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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Crushed by narcissist / Stately Homing mother - does letter writing help?

21 replies

benguiat · 07/12/2011 16:18

My mother is the classic narcissist mother described in the Stately Homes thread. Myself and one of my brothers have had therapy and anti-depressants to try and deal with our upbringing. My other brother, who was not as strong as us, has had a wreckage strewn adulthood. Now aged 40 he has no other friend in the world but her and calls her up to 5 times a day. She of course encourages his dependence on her. Anyway that is a whole other thread.

Despite the verbal abuse, negativity and mind-bending illogicality of every interaction with my mother, I still love her and wish with all my heart that things were different. When I left home she took the opportunity to move herself and my dad to the other end of the country. She is in the middle of nowhere and it is a 5 hour drive to get to her. The remoteness of their house and their social isolation seems to have compounded our terrible family dynamics.

When you make the journey to their house, within 5 minutes of walking through the door a silence descends. My parents are not great talkers and my mother's negativity towards any conversational gambit means even my partner, who is a social butterfly, feels utterly crushed. I cannot bear to visit. And this lack of visiting from her children makes my mother (even more) bitter and hostile.

Instead I have taken to encouraging them to stay with us. In the city, with things to do - distractions - our relationship seems to be much better. My mother is also slightly (only slightly) better behaved in my house.

My pipe dream is that if I can get them to move from their ridiculous current location, where they have no friends and literally nothing to do, then perhaps our family may start to gel a little. If my brothers and I see them more frequently and in smaller doses then perhaps they will become more socialised. Happier even! My dad would move tomorrow and has said so, but my mother says she likes living where she is. When I try to persuade her she says she can't think about it "now" because of x, y and z. What x, y and z are changes every month, but there is always something.

So I come to my question - most conversations with my mother descend into her accusing me of nagging / being cruel / upsetting her / being selfish / being wicked. They are completely pointless and if I'm honest do my mental health no good at all. I am often in tears at the end of phone conversations.

But I wonder if a letter, a loving one, would do any good. Has anyone ever tried this? If I write a letter I'm not sure I can avoid the elephant in the room which is her absolutely mental destructive behaviour, and that obviously wouldn't go down too well. What can I say that might help? I do not want to make things worse and have the contents of the letter thrown back in my face for the rest of our lives.

Please help!

OP posts:
SarkySpanner · 07/12/2011 16:22

what positive benefit do you think a letter might have?

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 07/12/2011 16:25

Here's my view, OP, feel free to take it or leave it:

  • No, a letter will not help them. Their inevitably negative reaction to it might help you to emotionally detach from them, though.
  • Stop dreaming that you can "help" them, improve their life, etc. Only they can help themselves, IF they want to.
gobbycow · 07/12/2011 16:34

No there is nothing you can do. A letter may clarify things in your own mind though.

"Mind bending illogicality of every interaction"

....Yes, I TOTALLY get that, and that gives a clue as to what THEY need to do to overcome THEIR problems.

Look after yourself.

HoudiniHissy · 07/12/2011 16:37

They won't see your letter as help. They think THEY are the supreme beings and you are merely there to dance to their tune.

No, I don't think a letter will work.

I also don't think you should even attempt to save them. Look at the potential cost you may have to pay to have them in an increased capacity in your life.

Look at what you had to do to survive your childhood. Look what it has done to your brother.

Narcs aren't happy till they suck the joy and life out of everyone around them.

Count yourselves LUCKY that you are so remote from them. Keep it that way.

Stop trying to think that they will want to be better people/parents. They absolutely DON'T.

TooManyStuffedBirds · 07/12/2011 16:38

I agree with Puppy.

Imho, it comes down to living your own life, and letting them live theirs.
Sorry, but I really don't think it is up to you to manage dmother's level of socialization.

Let her be. The consequences of that is her problem, not yours. If your dfather really, really wanted to move, he would.

