how do you know if you still love someone?

[SnotandBothered]

This will be haphazard and disorganised - but I need to get it out.

Bit of background

Have been together 17 years, married for 8. 2 DC of 6 & 3. Our relationship has always been volatile - not though my preference but because DH has a lot of unresolved issues/anger that surface periodically and make life hard. Over the years, I have asked him to get help and he flat refuses offering strings of excuses from: I can't talk to strangers to if we open this can of worms it will be so much worse than it already is.

For the past 4 years DH has been drinking. Not much - just a couple of beers in the evening but enough to make him snappy and unpleasant to be around. Any significant drinking (which rarely happens) results in very unpleasant behaviour: argumentative, verbal and emotional abuse. This used to be met with remorse but not so much the last couple of times.

Arguments and bickering are constant and the verbal blows being delivered are getting lower and lower - I don't know how you come back from some of the things that have been said.

Of course the cliche is that DH is a brilliant father (in all but rare moments), can be loving, affectionate, genrous and aware of his shortcomings. He is hard-working and has spent years in a very stressful job to give his family all we need. When he is being the person I spent 10 years with, he is funny, a good listener and my best friend. But I don't see much of that person any more

There is no joy in life. I have started to dread him coming home because he will either be on a complete downer - I believe he has real depression - or he will be raging angry with someone or something which will sooner or later lead to him picking a fight with me. He is convinced that there is some serious underlying illness so refuses to see a doctor for fear of 'being diagnosed' (and has done so since I've been with him).

A REASONABLE person would, I believe, see a doctor/seek councelling in order to address these issues. It doesn't matter that I've pointed out the selfishness to me and the DCs in living in such tempestuous (sp) circumstances. I've told him he deserves to be happier than he is and should do it for himself. I've told him he is allowing his past to dicate his present and future when he could be free. I've threatened to leave, I've threatened to stay forever.

I have found myself saying awful things to him - to hurt him back I suppose and I hate myself for that. I find myself being overbearingly lovely in order to kill him with kindness and hate myself for that even more.

Nothing works

He is now going through a particularloy self-pitying and spiteful phase and today he decided to demonstrate how 'unhappy I've made him' by not talking to me on my birthday. He has called once to say that 'he hates me but will never let me leave and that he would rather be unhappy and know that I am unhappy than let either of us have a fresh start'. He has never sunk this low before in terms of unkindness.

I am at work and I have been crying all day

My mum has just been diagnosed with Altzheimers - she has deteriorated very rapidly and I can't talk to her any more. He has been amazing with her. She has become very agressive and focussed on me as the 'enemy' and he has deflected a lot of the targeted anger away from me. He goes round to see her and is actually far more patient with her than I am.

But then he tells me that she is 'mad and a fucking nightmare' knowing that I would give anything to just have a normal mum/daughter relationship. I am an only child and don't really have a best friend or someone I can confide in.

I am exhasusted by the emotional rollercoaster, but mostly confused. If I was sure I still loved him, I would at least know I was fighting on for a reason. I think I do but I'm not sure if the emptyness is just a hollow feeling because I am unhappy or if it's becasue I don't love him any more.

How do you know?

And thank you to anyone who has listened to the ramble

How do you know? Because you cant live without them, you still fancy them, you cannot imagine yourself with anybody else, life would not be complete with out them. If you have to ask yourself then you dont love them.

I think you have a lot on your plate with your Mum and your DCs, never mind a DH who says such awful things to you (and they are awful, you know that!).

Imagine you woke up one day and he was gone for good, how would you feel? If it is relief, you probably don't love him. If it is unbearable pain, you probably do.

A better question is, is love enough? Enough to stay with a man who won't do anything to get out of the horrible position he is in, that he is dragging you into too. Love isn't always enough, no matter what films tell you!

What insomniac said. No matter if you do love someone, sometimes they are unbearable to be around.

Actually I went through the same situation, but I was your partner. My boyfriend couldn't stand to be around me because of my issues - I was angry, controlling, said horrible things. We split up and I couldn't understand why, I knew he loved me, but he said it was just too hard for him and I was making him feel bad.

