Something a friend said has really upset me

[iusedtohaveanickname]

Not entirely sure I'm posting this in the right place, or even why I'm posting - just to get it off my chest I think. I've name changed.

A couple of weeks ago a very, very close friend made a comment to me that I just can't get over. I think I might be hugely over thinking this and making a huge deal of nothing.

We both have 2 children of similar sort of ages. She had 2 lovely straightforward waterbirths. I had a really awful birth with DS, I won't bore you with the details but it ended in a crash section and 10 days in hospital. Ultimately we were fine, but DS needed a spell in SCBU and I was fairly traumatised. When I had DD I opted for an ELCS, with the full support of my consultant (although he would have supported VBAC too, we went through the options and it was my choice).

My friend is a GP. She was talking to me (in general terms, no names) about one of her patients who is having a real fight on her hands to get an ELCS. Her obstetrician seems to have refused one. My friend was relaying all of this to me, and I was sympathising with this patient's position. And then my friend said "It does seem really unfair. I think she's got a much better case than you had for a section. If I'd been your obstetrician I would have made you try the proper way".

I was just shocked. I didn't really respond. I kind of stuttered through another 10 minutes of stilted conversation, then made my excuses, got the children together and left. I've seen her a couple of times in groups since then, but have avoided any personal conversations.

The thing is that she doesn't even fully know my obstetric history. We've always kind of had an agreement that I don't ask her medical questions as it puts her in an awkward position. So while it has been discussed in general terms (i.e. she knows the gist of what happened with DS's birth, and she certainly knows how upset I was), she doesn't really know the detail (I sat with my consultant and went through my first labour notes, DS's trace, the notes that the team had written up afterwards etc in great detail - it was complicated and there was a lot in there, and I've never felt the need to tell her any of it, or even that I had the option to tell her any of it, as I wouldn't have wanted her to think that I was seeking a medical opinion from her).

I just feel really upset. The decision to have an ELCS was quite a big one for me as really I'm quite a "natural childbirth" fan, in theory - I'd have loved to have had her births. But I made that decision, and it went well, and it was a year ago and not something I'd really given any thought since. And now I feel that it's all been stirred up again, and I just feel judged. IAnd very, very annoyed with her. And that years of friendship might just have been completely ruined by this one comment. I'm totally overreacting, aren't I?

Ooh, just read what hardgoing has to say about keeping schtum and what she says makes a lot of sense... Tricky one.

I had a friend say something very hurtful in a thoughtless way a few years ago (had a MMC at 13 weeks, couldnt speak because I was so distraught and ended up telling her by text because it was easier, after ignoring calls, and she said, "oh, thank god, I thought someone had died." WTF?!) I never said anything but it has definitely affected our friendship. I feel much more distant from her and when I had other mcs I didn't tell her because I was so worried about what she would say. I regret it now and think I should have cleared the air. I don't think she got it (she has no kids, has never been preg) and I should have explained it at the time.

Sorry, rambling, but I think might be best to say something so it doesn't fester or just lead to two good friends drifting apart?

I agree with craprelationship. And oh my god what an awful thing to have said!!

So you have pretend children?

FFS. I HATE THAT CRAP. Who gives a shit how the baby came out as long as the mother and child are fine?

You know what's so maddening about those comments? No one would ever dare suggest to adoptive parents that they're 'lesser' parents (and rightly so) and yet somehow it's OK to make women feel inadequate as mothers because they didn't manage/want to push their baby out of their vaginas.

Doesn't matter how the child arrives. Once they're in your arms, you're a parent.

I think it would be a shame to lose a friendship, or indeed a sisterly relationship, over a remark like that.

Perhaps it's just me, but I am not a great fan of 'clearing the air' with friends. In my experience, the aggrieved person rarely feels better and the person who is at fault tends to still think they are in the right. I can think of a few tactless remarks made to me over the years, but I'd rather have a twenty-five year friendship than get huffy over them. I once had a work colleague/friend who thought I had slighted her and decided to 'clear the air'. It didn't clear the air, it just made me realise she was hard work as a friend and avoid her in the future.

