sexual. She said it was weird at first but as they were all in agreement then they were getting their needs met once every now and again but living as a couple for 99% of the time.

What works for one couple doesn't work for others.

Hope you work something out!

Good grief you've swallowed more than the usual stereotypes about male and female sexuality haven't you OP?

all men can be like little boys sometimes, can't they?

Really? You think that all men feel ashamed of their sexuality and like to be naughty and get caught?

and this:

I suspect I'd rest easier if he were to join some sort of S&M club or go see an, ahem, 'specialist'.

Do you mean a prostituted woman or a consenting, non-coerced adult who is willing to indulge a married man's fetish?

It's good that you've been belatedly honest with one another about your sexual incompatibility but it's not just that is it? Your affair involved love and I won't assume your husband's affair was just about sex, or that all his needs will be met by an emotionless encounter with a stranger. It sounds like you at least would be at risk of falling in love and that he might be the same.

Wouldn't it be better for your son if you became friendly, co-operative co-parents instead of trying to shoe-horn yourselves into a romantic relationship that has never really worked at that level?

OK, Hatty, you caught me indulging in a few stereotypes - though, reading back, I'd probably call them cliches instead. I've felt very muddled about this whole situation, and it didn't come out very well. So shoot me.

I still stand by what I said, as being honest about how I feel. I thought about it before I wrote, and for some reason, it honestly wouldn't bother me nearly as much if I knew that any physical relationship he had outside our marriage was quite openly about exploring sexuality/sensuality, and not about looking for love. Because we have quite a bit of that already, thanks. And I wouldn't call his interests a fetish... he's just, well, interested. I'm not - but I'm not going to condemn him for it.

As someone who's lived in a country where brothels are legal and well-regulated, I guess I don't have the knee-jerk reaction many people do - I would never call a sex worker a "prostituted woman." I think there are many who do it by choice, and I would imagine those who specialise in S&M are quite likely to have a personal leaning in that direction. Not that I've explored it deeply - but I can't imagine my husband exploiting a child sex slave, if that's what you meant to imply.

And okay, maybe ALL men don't like the naughtiness... but I suspect a fair few of them do. Mine included.

BTW, my affair was not with the woman I mentioned in my OP - that happened before I met my husband. And whereas affairs often seem to involve people 'falling in love' in order to get what they're not getting in a marriage - which can quite easily ruin both the marriage and the affair when they're found out - I'm trying to find a way around that, one that will let me be with the man I love and have built a life with, while also letting him be the full person he needs to be.

I'm not pretending to have all the answers, and I certainly am not trying to shoe-horn us into anything. Not sure what any of this has to do with my son - all he sees is Mummy and Daddy having lots of cuddles and kisses (yes! shock! We do probably more of that than the average couple!)

Hmm, I sound defensive, don't I? Guess I am, a bit. This is a sensitive subject, and I chose to post knowing I might get some heavy-handed responses, but hoping I wouldn't. Oh well.

The clichés keep coming though, don't they?

As someone who has also lived in a country where brothels were legal and supposedly regulated - and who did look into it a bit deeper, I can safely say that my opposition to men using prostituted women is not 'knee-jerk' and comes from both a feminist and informed viewpoint. I simply cannot understand your support of the sex industry to prop up your marriage or your husband's sexual desires.

It's also a cliché that an affair would be about getting what's not available in a marriage because that's not true of a lot of affairs, but in your marriage it depends what you were seeking when you had an affair - and what your husband was seeking when he did the same. You might have decided and agreed that neither of you were looking for love, it was 'just sex' and there was no emotional attachment for you in either affair. What about the people both of you were having an affair with though, was that true for them or did they get hurt? And just because neither of you fell in love this time why do you think it follows that you could achieve that again?

And if you're right and your husband is one of those men who likes the naughty and illicit, how will being open and transparent about his extra-marital interactions meet that particular need? Isn't the sneaking around as much a part of the thrill for your husband as the affair/interactions themselves?

The problem with 'open relationships' is that all the parties involved need to have rules and ethics in place and a strong lid on their emotions. Not everyone (and this applies to men and women) can always separate their emotions from the sex that they have. You might want to control the risk of that by having a rule that your husband pays for the sex that he wants, but he might decide he wants something different than sex with a woman who wouldn't be with him unless he paid her. Conversely, he could get addicted to the experience and you'd be broke after a while.

Then there's you and the 'rules' he might want to put in place to control your emotions. How would you see your needs being met in this set-up? How would you control the situation so that you didn't fall in love or feel a strong pull away from your husband? And seeing as you cannot control a new partner's emotions, how would you feel if this arrangement led to another man getting hurt by it?

OK, I'm not sure what you're after here. Time for you to go. Thanks for sharing.

I totally get where you are coming from. Dh and I are both bisexual, we haven't had affairs but I can easily see how it could happen. We love each other very much and don't want I split up but there are aspects of ourselves that can't be satisfied together. Dh is content using online porn, I'm not sure what I'd be content with yet. I too have come to the conclusion that, however unconventional, whatever works for us is fine. We talk about it lots and as long as we remain open and honest I think we'll be okay. Best of luck, and feel free to pm me.

Thanks, reclaiming. May well do that...

Er, isn't this thread about what you were after as the OP - presumably opinions, advice and questions from respondents in what is an open forum, who will make their own decisions about when they want to leave the thread?

Or did you just want posters to tell you that this is a great idea and that you are some sort of evolved free-spirit?

Open relationships can and do work. Please bear in mind that this is, actually, a political issue, there is a massive amount of social/political pressure on people to be heteromonogamous because the heteromonogamous nuclear family is one that best serves the needs of men and capitalism and isn't, and never has been, all that much cop for women.

Yes, open relationships can and do go wrong, just like heteromonogamous ones do, but relationships of any kind work better when they take place between people who are reasonably nice and have done a reasonable amount of thinking and talking about what they actually want from each other and from life in general.

Grab yourself a copy of The Ethical Slut, OP, and get your H to read it as well. That's a good starting point for discussion.

Mandalee, you may not LIKE what Hattytown says, but she is perfectly entitled to say it to you when you have courted opinions on a public forum. being rude to her is not really on.

As far as your predicament goes, I'm interested to know if you will feel entitled to explore your bisexuality if your DH can explore his desires or if this would be a purely one sided arrangement? I do think that unless you are of very strong character you always open the doors to others getting between you when you invite others into your marriage, either sexually or emotionally.

Cobweb, you're right, I was being sensitive, and I said so. I don' t know whether I'll ever be tempted to explore my own sexual self in the future, but I would definitely feel more able to talk to my husband about it after the conversation we've had recently. I guess in the end, it's really up to us.

Well good luck with it, at least you are starting out in the right footing by being open and honest with one another. Keeping that going, and agreeing that anything extra curricular finishes the moment one of you STOPS being happy is probably key in your success!