Is this typical toxic parent behaviour?

[MrsHuxtable]

It's my mum again. I've posted plenty about her, how I think she abused me as a child and how she is still being horrible to me.

The question I have is about the last phone conversation we had, it was last night. It followed a typical pattern. She phoned me, I didn't as I was still upset about the conversation we had before that and since I'm 34 weeks pregnant and talking to her gives me painful BH, I decided to keep contact to a minimum.

Anyway, she phones, lovely cheerful voice "How are you?", she then proceeds to tell me about her day, she says some really strange stuff and 2 minutes into the call, bamm, she critisizes me, makes me feel like a failure. This time, I'm not taking it though and am explaining to her, why she shouldn't have said what she said, why it makes me upset and that the reason I haven't phoned her is that I'm still hurt by the stuff she said last time. Of course she didn't get what she did wrong so I explain it to her.
Now she starts sobbing, telling me there's something wrong with me, I can't be nice to her, am just negative in general blabla and she will never give her opinon again. "Fine", I say, because quite frankly, noone in this house wants to know your opinions as their so, well, not normal (I didn't say that bit btw).

The sobbing gets worse, she's now in full victim mode, the role of her lifetime as I like to call it and she says, she doesn't understand why I keep trying to educate her and not just leave her alone. So I said that I'm not trying to educate her, I know I realistically can't change her and her rudeness but I can change my reaction to it, which I have done now by not letting myself being bullied anymore and speaking up for myself when she hurts me. I have drawn a line.

The conversation ends but guess what? I'm the one feeling like a bully now with all her sobbing and telling me I'm horrible to her. Very, very painful bump thightenings, I was so upset, couldn't go to sleep til 3 at night, picking apart the last 2 phone calls in my head wondering if I was being unfair to her. The thing is, I really wasn't. DH was there, heard it all. The starts getting annoyed now to as he doesn't want to see me upset or stressed out.

Yet, she has managed to make me feel guilty again.

Does anyone know if that is typical toxic behaviour? I seem to be under the impression that toxic parents know what they are doing? My mum doesn't seem to be aware of this. The opposite in fact. She seems to think she's the all innocent victim, which makes any kind of conversation about the issue pointless as she won't listen, just sobs in self-pity.

I honestly don't know what to do anymore.

I may be way off the mark but this is how it appears to me.

It sounds like your mother is terribly insecure and doesn't really know how to show love or affection. In her mind her comments are a way of guiding you and "giving her opinion." She doesn't seem to understand that as her daughter all you (understandably) want is her approval and support and that her "opinion" hurts you and makes you feel like a failure. When you turned things around on her and called her on her behaviour she felt exactly the same way as you do, that she was trying to connect with you and you criticised her. Her comment that you try to "educate" her is very telling - perhaps she feels inadequate around you and your comments sound to her like you feel she is stupid. I know that wasn't your intention at all, but because she is a very emotionally immature person she can't see where you're coming from.

I'm not sure if she's toxic to be honest, but the effect she has on you definitely is toxic. You need to decide whether you can repair things with her to a sufficient extent that you'll be able to be around her without her stressing you out. If you feel like things are always going to be this way (her criticising, you responding, she getting upset) then you may have to consider cutting down contact.

One thing I could suggest, and something that helped with my mother, is to stop seeing her as a mother. "Mother" in most people's minds equates with a loving woman who has your best interests at heart. Unfortunately for a lot of us that isn't the reality. Could you start to view her as a crazy old relative who you have to put up with? Would that help to take the sting out of her comments? Since I stopped trying to get any sort of emotional response from my mother I'm a lot happier. I still have a civil relationship with her but for example I don't tell her any details of my life and I rarely ring her. Our relationship is distant but friendly. Would that be possible for you?

My mum is a bit like this. She's quite insecure about herself. Unlike yours she doesn't do the sobbing but she'll tell me how I make her think as though she can't do anything right etc.

I think it can be difficult for any parent to move on from the role of protector/provider and view their offspring as an equal.