However, I think one of the problems here is that you haven't told your very good friend about what happened to you. So, she doesn't realise how traumatising your first birth was. Of course, you are not obliged to tell her. But it does mean she probably didn't realise just how deeply you would feel about this, and thought it was up for discussion when in fact it wasn't. If you do choose to talk to her, I think I would talk to her not just about the remark, but allude to your bad experience, as I think it would make a whole lot more sense to her.

I had an emergency C section after planning a home birth (26 years ago) and feel sure would choose ELCS if lucky enough to be pg again so very much on the same page as you OP.

My tentative thought is that your friend said something horribly insensitive and ill informed but might actually have been really focussed on how much she thought her patient needed the ELCS rather than on the details of your experience IYSWIM.

I can still remember a very stupid and insensitive remark I made to a friend about her appearance over 20 years ago , no malice just foot in mouth, still cringe at the memory.

xx

She's a GP! Not the most sensitive bunch imo. She may be a lovely friend but probably crashes about as most GPs do (imo) when it's anything medical. I don't blame you for being very upset. I fear this may put a distance between you, it's hard to get over stuff like this - unless she completely grovels an apology.

I have a friend like this. She is lovely and amazing in terms of offering practical support wel beyond what could be expected, but at the same time she is the world's most tactless person. In fact our group of friends call making a tactless blunder "doing a Fiona". To be fair to her, you can be blunt as hell back to her and she really doesn't mind.

I think some people just have no inner monologue.

It is hurtful but mabe she meant that she would have given you the chance to have that natural birth by trying differnt methods. It was insensitive. I would tell her how you feel and go from there. I am also hurt by a close friend. It dosn't take much to blight a friendship.

Iusedtohave, I dont doubt your friend was insensitive, but I also think that a birth which went wrong for you is also a big deal, and people do not see this easily.

I ended up with an EC for my third child, after 2 vaginal births. The plan was for a home birth this time.The caesarian birth went badly wrong. The baby was a footling breech, and got stuck in a odd position that I ended up with a T shaped scar on my uterus, and no doctor was able to tell me the likelihood of that causing further problems in a future pregnancy, as there isnt enough research evidence to go on (it did).

The point I am trying to make is that birth is a very personal experience for a woman, whatever she chooses, ad whatever the reasons. I dont think we as a society even understand it fully yet, the emotional end of it.

I wrote to my hospital afterwards for further information in a most non judgmental way, not critical, and got back the shittiest possible letter saying I should feel lucky I got a live birth out of it. The arrogance was stunning, and I couldnt even reply, I was so upset, which years later I still regretted.

Do you see the connection, even though our choices were not quite the same? I did choose a caesarian for my fourth (although strongly advised, because of the potential for uterine rupture), but I was still sad. I relived the trauma of the previous birth, and felt I had lost something. I am fine about it now, but you are only a year on.

I think that a bad birth is traumatic, and that a birth decision after that can leave us feeling vulnerable too. It does become far less important in time. If this sounds like you, then it is possible that all that was just over your friends head, and she was talking on a purely practical level.

I'm not surprisec you're upset.. I'm livid for you!
The words "made you", and "proper way" seem to speak volumes about the way her mind works... Ie "it's the medic's choice", and "VBAC is really the only 'worthy' way".

she comes across like a very unsupportive type of doctor (i was going to put 'total cow'.)

one to have it out with and/or cross off your list, i'm afraid. I wouldn't be able to get past it.

God what a horrible thing she said to you. And it speaks volumes about her attitude to women, to patients, to childbirth - none of it pretty.

If you did feel able to talk to her about how hurt you felt, you would probably end up feeling better, keep the friendship (if you wanted to) and you would do her patients a big favour because she might re-think some of her appalling attitudes.

Having experienced a traumatic birth myself I have found that v few people understand and that many are very dismissive. As a previous poster said so succinctly, a lot of people are spectacularly ignorant.

Im going to go against the grain here but I really don't think I would be upset at this and cant understand why you would even consider losing a long term friendship with someone who you say has always been kind and supportive.