If you don't want to be around her, then don't. Be honest. We do need to decide some things for ourselves (be on our own team) every once in a while. Wink

Didn't mean to sound so preachy! Blush

AttilaTheMeerkat · 07/12/2011 16:39

No, a letter won't help them and could be used by your mother as a weapon against you. Narcissists can and certainly do have venomous tongues to boot. All you can do is protect yourself and your own family unit from such overtly malign influences. You cannot help such people and your pipe dream will remain that; they don't want to know.

The absolute worst thing you can tell a narcissist is that you love them, they have chosen the choice not to love. It is not your fault your mother is like this, her own birth family did that.

If you've never read "Children of the Self Absorbed" I would suggest you do so. Also the website entitled "Daughters of narcissistic mothers" may also help you.

Have you thought about cutting your mother and her enabler H (would not let him off the hook as he is a party to what has gone on) out of your life altogether?.

TooManyStuffedBirds · 07/12/2011 16:40

X post with Gobby & Hissy-
I agree with their posts too! Grin

TheMouseRanUpTheClock · 07/12/2011 16:52

I echo what has been said, focus on yourself, count yourself lucky they live so far away from you, you can't save them, they will suck the joy any any good in your life out of you.

benguiat · 07/12/2011 16:58

Oh no, this is very sad. Thanks for all your responses. I absolutely hear all the things you're saying. And I know that I may be fooling myself if I think that them moving house is the answer.

However I do have the evidence of our interactions when they come to stay at my house. My mother is better here. And if she was just visiting for lunch, or a cup of tea, because she lived down the road, then the experience may be even better. When I go to stay with them after 5 minutes both myself and my partner are wishing we could leave. When they come here that process takes a few hours, maybe even a day (if we are busy!).

In my adult life, because of their move, I have actually never had a 'casual' interaction with them like a lunch or a small outing. Because their distance has always meant spending at least a night in eachothers company. This is too much time to be pleasant.

I see my partners family and how normal and easy it is with them. It makes me so sad that it can't be like that in my family. I have a terrible fear that my parents will die (they are in their early 70s now) and we will never have been any closer. I am crying now just thinking about it. Sad

If my parents moved and my mother was less bitter about her dreadful children who don't see her enough, then perhaps my brother's life would improve too. He might return from the even more remote place he has sequestered himself. I just feel it's worth a shot, if only because I can't accept that the alternative is that things stay the same, my parents die and I then have to live with the emptiness and grief that follows. Sad

OP posts:
TheMouseRanUpTheClock · 07/12/2011 17:01

God love you, it is just too hard for you to accept, you will still get the same answers if your Mother is a Narc she won't and can't change!

benguiat · 07/12/2011 17:10

Just on the letter idea.... It's that talking to my mother, as those of you with similar mothers will know, is impossible. Any attempt to talk honestly about the past is met with denial, followed by accusations of you lying, followed by accusations about your selfishness and cruelty. Any emotions that you might demonstrate will be seized on and exploited. These reduce me to inarticulate rage and hurt.

However I still think deep down inside her there is a kernel of a rational person. And if I could express myself lovingly and clearly in a letter then it would give her time to absorb what I say and be persuaded by my arguments. I guess as you all say there's not a lot of point in going over things that might elicit a defensive response from her. Perhaps just an "I wanted to write so that you know that I mean it, I love you and I wish you would move because I think it would be the best for all of us" is all I need to say.

My survival technique up to this point in my life is to not confront her and as far as possible to let her comments and behaviour slide off me. So perhaps any letter should be in that vein - not referring to her behaviour at all, but just my hopes for all our futures.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 07/12/2011 17:52

Hi Benguiat

re your comment:-
"However I still think deep down inside her there is a kernel of a rational person. And if I could express myself lovingly and clearly in a letter then it would give her time to absorb what I say and be persuaded by my arguments".

