Best friend is sick of me telling her to bin her boyfriends. Should I stop?

[dreamingbohemian]

My best friend who is really more like a sister to me has terrible, terrible taste in men. No judgment -- so did I, until I met DH! But I am really starting to get worried about her as I think her latest boyfriend might be really bad news.

Basically, she always falls for very complicated men. Part of it is that she equates complicated with interesting (which I so used to do myself!), part of it is that she feels she herself is really complicated and therefore only another complicated person can deal with her.

These relationships tend to be intense but short. They always get sticky and she'll ask me honestly what I think she should do and invariably I say bin him, because life is too short and relationships shouldn't be so much work.

But now she is reaching the point where she feels like she always runs away from relationships and it's probably her that is the problem and she just needs to work harder.

The problem is that the man she is with right now, who she really doesn't want to run away from, has sooooo many red flags about controlling behaviour, I don't even know where to start. He seems nice enough but he ticks so many boxes on the MN Warning List, I'm really worried.

But because I've been so quick to say 'bin him' in the past, my friend basically thinks I just give up too easy, that I'm too hard or something. I can tell she really doesn't want to hear it from me right now.

Should I keep saying it anyway? My fear is that I will annoy her, she will stop telling me what's going on, and then he will have her all isolated, as I think he wants.

I love her so much, I just want her to be okay

it's always the way isn't it? bloody timing. the point where you realise actually 'i' have some issues and it may be me who keeps running away therefore i should stick it out and try and work them through for once always happens when you're with the complete twatter who should be running from.

the other cliche is that after picking loads of shit men over and over you tell yourself it's me, it's my problem and try 'to make it work' with the latest shit man rather than accept it's not what you're doing in relationships that's the problem it's the people you're picking that are the problem.

tangled webs....

no good advice. will mull on it but just wanted to say i hear what you're saying i think and it rang bells for me when i was younger.

from her point of view you are just going to look like the smug one in the nice long relationship who doesn't want her to be happy

I would imagine she'll only be ready to hear your message when she's ready. All you can do until then is be around as a good friend.

frankly if she thinks she's a fucked up complicated person she will continue to think only fucked up complicated people will be capable of liking her

it's her she's got to feel better about isn't it?

A friend of mine got back with a horrible abusive bitch, and asked my opinion on it. I told him that I actually hated her, and that he was a great guy who deserved a lot better than her, but that that was my problem and I would say no more about it and I didn't until I got the golden text a few months later saying they'd split up. I was so relieved I jumped around the room. I think what I said hit home as he was able to decide for himself without pressure from me that she wasn't good enough and now he's with an absolutely lovely girl and is moving in with her next year.

Do you think that would work with your friend? Just sit her down, point out the problems you have with the guy and then say that's the last you'll say on it? Or would that get her back up too much?

Take her by the hand,
bring her here,
print out the warning list(s),
then vow to leave her to it or at least to reserve opinion until she asks...but still be her friend.

Thanks for the replies!

I've just had another email from her -- she is staying with this guy right now and it's going very badly. Basically he has trust issues (tick!) because of a bad experience with an ex (tick!) that he can't even tell her about (tick tick tick!)

He basically doesn't want her having any real contact with any other men, unless he is there. And they are long distance at the moment, so that means, really, never.

At first she thought he meant just not dating other guys, but he really means, like, everything. He was upset that she walked down the street to the metro with a gay male colleague. He doesn't want her doing karate anymore. We live in France, where naturally you greet people with two kisses on the cheek, and he doesn't want her to do that anymore -- even when she explained how horribly rude it would be, he didn't care (he's not French).

She is thinking about moving to where he lives

She thinks he wont' be so paranoid if they live in the same place. And she thinks he is lovely apart from this, so if they can just solve this issue, everything will be great.

Santa you are right, it is such bad timing, she wants to work on a relationship and has found a way to see it so that there is just one issue to solve.

I do worry about coming off as smug when I tell her to leave -- but I don't think she thinks that, after all she knows i have 20 years of disastrous dating experience, and that I consider it pure luck that I found DH, not superior dating ability or anything!

But because I have always told her to leave, I feel like the impact of my words is diminished. Even though this is by far the worst situation I've seen her in and I really want her to leave!

dear lordy, he does sound really bad!!!

I think priinting out the warning lists sounds a great idea.

Cailin, I think she would listen, but I also worry she might just stop telling me what's going on, which I think would be very bad. I could easily see this guy convincing her that his requests are normal and she's the one with problems, unless there is someone else telling her that he's the one with issues.