I had an emergency c-section. If a friend of mine had said this to me I'd have just outlined my reasons for having another c-section. I cant think why I would get upset. What she said wasnt tactful, it was very matter of fact, but she was just expressing concern re a patient and an opinion re your birth. is that such a bad thing for a good friend to do?

I might be wrong but I get the feeling from your posts that the issue is more about you not being reconciled to the fact you have had 2 CS for whatever reason. You said yourself that you would have loved to have had natural births and I think this may have coloured your judgement here.

In any case I would just forget about this and move on and when the opportunity presented itself would prob have a chat with her about how the births have affected you and how you were a bit hurt by her comment.

I agree with Simone.

Honestly, people have no idea do they? I had a failed instrumental delivery and crash section for my first (who was also was in scbu) which to all accounts was awful, the two elective sections, and the amount of people that have insinuated over the years that i was and am too posh to push is staggering.

I really would take no notice. People are just ignorant

I'd give your friend a break for the simple reason that doctors usually have a darker sense of humour than mere mortals (making jokes of things that are difficult and personal and not really funny), she'd presumably let her guard down as you're friends, it sounds like she was being brisk in a humorous way and realised immediately that she'd messed up.

But I would say something to her - she's presumably expecting you to? And then have a glass of wine and a good laugh about what a tactless oaf she is.

Thanks all. You've made some good points.

I don't want to lose a friend over this. I am hurt and upset by what she said, but I do see, having read your comments, that the reaction is due to my feelings about my births, and not simply what she said. It all went so well for her that I don't think she would be able to appreciate what it's like when it doesn't. Even although she's broadly speaking aware of what went wrong with DS's birth, I suspect that she just viewed it, if she's given it much thought, in a clnical way - i.e. 'OK, this happened, and that happened, and statistically your chances of it happening again with a subsequent birth make VBAC look quite possible'. She knew I was upset at the time, but actually I don't really think I've ever said anything which really underlines that I still find it upsetting this far down the line. Maybe I assumed that as a medical professional she'd appreciate that - obviously I was very wrong!

Thinking it through, we disagree on lots of things. We have different religious views, different views on how our children are going to be educated, different political views etc etc. None of this has ever mattered before. This is just going to have to be another subject on which we disagree. It's a "big deal" for me, but probably not so much for her. I do think that bbc's point is a valid one - I think the "made you" and "proper way" were what stung a bit, as actually I had a great obstetrician and spent ages discussing this with him - I was totally comfortable that we'd made a decision together, or at least that I'd made a decision which he fully supported, and there had never been any question of a "proper way".

But moving on is the way forward now. If I raise it, it won't be in a "heavy" way, just, as Simone suggests, when the opportunity presents.

Is there a little part of you that still thinks you should have done your 'duty' and tried for a VBAC? I had an emergency section first time around and when I was pregnant for the second time I just couldn't make a decision between an elcs or vbac. In truth I wanted an elective but had this overwhelming sense that it was my duty to try for a vbac, so I genuinely couldn't make my mind up (which my consultant found a bit odd). I spent the pregnancy hoping my son was breech so the decision would be taken out of my hands.

In the end I went a bit over, was checked out by the consultant who said the baby wasn't on it's way anytime soon so booked me in for an elcs. Of course I went into labour 7hrs before I was due in for the section and I decided that fate had spoken and said vbac.

Everything that went wrong with my 1st birth pretty much happened with my 2nd and I had a 2nd emergency section which has been far worse emotionally to cope with. I should have gone with my gut in the first place and booked an elcs for a week before my due date, instead of being wishy-washy and feeling unprepared psychologically and out of control when it came to it.

What I'm trying to say in a longwinded way is you made absolutely the right decision for you, be confident and happy with that and don't feel or let anyone make you feel that you took the easy way out. What she said was ill-informed and grossly insensitive but it hurts more possibly because you feel there is an element of truth to it? There isn't, you made the right choice and your friend doesn't know what she's talking about in this instance. Wish I'd done the same as you.

Are you sure she perceived your ELCS as a true choice of yours rather than something decided by your doctors? (Though of course even the opportunity to make a choice is something granted or not by doctors in this situation.)