I do not mean the following comment at all unkindly but I did smile wryly to myself when I read the above. My ILs and BIL are all narcissists and I can tell you now that none of them at all rational. My BIL has turned spite agsinst us into an artform. ILs appear plausible to those int outside world and see themselves as good dutiful people. For the state of my mental health I keep my distance from them; its the only way.

In your case any letter will be seized upon by them and used to bite you on the behind. Don't send anything to them, best thing by far you can do is to cut them off. If my ILs were actually my parents I would have cut them out many years before now.

You may find the following from halycon.com helpful:-

"First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

It's very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship.

I always have the problem that I get fed up and stay away from THEM long enough to forget exactly what the trouble was, then they come around again, and every narcissist I've known actually was quite lovable about half the time so I try it again. A clue: Run for cover when they start acting normal, maybe expressing a becoming self-doubt or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven't treated you right or that they took advantage of you before. They're just softening you up for something really nasty. These people are geniuses of "Come closer so I can slap you." Except that's not the way they think about it, if they think about it no, they're thinking, "Well, maybe you do really care about me, and, if you really care about me, then maybe you'll help me with this," only by "help" they mean do the whole thing, take total responsibility for it, including protecting and defending them and cleaning up the mess they've already made of it (which they will neglect to fill you in on because they haven't really been paying attention, have they, so how would they know??). They will not have considered for one second how much of your time it will take, how much trouble it may get you into in their behalf, that they will owe you BIG for this no, you're just going to do it all out of the goodness of your heart, which they are delighted to exploit yet again, and your virtue will be its own reward: it's supposed to just tickle you pink to be offered this generous opportunity of showing how much you love them and/or how lucky you are to be the servant of such a luminous personage. No lie they think other people do stuff for the same reason they do: to show off, to perform for an audience. That's one of the reasons they make outrageous demands, put you on the spot and create scenes in public: they're being generous they're trying to share the spotlight with you by giving you the chance to show off how absolutely stunningly devoted-to-them you are. It means that they love you; that's why they're hurt and bewildered when you angrily reject this invitation.

Appearances are all there is with narcissists and their self-hatred knows no bounds. The most dramatic example I can think of is from John Cheever's journals. Throughout his life he had pursued surreptitious homosexual activities, being transiently infatuated with young men who reminded him of himself in his youth, while also living in a superficially settled way as a married family man, a respected writer with an enviable suburban life, breeding pedigreed dogs and serving on the vestry of the Episcopal church. When his secret life (going to New York City for a few days every now and then to pick up sailors and other beautiful boys for brief flings) came to scandalous light, his family sought to reassure him by telling him that they'd known about his homosexual activities for years. Now, a normal person would be ashamed and embarrassed but also relieved and grateful that scandal, not to mention chronic emotional and marital infidelity, had not caused his wife and children to reject and abandon him but not the narcissist! Oh, no, Cheever was enraged that they would ever have thought such a thing of him -- if they really loved him, they'd have bought his artificial "country squire" persona: they would have seen him as he wished to be seen: they would have believed his lies without question or doubt.

Narcissists don't volunteer the usual personal information about themselves, so they may seem secretive or perhaps unusually reserved or very jealous of their privacy. All these things are true, but with the special narcissistic twist that, first, their real life isn't interesting to them so it doesn't occur to them that it would be interesting to anyone else and, second, since they have not yet been transfigured into the Star of the Universe, they're ashamed of their real life. They feel that their jobs, their friends and families, their homes and possessions aren't good enough for them, they deserve better.

Narcissists not only don't recognize the feelings and autonomy of others, they don't recognize their own feelings as their own. Their feelings are sort of like the weather, atmospheric, acts of God. The narcissistic think that everyone's having the same feeling as they are. This means that usually their own pain means nothing to them beyond the physical discomfort it has no affective component. When they do get some painful affect, they think that God is punishing them they think that their trivial errors are worth God's specific attention to their punishment. If you try to straighten them out, by telling them that your feelings are different, beware: their idea of sharing their feelings is to do or say something that makes you feel the way they're feeling and, as they make a point of not sharing anything desirable, you can expect something really nasty. The sad fact seems to be that narcissists feel just as bad about themselves as they make others feel about them.

