Terrified of leaving. Terrified of staying.

[EvacuationWarden]

I've got to the point where I want to leave my dh who I think is being unfair- but I need someone to help me with the final push. I need to grow a pair but I am scared.

Back in September I started a couple of threads like this one that helped me identify that my husband and I had a totally wierd financial set up, which made me so stressed and hemmed in.

And now I have a sneaky feeling he has installed spyware on my iphone (he won't let me use the laptop, so have to use my phone for everything) but can't work out how to check. (using work computer to post this.)

I think he is double bluffing me, I am sort of trying to summon the resolve biding my time before I leave, so playing nicey nicey and carrying on with the pretence but what if he is doing the same? A few things make me think this is what he's doing but I don't know how to find out- can find internet stuff about how to get keyloggers/spyware for iphone 3gs but not how to find it once its on and then remove it. Phone is provided via his 02 account so I cant even change it.

I am paranoid. Jump every time I hear his key in the door, and he's never even touched a hair on my head. Am imagining all sorts of wierd shit.

Can someone help me get level headed please? mY brain is in pieces and I cant think straight. :(

"Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft also explains controlling behaviours very well.

Lundy's book

Whoops Attila...seems we are on the same wavelength! (Again)

Hi Fool. I'm on your thread already but only v recently under a different yellowy sort of name. I namechange now and then (although not esp effectively I am sure) just to confuse him if he's spotted me.

I haven?t got the Lundy book but I have read the online resources the links point to- and whilst I recognise my husband on there I could just be exaggerating it in my mind. I really don?t know what is reasonable or unreasonable any more.

Shineon- enjoy your run, I?ll look out for you at the end of the week. Take care in the meantime.

Genuine question EW - why do you need to identify what is abusive and what's not? Does it really matter whether it's abusive? The fact of matter is, it makes you unhappy. It really is ok to leave your marriage even if it isn't abusive. You don't have to justify it. I know it's hard to contemplate breaking up your family, but sacrificing your happiness and your mental health for some ideal that doesn't really exist is totally pointless, your children will not thank you for it.

TBH it sounds like you two are very badly suited. He has made some effort to change, which is good, but it seems like he honestly can't see what's wrong with how he behaves. In his mind, you're the problem. That's not a good basis for a marriage. You should have deep respect and admiration for one another, and that definitely doesn't seem to be the case here.

Hi friend in disguise!!

I doubt you are exaggerating any of it. Since I left I have become more and more aware that I minimised what was going on, it's the only way to survive (tho a bad one !!) when you are in it all.

Trust yourself. If you want to put a tick in the box next to the behaviour, do, you can always rub it out later (bet you don't though).

CD I think people in abusive rels are so unsure of their own voice/feelings being valid that we seek outside validation even more than most. Identifying behaviour as abusive may give EW the strength she needs to do what her name suggests she wants/needs to. And will protect her from re-entering the danger zone.

Cailin- My marriage vows are really important to me. I guess I am just struggling with the concept of just giving up on it if its really me who?s having a problem working at our marriage, rather than him being unreasonable. I don?t want to be pointing fingers and casting blame about willy nilly, not the object of the exercise, but if the fault here lies at my feet then I would do whatever I can to make it work.

That's a fair point foolonthehill.

I can understand that EW. Sorry if you've answered this before - I haven't had a chance to read your other threads - but have you been to counselling with your husband?

On the other hand EW if the blame falls neatly packaged in front of him........

YOU can't fix this marriage because you cant fix him. Only he can do that and he will only do it if he is prepared to put in a lot of hard work, soul searching and pain.

I am not saying that you have never-ever done anything questionable, unwise or even just plain wrong...but I bet you know if you have and I bet you have tried to make amends.

Abusive partners find OH's that will go the extra mile, take responsibility and "take the rap" in the name of "working at it", "not giving up on the vows", "building something for the DC's" etc. Standing up for what is right, just and proper does not mean you gave up on your vows, but your vows are only half of the picture.

Put it this way. If he is capable/wants to reform he can do it and convince you as effectively after separation as much as before...and tho it is a small chance those abusers that do change are more likely to do it because their status quo has been strongly challenged (and there lives disrupted) than because a nice doormat that they live with has asked them to.

got to do school run now....see you later

Cailin- no, I desperately wanted to last time but he refused. Apparently he "doesn't need someone else to tell me how to think" (which of course is the exact purpose of counselling )

I couldn't go alone as could not afford it.

He has recently suggested that the reason I get so fed up is because I am bored. Its like he thinks that because he belittles everything I like doing, so have just stopped I have no hobbies, I've just turned my attention to nitpicking at our marriage. And I worry that he is right! Nothing actually keeps me going apart from plotting and planning how and when I can leave. And then I worry that if I do I will find out it was really boredom that drove me to leave and I will have made the biggest mistake of my life.

Other good people to talk to are respect, who know quite a thing or two about what makes abusers tick.
Re the wondering am I mad, overly anxious, seeing things that aren't there. All of us who have been in an abusive relationship develop some kind of 'paranoid' anxiety.
I too thought about keyloggers, all sorts of stuff because being rational ourselves we are looking for a rational explanation of why this person has become so expert at pushing our buttons, souring a relationship that for what seem like very good reasons ie dcs we want to work. So anything but the 'abuse' seems better, any explanation that allows us to make sense of it is worth searching for.
TBH it never makes sense, but you will slowly, slowly and after a lot of grief come to the other side of this and be able to recognise abuse for what it is the moment it starts inching its way into your life.

