If we (women) were firmer...

[ButWhyIsTheGinGone]

and immediately ejected inferior specimens of men from our lives, men would be forced to up their game. I don't know how I feel about that statement, but it's just striking me more and more when I read this board. I'm talking the liars, the emotional abusers, the physical abusers, the financial abusers, the neglectful, the adulterers, the ones who expect to have a family but continue the young single life, the general no-hopers...etc.

I have been cheated on in every relationship I've ever been in, and I've also demeaned myself by begging a cheat to stay...so I'm certainly not going to start pointing fingers at people who find it hard to end relationships. But how's it got to the point where women live lives of utter misery and pain? How come even the most undesirable losers of men (see above characteristics) can get lovely partners and treat them like crap? Funny how the world works sometimes.

Sorry - just musing really. Any thoughts welcome.

100% agree. As women we are brought up to fix things that are wrong in relationships, rather than walking away. If we didn't it would massively dry up the pool of women willing to take shite.
Just my musings too

Conditioning takes a long time to undo in families...even the most obviously abusive stuff can be "normal" for a child...so we don't walk away, we try to make it work..

this is a long job and i truly hope that we can save our DCs and especially DDs from the mistakes we (meaning of course I) make.

One of the best things about MN is how much support and encouragement it offers to women to do exactly that. Because society is set up to encourage women to serve men, to look after them, meet their needs and make them happy, and there is all sorts of pressure on women not only to comply with this but to seek it out, because a woman without a male owner is repeatedly told she's a freak and a failure. Women are constantly peddled the utter bullshit that they are the ones who need couple-relationships and have to 'catch' and 'keep' a man, when in fact it's men who want couple-relationships, because they want domestic service and something to breed off.

Oh yeah, I forgot (yawn). Some people have good relationships. Of course they do. Good luck to them. It doesn't change the social history of heteromonogamy being designed to serve men's interests at the expense of women's. And though it's a good thing that more people are negotiating and enjoying more equal relationships, it's still fine to be single, and much better to be single than stuck in a crapy relationship just so as not to be single.

Thanks both for your posts.
As a further wondering, do you reckon some women naturally attract the worst kind of men? Not going to turn this into a "woe is me" thread, but I know I seem to attract the biggest fuckwits going. Sometimes I recognise it straight away - sometimes I get fooled. How come some women have it in-built in them only to accept the best? Not necessarily the most typically beautiful women.

Butwhy: Sometimes it's to do with how you grew up: if your father mistreated your mother then you learned quite early on that this is the pattern for couple-relationship, man gives woman shit. Or if you heard, a lot, when you were growing up, that there's something wrong with women who are not married/paired off, or at the very least that a woman without a man owner must be desperately unhappy and lonely.
Or, if you have had one abusive relationship your next one may be simply a different type of abuser, because your boundaries have been damaged. EG, if you have ended a relationship with a man who was violent, you may hook up with one who is an alcoholic, or controlling, because he isn't violent; if you had an alcoholic beforehand, you may put up for a while with an aggressive man because at least he doesn't drink, etc.

If you are going from one flavour of knob to another, promise yourself a year off from dating entirely, and use that year to work out who you are and what you want, and to get your boundaries and your asshat-radar in good shape.

Wow - a lot to think about there, solid. I instinctively agree with all that but will have a think about it as well. I am 27 but am definitely noticing more all the comments, hints, subtleties and suggestions that as a single person I am somehow inferior.

I definitely agree with the concept of women and male "owners." A lot of bar work has given me all the evidence I need on that one.

... Or of course the whole concept could be mind blowingly different and not be gender specific. Wow, it's a far out concept i know but still..

We're all human. We all have a sense of self respect and self worth. If either of those are missing or lacking you're on a hiding to nothing in any sort of relationship.

I think there are lots of women who do exactly that, especially as they get older. The men then just go on "diving holidays" to Thailand instead, rather than upping their game.

The goal of men seeing women as people is a long game.

Great posts solidgoldbrass. Hear hear!

Little girls are brought up with the idea that getting getting a man and living happily ever after is the number one desirable thing in life. We are taught to be nice, take care of others, not be "selfish". Look back in time: Marriage was the norm and women expected to be house servants, basically. Unfortunately many men still thinks like this more or less instead of seeing his female partner as, well, a partner and an equal.

Many young women rush into relationships really early on, before they know what they really want and know what they're worth.

This does all benefit those men, who want a woman who is anxious to take care of him, his feelings and his house while he does zero effort or even behaves really badly.