Narcissists are noted for their negative, pessimistic, cynical, or gloomy outlook on life. Sarcasm seems to be a narcissistic specialty, not to mention spite. Lacking love and pleasure, they don't have a good reason for anything they do and they think everyone else is just like them, except they're honest and the rest of us are hypocrites. Nothing real is ever perfect enough to satisfy them, so are they are constantly complaining and criticizing -- to the point of verbal abuse and insult.

Narcissists are impulsive. They undo themselves by behavior that seems oddly stupid for people as intelligent as they are. Somehow, they don't consider the probable consequences of their actions. It's not clear to me whether they just expect to get away with doing anything they feel like at the moment or whether this impulsiveness is essentially a cognitive shortcoming deriving from the static psychic state with its distorted perception of time.

Narcissists hate to live alone. Their inner resources are skimpy, static, and sterile, nothing interesting or attractive going on in their hearts and minds, so they don't want to be stuck with themselves. All they have inside is the image of perfection that, being mere mortals like the rest of us, they will inevitably fall short of attaining".

beatenbyayellowteacup · 07/12/2011 18:52

Obviously do what you like, but I suspect your mother will react irrationally - why wouldn't she?! And there'll be ideas in writing which are there to be brought up whenever she wants to. I really wouldn't.

I wrote a letter to my n mother when i moved abroad 9 years ago, a real "I love you" letter (although partially driven out of guilt for leaving). In August I challenged her behaviour and she threw the letter back and me as it was no longer relevant..my point is you never know what she'll do with it, and when. If you need to say anything, do it in person. Or better, leave alone and accept the situation for what it is, and grieve it.

MizzyFlizzy · 07/12/2011 18:54

I think if you write a letter...it needs to be because it will do you some good. Do it for yourself and no-one else.

Writing a letter and hoping for your family to change, after all this time, from my experience is an exercise in futility.

...and please, please, please do have a re-think on these people moving physically closer.

People like this living on your doorstep have an unnerving ability to overtake your life completely...and the worse bit is you won't even see it happening.

If I were you I'd let sleeping dogs lie...they are quiet and non bothersome at the moment...personally I'd avoid poking them at all cost.

gobbycow · 07/12/2011 19:11

I have personally found reading Alexander Lowens' book on Narcissism truly illuminating. It takes away the hate and frustration, that you really don't want to feel, but at the same time, helps , well at least it helped me, reach a point of understanding, that there IS NOTHING I CAN DO! NOTHING!

It removes the demonising aspect, and explains, actually, what is wrong with these people...and Psychopaths, and borderlines too.

Woopeefriggingdoo, why did I end up with a life that needed THAT understanding...Ah well.

It's less than a fiver at the moment on Amazon, and my therapist friends are all aware of it and rate it highly too.

hugglymugly · 07/12/2011 20:26

"However I still think deep down inside her there is a kernel of a rational person."

Like you, I've read the Stately Homes threads, and been able to see the comparisons between my life and those who have posted there. It is very difficult and painful to deal with the idea that even if there is a kernel of a rational person, appealing to that wouldn't work anyway. You are dealing with a very damaged person and it's not your job to heal her. It never is the job of a child to heal a parent.

It's interesting that she moved away into a remote area - that might be the nearest she could get to acknowledging that she can't cope with close personal relationships.

If she could be persuaded to move closer to you, her coping mechanism would change, and then you'd get the full force of her narcissism yet again but more frequently. That's not the solution to her problems; but would add unreasonably to yours.

Write the letter, because you are entitled to say what you feel. But don't post it to her - that never works. Instead, post the letter to the Stately Homes thread - you don't need to keep participating in that thread, sometimes it's kind of like a thread where you can just vent in privacy.