Joint counselling is a complete no no when there is abuse within the marriage. Such men if they were to attend a session (many never do) would make it all out to be their spouse's fault; they never take any responsibility for their actions.

Counselling for yourself solely would be adviseable but I would still primarily be planning an escape out.

You're not bored EW!. He has prevented you from having any sort of outside life of your own by belittling your efforts (that is certainly not the actions of someone supportive and or loving). EW - you would not leave or be leaving him out of boredom; he has driven you to this low point by his actions and you're getting to the point where you realise that his conduct towards you and by turn the children is totally unacceptable.

Atilla that HH website is spot on. I feel like I'm living in a two parallel universes at the moment, the one in my head where I know things have to change and the one in reality where everything I so normal and the same as it is all the time. It's really wierd and just makes everything feel unreal- does that make sense? Like all this has only happened in my imagination.

Watch-out EW, as the lights begin to come on the behaviour can get worse, make sure you have sorted out "what you would do if" ( bag, docs etc. I thought my Oh would never escalate but he did!

Trust your instincts

Thanks fool. Dh is out tomorrow night and I have a big list of things to collect whilst he's out- thanks to advice on here you lovely lot.

Right, your post concerning your children is pretty nasty. Tickling like that is horrible, nasty and abusive. Power play and physical domination dressed up as play.

Your children will grow to hate this man, I assure you.

Collect together all financial documentation first, before he suspects anything - get it all photocopied.

Copy all photos onto a data stick- can you back them up at work?

Buy a cheap PAYG phone.

Talk to Women's Aid - solicitor, free half hour - make plans to leave.

This isn't a marriage and he isn't a father. Don't stay and screw up your kids.

The reason I asked about counselling is to gauge if your DH is interested in improving your marriage. From what you say, it's clear he's not. I admire your wish to stay true to your vows but remember marriage is a contract between two people, you both need to uphold the vows for them to mean anything. If one person starts belittling and abusing the other, then it's not sensible for the abused partner to just soldier on regardless. That's not upholding vows, that's being a martyr and no one will give you a medal for it. You can't make your husband be a better person, he is who he is, and really, it is ok for you to say that you're not happy with that and to move on. You may have regrets but chances are those regrets will be about the fact that married life didn't turn out the way you wanted it to. If you stay with him you will have far bigger regrets - you will come to the end of your life and wonder why on earth you wasted it with someone who just doesn't care about you.

"...I could just be exaggerating it in my mind. I really don?t know what is reasonable or unreasonable any more."

Okay. Not allowing you to use the laptop is unreasonable. What's reasonable is there being no rules in the household saying what you can and cannot do. He's not your teacher or your boss.

What's unreasonable is you and the kids dashing about tidying up before he comes in because you're scared of his reaction. I remember going to tea at a friends house when I was little - and they did this. I was horrified and it's always stayed with me. What's reasonable is that he comes home, hugs the kids, gives you a kiss and asks you about your day.

What's unreasonable is him tickling your kids til they lash out in desperation, ignoring your pleas to stop and getting a kick out of it. What's reasonable is that he plays with them in a way that's safe and not controlling.

What's unreasonable is his control over money. What's reasonable is that you discuss finances and come to an agreement based on fairness.

What's unreasonable is him putting you down and belittling your hobbies and interests. What's reasonable is that he's happy you have things in your life that are fulfilling.

I could go on but I thing I've made my point - you're not exaggerating. Please get out before your children become as terrified as you are.

"He has recently suggested that the reason I get so fed up is because I am bored."

My ex used to say this - I had too much time to think apparently - obviously the reason I was unhappy had nothing to do with his abusive behaviour.

Like you, when I was making my mind up to leave, I questioned myself continually about whether his behaviour was abusive or not. "It's not really that bad" I would think "I must be imagining it", then I would read another post on here by someone else describing almost identical behaviour and it helped me to read that everyone else thought that that was abusive.

But eventually I realised that I was utterly miserable in the relationship and whether I called him abusive or not I knew that I couldn't live with it (or him) any more. And with that came a huge sense of relief. It was no longer about proving that I was right and not making it up but just accepting that I was unhappy and that was reason enough to leave. I had tried everything I could to make things better and one person can't make a relationship ok.

Really, you and your DCs would be better off without him. It's no way to live.

Oh, and in hindsight, I can see more clearly how abusive he was. It's sometimes difficult to see when you're in the middle of it.

I was one of those women frantically cleaning up (our very clean & tidy home) before ex-H came home, so that his first comment in the door wouldn't be "Christ, this place is a tip".

You really do forget what normal is, you forget that it is really nasty for someone's first words as they walk in the door to be unpleasant & critical. You genuinely do believe that you have lost perspective, that it can't possibly be that bad, that it must somehow be you - but it isn't. Everything you describe Evacuation is unpleasant & you are just enduring it. You can read that there are plenty of us that have been there & worn the very t-shirt you are wearing right now. It really doesn't have to be as it is for you now.

Thanks everyone for your support, empathy and encouragement. He is out at present and I am gathering as much documentation as I can.practical little steps.

Hey well done EvacuationWarden. Little steps get bigger and stronger and broader. Then they start climbing you out of the gloom and into the sunlight

Have read your other threads, this man is abusive and, from what you say on this thread, potentially dangerous. BIg red flag in the tickling DDs till they lash out. This man thinks the DDs are his and he can do what he likes to them, so once you've got rid, go for supervised contact only.

A sad question to all the ones talking about their exes: did not of them think losing their familes was worth addressing themselves and changing?

How did they react? :(