I think it's really good to spend a lot of time being single, enjoy life and think about what you want before starting to date again or for the first time.

I think it's sad you have that viewpoint at 27.

But then basing that concept on bar experience i can see why that could be the case.

We really need to teach our daughters that it's perfectly all right to be single, live alone or with a female friend/family/collective etc. The idea that the only way to live is in a monogamous male/female marriage is damaging. You actually don't need a male "owner"! If you decided to live with a guy, he better be awesome.

Do you know what the male equivalent of the OP's complaint is? It's 'why do women prefer bastards?' On the forum I normally frequent (currently banned!) you get guys asking this question all the time. Men find it just as frustrating that their sensitivity, good humour and diligence is overlooked by ladies who seem to prefer Rod the Hells Angel to Brian from accounts. God knows what the answer is, but perhaps none of us truly know what we want. Or if we do, it isn't physically possible to fit such contradictory traits into a single human being! Anyway, rambling now, so I'll shut up. :)

Sparks - why say that? Really, why?
I will elaborate on my opinion a bit - over years of bar/pub/club work in various cities I have come to recognise a male view of "ownership" over women and furthermore, the view that lone women are "fair game" and must automatically looking for a male "owner." While I've never voiced it thus, I liked Solid's way of phrasing it and said so.
You obviously think me flippant and unintelligent when I am neither.

Rick, that sounds like Nice Guy Syndrome They are just as tedious.

There is a generation element to this too.

A lot of the completely shit men that typically get posted about on here seem to have their behaviour / attitude validated by their mother.

I don't say that as an excuse, rather a predictable fallout from what their mothers accepted and put up with.

Hopefully a generation on that will change.

Thanks for the male perspective, Rick! You're not rambling at all and it was interesting to read it from that side. Yup - hadn't really considered it like that. I think you're definitely right about none of us really knowing what we want.

SonicRainBoom - yes, living alone can be brilliant. I've loved it for the last few years. Freedom is priceless!

You what? You mean that they learnt about shit behaviour from their fathers, surely? Focus, Sparks, focus. Let's not make other people pick up responsibility that's not theirs to wear.

AyeRobot - I am all ears! Teach me about what isn't 'tedious', so I can report back...I am determined to learn something from MN :)

Got to go and pick up my daughter. Back in 30 minutes. I might ask her too!

Sparks - why say that? Really, why?
I will elaborate on my opinion a bit - over years of bar/pub/club work in various cities I have come to recognise a male view of "ownership" over women and furthermore, the view that lone women are "fair game" and must automatically looking for a male "owner." While I've never voiced it thus, I liked Solid's way of phrasing it and said so.
You obviously think me flippant and unintelligent when I am neither.

Why say that?

a) Because i certainly hope my daughter does not have that view at 27

b) Because basing your views on bar work is ridiculous. I quite agree the atmosphere can be as you describe. Does that translate to society as a whole? I certainly hope not.

I obviously think you flippant and unintelligent? Not really sure where you got that from!?

Any man that moans about Bad Boys getting all the girls is a tede.

FACT.

a) Sorry my view of things does not please you. I hope if the path of your daughter's life does not take the way you hope, and she ends up feeling similarly disillusioned, you won't be so delightfully sharp.

b) I don't need to justify the root of my views to you. I have my opinons of the way things are, and whatever life experiences have led to these don't need validating by you, thanks.

You what? You mean that they learnt about shit behaviour from their fathers, surely? Focus, Sparks, focus. Let's not make other people pick up responsibility that's not theirs to wear

The behaviour may have been from the father but the man's validation years later comes from his mother.

Pathetic and pitying if you ask me but it still seems to happen on a regular basis.

AyeRobot
Surely its the responsibility of both parents to bring up their children.
To absolve one parent of responsibilty is just plain wrong.

(i also don't know what a tede is)

AyeRobot - Can't agree about the Bad Boy thing... IME most "Bad Boys" are not "Bad Boys with hearts of gold deep down" but actually "Bad Boys who are dicks through and through!" I am willing to accept I must just know the wrong people, though! :-)

*a) Sorry my view of things does not please you. I hope if the path of your daughter's life does not take the way you hope, and she ends up feeling similarly disillusioned, you won't be so delightfully sharp.

b) I don't need to justify the root of my views to you. I have my opinons of the way things are, and whatever life experiences have led to these don't need validating by you, thanks.*

Um, ok.