My mother certainly believes that she can make personal/hurtful remarks to me that she would never dream of saying to anyone else. Some years ago when I was overweight she's genuinely believe she was being helpful by telling me how awful she thought I looked and I really should do something about it.

Guess what - now that I'm a healthy weight again and leading an active sporty lifestyle (because I have the time now that the kids are teens) in her view I'm treating 'poor dh' unfairly and I 'need to be careful or he'll be off with someone else'.

So nothing terribly helpful other than to suggest that you say to your mum perhaps she should speak to you as she would any other adult?

I'm not sure. If I stopped seeing her as a "mother", that would probably take a lot of pressure off. I'd still feel responsible for her though as I'm her only child and she has driven any friends and family away with her horrible behaviour. She is desperately lonely, I think, but I can see why that is. I really don't want her near me. Luckily, we live in different countries but I dread the day when she gets old and needs care. I would not be able to deal with it.

The things she says could partly be seen as "guidance" I guess (about 10%), but mostly not. She's a bitter, bitter woman of 58. Insulting my much loved half-siblings or telling me I deserved to be beaten as a child because I was born bad, being horrible to my dying cat and being sexually inappropriate to DH and other random men like the electricty guy aren't matters of "opinion", are they?

I think it would help me so much if she took responsibility for all the things she did to me because then we could have some sort of fresh start and I could see her rudeness as an old-lady thing (at 58 though???). But a distant relative wouldn't have had the influence she had over me during my childhood and teenage years.

I'm not even making sense with what I'm saying here. I'm just upset. Tbh, I do think she's stupid and she probably feels that but honestly, the stuff she does and says....

Your spot-on with her being immature though. She acts like a 10 year old, with a weird sexual component though.

Forty, some parallels here. DH is the golden boy and I'm horrible. Here quote about me "The most horrible women always get the best men".

I also do believe that she's really insecure, I get that and she also says "I can't do anything right" but tbh, she does very little right. It's always the other people who are in the wrong though. My dad was horrible to her, her family, her friends, her work people. There's not one person left that she seems to get on with. The whole world is horrible to her and she is the victim.

I will suggest the talking to me like an adult though.

DH's mum is like this. She is critical and capable of being quite nasty, but the minute you are assertive and defend yourself or point out her rudeness, she goes in to full on 'I cant do anything right' victim mode. She is also a very insecure person and quite immature, even child-like. She was abused as a child and had a really sjit upbringing, so I do see why she is the way she is, but it doesnt make it any easier to dea; with her.

We have contact with her, but we limit it and it is only ever on our terms. is it possible to limit contact with your mum? I know it is very hard and quite sad, but if she makes you feel this bad, maybe you do need to think about not seeing her/talking to her as much ..

birdsof If I do the withdrawing thing, how do I get over the guilt of leaving her "alone" though?

Contact can be limited easily as she's in Germany and I'm in the UK. When I go over to visit, I stay with my dad anyway. I just need to limit the amount of time she can come here to say 3 nights max. Last time she was here for almost 2 weeks and I was a wreck after. She missbehaved so badly, I had 2 massive threads about it on here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1333324-Can-abuse-ever-be-a-childs-fault

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1329153-My-mums-coming-to-visit-in-3-hours-I-just-want-to-cry

I wish she had a partner or more children so I could stop feeling responsible...

Ah now that you've said more about her I think my first post was off by a mile. I got the impression from your first post that she was a bit batty and critical but the fact that she was abusive to you as a child, is inappropriate around your DH and has alienated others in her life paints a different picture.

To be honest I think it is unhealthy to maintain contact with an abusive parent. It's not good for your mental health. I would be very wary about letting her near your child too.

I know you feel guilty and that's understandable but you are not responsible for her. She was responsible for you when you were a child and she did very little to fulfil that responsibility.

Have you had counselling? I think it may help you to come to terms with your childhood.

I think your attitude towards her is quite skewed really, possibly because of your childhood. You say in your other thread that she isn't horrible, but she is, she is about as horrible as you can get.

I've had counselling but didn't touch on those issues. I feel like I have come a long way recently but I'm just so confused.