Migrating, yes, he's a total wackjob.

Is there an actual warning list??? I was speaking metaphorically but if there is some kind of checklist I could actually send her, that might be helpful.

In future (once this mess is out of the way) - can you (and other mutual friends) do a bit of setting her up with men who you think are good prospects? Maybe she doesn't know what it feels like to be treated well by someone who is considerate, kind, romantic and reasonable!

I've seen them on other threads but would have no idea where to look.

You could try starting a new thread with that very question as the title. Someone would have one.

Hmm think I'll do a search later...

Part of the problem is that he insists things will be fine once she moves to his city and I think she believes this.

But that's not really possible, is it?

Early, that's a good idea, but I don't think she would play along... not sure I know any good prospects anyway!

things will be fine when i have you 100% under my control and surveillance. yeah that sounds great doesn't it?

god.

one thing i think makes us vulnerable to controlling men is having had parents that didn't pay as much attention or supervise us much in adolescence (i know having a history of being really controlled can do it too but this one never seems to get talked about). adolescence without parental involvement or boundaries and controls can be really scary and you just don't feel loved or taken care of or as if the world is safe. i reckon it can leave a gap for someone to come in and control and tell what to do and show concern over who you see, where you go, how you dress etc etc etc and for it to feel like finally being loved and cared about and like you're safe in the world.

thankfully i grew out of it but i was very vulnerable to a complete scary control freak when i was in my teens at one stage precisely because i had no parental controls and him controlling me felt like love.

no idea if this has any bearing on your friend. obviously a history of abuse or controlling parents can do it but just throwing in another dynamic that can set up this kind of 'hole' that these men can fill.

Bohemian - I'm on my phone but if you google "Am I in an abusive relationship" lots of check lists come up...

He was upset that she walked down the street to the metro with a gay male colleague. He doesn't want her doing karate anymore. We live in France, where naturally you greet people with two kisses on the cheek, and he doesn't want her to do that anymore -- even when she explained how horribly rude it would be, he didn't care (he's not French).

This is a HUGE red flag to me. Is he muslim by any chance? (Asking cos I had these same issues with my ex who was).

She's crazy to consider moving to his - she'll be there without a support system around and he can completely isolate her.

Can you talk to her about it from that angle?

But at the end of the day you can talk till you're blue in the face and just have to let them get on with it and let her know you'll always be there for her (when she has to do a runner).

You only have to google "red flags in relationships" to get a whole load of websites on it.
Here's one:

He (or SHE) tries to take you on as some sort of "project" and attempt to "improve" you, as if you need to be "fixed" and he/she's doing you some sort of favor.

It's a bit USA speak but good all the same:
www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/redflaglist.shtml

Santa -- that's very interesting to think about, thanks. I know my friend had a very tumultuous adolescence, moving around a lot. I think really, though, the biggest factor is that she's never really had (for lack of a better word) a 'normal' relationship, so she is very vulnerable to men telling her that they are the reasonable ones.

Robot -- thanks

Suburb -- he's American! and not Muslim, or evangelical Christian. He's a total lefty hippie too which just makes no sense at all. It's even more of a red flag for me because it's not like a cultural thing, it's just his issues.

Ironically enough he is using fundamentalist logic though, this idea that he trusts my friend but he doesn't trust all the other men in the world.

I've had another email too, he's asking her why she can't just live within his guidelines and make him happy

and she doesn't see that as a problem??

Well she does, that's why she telling me about it -- but she thinks he's lovely 'except for this one issue', so she's not sure she should bin him.

If she is asking for an opinion from you, then I would tell her exactly what you think. This 'one issue' is huge. Its worth trying to explain to her where it will end up if she allows him to control her like this.

I am being honest with her but also trying not to alienate her, so she stops telling me what's going on...

That's a good idea, to paint a picture of what her life would have to be like in order to please him.

I just don't understand how men like this still exist in the 21st century!! It makes me so

her response should be 'because i'm an actual whole human being myself too. if that's a problem for you to grasp then i think you need therapy?'

Apparently he doesn't believe in therapy. Gee, I wonder why!

I do think, eventually, she will end it. I just can't see her going along with this for the long term. But I'm really worried about her while she's still in it, there is always the chance he can talk her round and I'm worried he will get violent if she tries to end it

have you suggested she gets therapy?

if she does end it with him and you have a 'way do I always end up with jerks' conversation again, this might be worth suggesting to her.

certainly worth it if it stop her ending up with tossers like this one.