She may have been thinking about it in a very abstract, theoretical way - analysing how good a case for a CS versus a VBAC you were and just coming to a different conclusion to your consultant. My guess is that as a doctor she assumes that most medical choices belong to doctors and therefore just didn't think of it as criticising you at all, but rather sees you as the passive participant in a medical process. In her mind she may even have felt she was saying "I would have made a better decision for you if I'd been your doctor" rather than "you are at fault for not giving birth in the way I think would have been best for you".

If she's otherwise nice I'd tend to assume that it was more the fact that she's a doctor having led her to be tactless and inconsiderate, rather than malice driving her. The idea that she carefully steered the conversation that way in order to make a dig (can't remember who said that) seems a bit unnecessarily paranoid if she's not shown any other signs of wanting to make sly digs at you.

I do think a lot of HCP see vaginal births as some wonderful thing that all women should try or get.

I was recently in hospital for a few days ill with hyperemesis (this is DC2). Every single nurse or doctor who I came in contact with asked me "Was your DS born normally?" This was said casually and often nothing to do with whatever treatment they were giving me for hyperemesis. As it happens, yes, DS was born vaginally but still was a bit at how they asked and why it made them nod approvingly.

Also, in terms of Doctors, I agree they can speak before engaging their brains. My DH is a GP and often thinks in clinical terms, rather than emotional terms like I would. Years ago a young colleague was diagnosed with cancer which she died from months later. When I told DH about her being in hospital he replied in terms of prevalence rates for that sort of cancer, mortality rates being very high etc etc. Really what I was worried about was her DC, her family, how people in work were feeling.

sees you as the passive participant in a medical process

This is the aspect of the way medics relate to me as a patient that I find the most offensive. It is likely that your friend was in fact suggesting she would have done a 'better' job for you (because she cares about you) if she had been your clinician. However, it is the suggestion that you were passive in the decision that may have offended you; also that there is a 'better way' - this is offensive/tactless/hurtful; as though what you did was substandard in some way, or that your clinician was somehow not as good as she would have been had she been in charge.

I felt a lot of grief that I wasn't able to deliver any of my kids vaginally, all were CS. Even though my kids are grown and, after the initial grief, for many years I haven't cared one jot how they were born, just that they are alive, I still sometimes get a niggle about it (esp recently for some reason). It's a sore point and probably made all the more acute by the fact that your friend sailed through with straightforward, uncomplicated deliveries. That in itself would get my goat tbh (a bit), even though I'd be glad for her that things weren't fraught for her as they were for me.

Was your DS born normally?

no he just appeared in a blinding flash of rainbow lights, thats cause we used baby dust ,none of that having sex for us............

Sorry not taking the piss out of you NeedlesCuties I'm impressed you didn't bite the head off one of them, but really.......

(in my defence an ex-HCP and used to go mad at Colleagues junior/senior and learning who phrased questions like that, after all if this was your 3rd CS birth that is 'normal' for you. . . and breath)

smellslike I was a bit when they asked that, most certainly.

If I hadn't have been rigged up to a drip and lying almost crying with weakness from hyperemesis I might have said something cheeky back.

Like the elderly gent who was asked by the very posh naice consultant.
?Have you passed flatus Mr X?, ?oh yes doctor?.

Me a bit as we?d had a conversation about his bowels 10 minutes earlier.
This was on a gastro/surgical ward so very important.

Me being me went ?hang on Mr X have you farted recently??

Mr X ?oh not I?d love to be able to do that, when will I be able to do that again? I look like I swallowed a football?. (Quick x-ray, return trip to operation theatre).

When asking a question make sure you frame it in a way that can not be misunderstood.

Again on a gastro ward 'normal' bowel habit could be 15-20 times a day or twice a week. Students were taught to ask how often and is this normal FOR YOU!!

Rant over............

She's a doctor, if she forgot her sympathetic doctor hat it was probably no more personal to her than a garage mechanic dismissing automatic transmissions v 'normal'. To you it was understandably very hurtful. This is why you both agreed you wouldn't discuss your medical matters

I would bring it up in a taking the piss out of her abruptness gentle manner when you are ready.