I constantly swing between being angry about her behaviour and then feeling guilty for considering cutting contact and thinking about her in the way I do now. It's like there's no way out. I'll have to feel bad anyway, either because she makes me feel bad or because of the guilt if I don't put up with it.

Then of course I have the doubts. Because she can be nice for about 5 minutes and it does come across like she doesn't mean to be as horrible as she is a lot of the time.

I wish she'd get some therapy, though she'd probably paint a different picture there as well...

My mother is like this. I have never had a good relationship with her, our conversations have always ended in me being a failure or me doing something to hurt/upset her. When I was a child I used to get comments like your worthless and you were nothing but a mistake and I wish I never had you. The emotional abuse carried on till I was 19 then I decided enough was enough she threw me out at 18 I had nowhere to go all because I bought some £1.50 doughnuts with her money so I decided it was time to get out. So I moved out with my then partner and things started to become better in our relationship less arguing less phone calls, I could tolerate visits more. Then I split with my then partner and she didnt like that so it started agin her telling me i was worthless and useless. I then met my now partner and he hated how she was treatin me an couldn't stant to see my upset and angry like your partner. My mother hates my partner and the fact I have a new job and I am happy. I found that the less contact I have the happier I am, it wa hard to start with because this is your mum the woman who raised you and you dot want to hurt her or imagine her not being in your life but trust me it gets easier and now when I do go on special occasions like Christmas and birthdays I actually enjoy her company because I try an spend Little time there and of she starts Ieave because I can. You just need to break some contact just ring her every now and again

I think you need to accept that she isn't going to change. She doesn't see that there's anything wrong.

I can see why you're so torn. You're obviously a caring person and you feel bound to look after her. However, you're clearly at a turning point emotionally where you're realising that you don't have the energy to deal with her any more. Perhaps it's the pregnancy that's making you feel this way? The realisation that you now have a family of your own who needs you, and that you no longer have the inclination to wear yourself out being harassed by your mother?

I wonder how much help the counselling can have been, given that you didn't mention pretty much all the issues that contributed to your problems in the first place?

I remember the thing about nicking the dying cat's hot water bottle; there is no excuse you can make for the woman after that which would ever make me like her . About the best you can say is maybe she can't help it. You can't use the "old lady" excuse at her age, particularly given that she's been like it for the last 20 or so years to your knowledge, but you can make the "damaged person" excuse. Just assume she's mad so nothing she says will ever make sense or necessarily be true or even faintly logical, and then call her as often as you feel comfortable with.

If/when she ends up needing care, I'd suggest it was your obligation to arrange care for her, but not to do the caring yourself. At least let some poor sod be paid for having to put up with her little ways.

It definitely is the pregnancy thing. It has brought back a lot of memories and I now see how she is so not normal.

Another light bulb moment was this summer. I was really sick with Hyperemesis and at hers for her birthday. My granny and aunt (her sister) were there as well. They were sitting at the table but I was lying down on the sofa and only listened the whole afternoon, seeing the whole thing from an outside perspective. Honestly, it was a 4hour bitchfest. My mum and her sister had nothing positive to say, about anyone. It was all so destructive and sickening to listen to.

In contrast, I have my dad's side of the family who are just lovely. They have their flaws of course, as we all do, but they know it and can laugh about it.

I know I have my flaws. I'm really not a very patient person, I'm a pessimist and I know I need to work on myself because I notice I have a tendency to be negative like my mum as well. The difference is, I'm only 28 and aware of it, I'm trying consciously to be different and I already am a lot.

I just find it so infuriating that my mum, at almost 60, still is not able to reflect on her own behaviour and way of thinking. Surely no person can be so arrogant to think that they are always in the right and the rest of the world is wrong.

I need to make my peace with knowing I can't change her. DD is due at the start of February. I already shutter to think about when my mum will want to come and visit. I will no doubt be posting about the logistics again.

Amy Sorry about your mum. You sound very strong though and like you have found a reasonable solution for how to deal with her peacefully. I hope I'll get there as well.

Quite possibly it's not arrogance, but a personality disorder, which renders her incapable of seeing a different viewpoint. That would mean you can feel a little sorry for her if you like, but give up all hope of her ever changing, because she just can't.