6 years on, we are together and I'm so much better, less angry and so on. I'm really glad he didn't stay with me, because it gave me time to sort myself out and meant I didn't hurt him as much as I could.

Not saying these things always have a happy ending, but it is possible to love someone but be unable to be with them.

Also, if he won't accept help, what more can you do?

Hello, just wanted to say I identified with a lot of what you say in your post. Am in a similar situation (exhausted and confused due to the "emotional rollercoaster" of an emotionally and verbally abusive partner) - but we've only been together for 3 years(but already have a DD). His behaviour for the past 2.5 years though has really crushed any feelings I had for him, and if I'm honest, I don't really love him - the nearest I get nowadays is pity or affection as a co-parent.

I sometimes wonder if we had counselling and he changed, if we could get back to how we were at the beginning - because he can be lovely, just not with me most of the time.

Problem is, he won't agree to going to counselling, unless we're trying to make up after a big row and then he might say "ok" to reassure me, before changing the goal posts at the next opportunity.
I think if someone's unwilling to take responsibility for improving the relationship after repeated attempts on your part, then that leaves you with very few options other than to leave - which I'm considering.

I hope he didn't manage to make your birthday totally miserable. Just remember, it's him, not you!

sounds a lot like my ex. did eventually agree to counselling but didn't shift his attitude and eventually there was nothing but his rage and us (me and children) cowering.

you can't love someone who is being abusive. you might stay with them out of fear or confusion or not knowing what to do, but it's not love anymore.

unfortunately they get even angrier when you suggest separating and apparently the next few months are potentially quite dangerous. so if you do decide to call it quits, try to be rational and organised, don't engage in warfare/coversations that are only going downhill. try to keep it simple and civil until you're in your own places and have both cooled down a bit. there is a lot of hurt in the air.

i feel for you.. all the best

His stated desire to not let you leave and start afresh with somebody else is a bit worrying. And I'm not sure you should ever have to "fight" to keep a relationship going. You (and he) sound miserable. You have two choices: relationship counselling to try and improve things or leaving. You know in your heart of hearts you can't carry on the way you are - his behaviour towards you has been appalling and you have to think about the message that is sending to your DC.

Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

I was reading your post thinking how very very very similar it is to my own situation, length of time together, children, other life stresses etc.

H and I are in counselling as a couple but it's a farce as he doesn't see that we are in counselling because he has issues which he takes out on me and this has given me grounds for divorce on the basis of unreasonable behaviour. He wants to stay married but I don't unless he changes back to be a lot more like the man I married. He thinks we both need to communicate better which involves me timetabling everything I do, am planning to do, for his perusal/benefit.

I want him to get a taste for being counselled and stick with it to address his issues. I plan to drop out after Christmas and ask for separation, if he won't agree to that I will go straight for a divorce petition.

I worry about the children and the effect on them but as he his behaviour has been shitty for so long I've always explained very carefully and sympathetically to them when they've asked questions about friends who have split up or classmates whose parents no longer live together. I hope they will understand as they've started to be affected by his behaviour to me.

The main thing I want to say is when I was considering what path I ought to take to shake off this huge negative influence/shadow over my life, I thought how would I feel if H maybe had a car crash and didn't survive. Do you know what came to mind ? I just don't think I'd be sad, but I would weep for our children's loss of their father. So that's how I decided that I don't love him anymore.

If we divorce my heart won't sink each time he comes home, wondering what sort of mood he is in, because he won't be coming home to the same home as the children and I each night. I won't be worrying more with each beer he consumes in the knowledge that he'll pick a fight sooner or later, alcohol makes him nasty to me. I know I'll probably be lonely but at least I can grieve properly for the relationship instead of hoping a miracle will change his behaviour and everything will improve.

Sorry for not responding sooner, have been working. Am going to read all the posts now and respond. Thank you all so much for taking the time to read about and consider my situation. I feel a bit less alone now

It's almost spooky how many parallels there are in some of your posts. Considering that I know his behavior is completely unreasonable, it's a worry to find that other people are or have been through exactly the same.