Eurostar · 07/12/2011 20:28

I find that the only way to get a narcissist to do anything is to appeal to their grandiosity while putting yourself down...i.e...you really need to move to X because it is such a special place and you are really too good for Y place and I really cannot manage without you close by because you are so good at everything I am bad at...etc. etc...

However - there is nothing genuine about any of this interraction and as someone said above - really you are so much better off with her further away.

Sorry that this is the case but if she is genuinely a narcissicist, she is not going to change at this stage in her life and suddenly be the Mum you never had. Your DH's family sound great at least and can it be some comfort to be a part of their family? I'm afraid to say that you need to try to give up the control you are trying to exert on your mother and brother - you believe it is in their best interests to move and it may well be but you are on a hiding to nothing. This is just like the control a codependent partner tries to exert on a partner who is drinking/gambling etc.. - it just does not work. Change has to come from the other party.

By the way - good description of the NPD personality in this video...
www.videojug.com/interview/narcissistic-personality-disorder

QueenofWhatever · 07/12/2011 20:29

I agree with all the above. I would seriously consider going no contact. You will never 'win', you will never be 'good enough'. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I've learnt all this the hard way. I've been NC from my Mum nearly 15 years and 2 years from my Dad and sister with the help of psychotherapy. You need to grieve the loss of parents who don't care for you the way you deserve.

benguiat · 08/12/2011 00:33

Thanks everyone for all your thoughts. It's horrible that so many of us have to go through this. Non-contact isn't really an option for me. I couldn't live with myself. I can also convince myself that she isn't that bad. My tactic is probably one of emotional detachment. But it's very hard at times.

AttilaTheMeerkat - yes the irrationality is truly breathtaking. Sometimes I think that it's myself who is mad. Luckily, now I have a partner, he can reassure me that it's my mother who is nuts. Before him I often felt like I was a lunatic.

beatenbyayellowteacup - sorry to hear about your experience with your letter writing and your mother using it against you. It gives me shivers as it's also the sort of thing my mother has done before. I've pleaded with her to move and said how sad it makes me that they're so far away. Then if I don't call her for a few days, the next time I speak to her she will throw it back in my face - implying that I'm lying and don't really care about her.

eurostar - good point about me trying to control them. I do try and be hands off, however out of all of us I probably have the most insight into what has gone wrong in our family. I have a compulsive urge to try and fix it. And feel that not trying is almost immoral. But I take your point that it's probably futile and not really my place to interfere.

The saddest thing is that my dad, while an enabler of her, is really a good egg. And would love to be closer to his children. As his age I don't think he feels he can leave her though. This is probably what makes me want to keep trying with them.

However as the consensus is that I should be grateful for the 5 hour distance between us I guess I shall try and reflect on this and see it as a blessing rather than a tragedy Smile

OP posts:
samhaircin · 08/12/2011 00:34

I don't think this would be the case. The fact that your mother behaves better in your house at the moment could be partly the novelty of it, and that she is a bit out of her comfort zone when she is there/ This would quickly change if she moved closer. I think if your mother moved closer to you she would be constantly popping around, would soon start to order you around, tell you what needed doing in your house, what you were doing wrong etc. And if she was close to you it would be more difficult to keep her at arms length.

I don't think my mother quite fits the narcissistic profile but she has some traits and is generally negative and controlling. She lives very close to me and it wrecks my head. I wish I was living further away from her but I am not able to move for the forseeable future. Because she is so close to me it means she knows a lot of what is going on in my life and can interfere more, and I am always under the "threat" of a visit. I have managed to distance her to some extent, and taking some steps to distance her more, but it would be easier I think if she lived futher away.

It could be like this all the time if she lived close to you. Imagine having that energy drain as a constant feature of your life?

samhaircin · 08/12/2011 00:37

oops cross posting there. I think you are making the right decision.

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