Annie I'm so with you about the cat incident. You know, last night she said to me that she noticed that DH is starting to like her less as well, obviously because I was talking badly about her.

Well, he is liking her less but the reason for that is because he loved that cat as much as I did. We still talk about our Jerri every day 8 weeks on and the reason DH lost all respect for my mother is because of the hot-eater-bottle incident.

Good idea about just seeing her as a damaged person that therefore can't be taken seriously.

I believe that some people, for whatever reason, stop developing emotionally and get stuck at an immature level. Just like an 8 year old can't really reflect on their behaviour, some adults don't understand the impact their behaviour has on others. My mother isn't quite as bad as yours - I think she's stuck at about age 14, where she can be polite and deal with life adequately but she can't support others or have a great deal of empathy for their problems. If I look at her in those terms it's a lot easier to deal with her. It's utterly shit that she can't be an actual mother to me, and that at times I have to be a mother to her but at least I don't waste my time looking for support from a teenager.

I can understand your worry about what will happen when the baby is born. I think you need to convince yourself of the fact that you are not required to have a relationship with her. At all. If you do have a relationship it's fine for you to try to control it and to limit its extent. It's good that you're gaining DH's support, that will help, and that your inlaws are nice.

I know how it all feels. She either knows what she's doing or she is a little nuts either way she can't act reasonably or doesn't want to so how can you make someone undertstand you that is unreasonable? You will always be fighting a losing battle and it will end up in arguments and you feeling like a bully or bad even though it's not you. She will always turn it back around to it being you. If she's anything like my mum she will never ever say she's wrong, will never own up to her wrongdoings and never take responsibility instead she will always turn it around, make you feel bad and leave you feeling it's all you and your fault. My mum never ever says sorry.

I'm not perfect and sometimes get drawn in but the only way I have found to deal with it is to not tell her what she's done wrong she will never understand or say sorry. She never changes so I've found it's a waste of time talking to her or getting involved with trying to make her see what she does. Unfortunately this has resulted in me keeping my distance and I find it hard to talk to her. If there is any hint of her being nasty or digging etc I just walk away and say I have to go or if I'm on the telephone I say I have to go now. As I said before not always perfect and sometimes bite back but I try to handle it the way of taking the high road and not engaging in it.

Do you see our mum a lot ?

I left out that if you do engage with her you will feel rubbish as you say things you don't really want to say but she will push you into it. Also she wills make you feel bad , it's all negativity you don't need. All you can do when she criticise s you is tell her you have to go. Soon she will get fed up off taking her anger and bitterness out on you. Worst thing you can do is get into it with her, she will never be reasonable enough to understand you or change. Maybe she will change that's what I'm hoping with my mum if you don't react and be passive with her and say your going now etc. I often feel they just want someone to have a go at.

MrsH I have posted recently about my DH's toxic family, and received some really good advice - including getting a copy of Toxic Parents which I've started reading and which is very helpful. (Thanks to everyone who recommended it - and sorry for the little hijack).

Your mother is toxic - any woman who tells her child that they deserved to be be physically abused because they were "born bad" doesn't deserve to be a mother.

She either has a personality disorder or mental illness, or she is just really, really, really nasty (or a combination of the two).

I'm so sorry that you're going through this with her, and the answer does lie in cutting contact with her and not allowing her to upset you. Somehow you have to find a way to detach yourself mentally. This is much easier said than done (DH is going through this realisation at the moment, but resisting like mad), but Toxic Parents would be a good place to start.

I think that you're feeling worse about your relationship with your mum at the moment because you're about to become a mother yourself, and you're comparing how you relationship is with her to the one you want to have with your children. Understandable.

You don't owe her anything. If she needs care when she gets older and you're not there to provide it (you mentioned that this was one of your fears upthread) - well, she'll only have herself to blame.

Please be kind to yourself and your DH and your babies and do not speak to this horrible woman. Concentrate on being a good mum to your babies, and don't allow your mother to inflict her garbage on another generation. Wishing you strength - it's not easy and I really, really sympathise.