So last night was f*ing awful. Silent and cold. I knew that he was kicking himself for taking it this far and that he wanted to 'do the right thing' but he wasn't man enough/rational enough to admit that he was behaving appallingly and attempt to apologize or rectify. So i went to bed with the DCs at 8 oclock, hungry and sad.

He was still ranting about how 'unbelievably selfish and twisted' I am when he came up to bed, so I ignored him and pretended to be asleep. He woke up at about 3am and was sick. I honestly think this is because he had worked himself up into such a rage and tied himself in knots. I felt no sympathy. He woke me up at 5 to talk.

Usually I would have told him to get lost and wake me up because he wants to talk, but I was in such turmoil that I went with it and listened to it all spew out. The things he said are:

1. He is and has been out of his comfort zone workwise for years in order to provide for us. He constantly feels like he is about to 'exposed' and the pressure is becoming too much. He has just lost a lot of revenue and is terrified of how we will survive. I accept these facts to be true, but they are not unique and don't excuse his behavior although they do explain it.

1. His toxic childhood has damaged and confused him. I accept this 100%. He was exposed to dreadful parenting and messages.

1. He thinks he is having some kind of mental breakdown.

1. He has terrible guilt about his mother who is in a home as she needs physical care beyond the abilities of a family member

1. He wants to make it all stop but doesn't know how. He owns a business and can't afford to take time off

There were tears, I love you's etc which went some way towards making me feel that he still a human who feels remorse and is just very lost/confused. I told him he must stop drinking for a while and that he needs professional help. He has agreed to the drinking but not the help. He says all he needs is to be 'locked in a cottage for 3 months with no pressures' - but I don't see how this is feasible. I work as much as I can but our monthly outgoings are really high and I can't earn enough to pay the mortgate, bills etc.

So whilst I really want to take advantage of his 'insight' / willingness to try something to see if anything of our relationship can be salvaged, I don't see how to implement anything if he won't get therapy/counselling. Also '3 months in a cottage' aside, there is nowhere where one of us can go for 'head space'. We just can't afford it.

So I don't know what to do next.

Oh and we have social workers coming to assess my mum tomorrow. I have just told her that they will be visiting and she screamed that I was a bitch and if they came to her house she would never speak to me again

DH has taken this on board and is dealing with this. So he does have a good side.

I just don't get to see it very often and I still don't if I love him

You shouldn't still love him the way he is treating you, that's for sure.

You sound so low about it all, and yet are making excuses for him. Lots of people have toxic childhoods and every one of the other issues you mention he has. But they don't treat the person they love in the way you are being treated.

Flip the argument over- does he love you? Not from his behaviour he doesn't.

Came across an interesting looking book by Lundy Bancroft called "Should I stay or should I go" (he wrote the much-cited Why does he do that?), have only read a sample so far (on Kindle) but it looks very helpful and well written. HTH.

I don't know whether you have anything left to salvage or not, but depression on its own can make someone a nightmare to live with. I have experienced (second-hand) that 'not wanting to go to the doctor as convinced of having some possibly terminal physical illness' thing so serious depression remained untreated for years and years. Is there a helpline about mental illness you could call to talk through and get support with that side of it, maybe?

Do you only want him when things are good? Surely he is entitled to support if he carries the financial burden of your family on his shoulders and you shoulder nothing surely he is entitled to feel as bad as he does.

Have you tried to get a job to help relieve the financial burden the stress it all puts on him or are you going to sit there and feel sorry for yourself.

Marriage is a two way street you both have to pull your weight.

If you dont love him let him be free to be loved by someone else more supportive.

Absolutely no need, Fabby... fgs.

OK the OP's husband does sound very stressed out by financial worries but..the OP said she was "at work" so I presume she is "pulling her weight"-
not that her being a SAHM or unemployed would justify his abusive behaviour, although it might explain his stress and depression.

I think encouraging him to seek counselling and to seek his own happiness, as the OP says, is being supportive, isn't it?

I know this is over a month old but I came back to see if you had posted again OP as we have sooooo many similarities in our situation and I really feel you. Hoping you are getting through this one wway or another.

Any news ?

P.S. ignore FabbyChic, everyone else does. She seems to have cornered the market in the uninformed, judgy pants, knee jerk style of response favoured by Daily Mail readers.