Sibling Problems

[TroubledLittleSister]

I hope this is the right section for this. I name changed a this will make me really identifiable in real life.

Not sure whether anyone can give me any advise but I simply need a good rant and maybe a bit of a cry and someone to talk to who?s not part of my family.
Sorry if it?s going to be long but I am trying to give as much background as possible.

Basically I have an older sister, who is in her mid thirties. I am in my twenties and still at university but have a long term partner and am really happy with my life in general. I am going to work as a teacher next year and DP and I are making long plans so it?s all going well. And I assume that is the problem.

Her life is not good, her last (D)P is now in prison and she is suffering from several mental health issues. I think some of them are coming from when we were children. Our parents divorced when I was very little but she was in her teens, and of course suffered much more. It also meant she took more responsibility for both of us on, so mum could work. I appreciate it must have been hard for her and have been grateful for this.

However, she always uses this to basically say that I ruined her life.

Our father passed away a few years ago and she was very upset. To be honest there were a lot of issues and I was never close to him, so I got over it easier. Although I was always wary of him and didn?t have my contact he saw me as the golden child and treated me much better than her, aways. This hurt her a lot and she has severe jealousy issues up to today.

In summer 2010 we had a huge fight in which she called me names a lot, said what an egoistic person I am, basically called me a cold nasty bitch and said she wished I had never been born as I ruined everything for her.

This fight was caused by me coming home for a few weeks over summer, and obviously trying to spend some time off with my mum. The jealousy issues with my sister however mean that she cannot stand my mother and me doing stuff by ourselves and feels abandoned, even when she is included. I tried to understand but her behaviour during this fight was so severe and hateful that I had issues to deal with her afterwards.

This was not the first serious discussion we had on these topics and she has ruined several holidays beforehand.

About 6 months later she sent me a letter trying to apologise for her behaviour. However the letter was full of ?buts?, e.g. I wouldn?t have behaved like this BUT you caused it?. So it wasn?t really an apology but I know she is sick and tried to be understanding. She said she didn?t remember anything she said and certainly didn?t mean it. 

I tried to be nice to her over Christmas but she was angry I didn?t discuss our issues with her over Christmas with other family around and said how mean I am to hear all the time, for example because I didn?t look at her at the dinner table (not on purpose on my parts but might have been the case, I don?t know). It just feels so petty to discuss on that level.

Forward a few months and mum and I plan a holiday and try to include my sister. We hoped that some time away might help pour issues and we might get time to bond. [hollow laughter].

We went on a trailer holiday and the weather was awful. So was the mood!

Second day in we needed to go to a nearby town and were stuck in traffic. Sister had a complete freak out with yelling because she couldn?t smoke in the car for the two hours we were stuck. She yelled at me what a mean cow I am, that I am not important and that she doesn?t want to listen to a baby. I say if it?s this important to her she should smoke but that obviously it?s not nice when stuck in a car! She refuses to smoke but keeps yelling and ruining the day for everyone.

We get home and the whole holiday continued like this. Her depressions mean she has insomnia, but she got angry if we didn?t get up at 6am as well etc. Everything needed to be planned around her 4 hour afternoon naps (she got angry if we tried to do something in the afternoon) and her smoking, as she can?t go two hours without. So everything was quite hard. 

She also started again with last years issues, what a bitch and cow I am, stone cold and only interested in my own person. I decided not to go to our father?s funeral for personal reasons and she said how awful I was for that. I asked her back then whether she?d like me to come and support her, but she refused and I decided for myself to not go. 

She said she hates me and would never look at me again if we weren?t sisters. She called me selfish for only coming home during holidays (I can?t due to jobs and studying otherwise). 
She also said she doesn?t have to listen to me as I am not an adult, will always be a baby in her eyes, called me a fly sticking to our mother like she is stinking shit and so on and so on. Basically a repeat of the year before, so much for not meaning it. 

There is just no talking to her. How can I talk to her when she starts to call me names and dismisses everything I say? How can we ever be in the same room if she hates me so deeply and wishes me away every second?

Worst part was that she also attacked mum and said that mum caused all her mental health issues. Our mother is the most supportive person every and is always there for her now adult children. My sister does not manage to keep her household in order and mum actually cleans her kitchen regularly and helps her with everything else. 

Mum is suffering from heart conditions as well as other medical problems and had serious problems over the course of the holiday. The stress my sister caused her was extremely physical. 

I understand that sister is sick and needs help, but she is refusing every form of therapy at the moment.

I am planning on going home over Christmas but I don?t know whether I really should. I know it is causing more issues than it should. Right now my sister is refusing to be in the same room as me. Mum basically wants to cancel Christmas completely, but even that is not good enough for my sister as I would still be in the same house as our mother, whereas she wouldn?t be. I have no other place to stay though and only see my mum and grandma once or twice a year, so don?t want to miss out. But I am not sure how to behave.


I feel much much better when I am not in contact with my sister at all as her constant aggression and hate is detrimental for my own mental health. But obviously as the whole family lives in the same town (but me) it is not really feasible to keep ignoring her.



If it would just be me I would never see her again. I know this makes me sound awful as she is sick but it has been like this for the last ten years and I just can?t handle it anymore. I get worried about spending time with other family members, as she will ruin it. She simply kicks off every time I am there, even if it?s only 2 weeks a year. She yells and swears, even in public.

During this holiday she got so angry and hateful that I didn't feel safe around her anymore. I was actually scared of her doing something to me , after all her life would be easier if I disappeared, as she has said several times.

And to be honest I am not sure I can forgive her all the things she said. It might sound petty to some but being told repeatedly what a bad person I am in her eyes and how much she hates me has left marks. And her verbal abuse is getting too much.

But my mother is obviously in the middle and I am not sure where to go from here.

Next year DP and I would like to do Christmas at our place but obviously that would mean mum would have to decide whether to see me or my sister.

I just can't carry all of this on anymore.

Not sure what happened there-what does &#8232 mean? It was supposed to be spaces, sorry if it has become unreadable now.

Writing it all down has been extremely therapeutic though!

What a very sad story, you have been through a lot and I really feel for you!

You have a right to a relationship with your very DM, please don't let your sister stop you from going home. It sounds like she has big issues whether you are there or not, so don't worry about making her worse.

Don't know what might help. A letter, saying what you've said here about your mother's health, begging her to get help? (may get binned, but maybe something will go in). A United front from you, Mum and Gran, refusing to be in the same room if she starts verbally abusing you?

Anyone else up, with any ideas?

TLS I'm sorry for your family. You sound very thoughtful and considerate and your sister sounds very damaged. Not sick, she is choosing to behave like this. I bet she doesn't do this at work/with her boss.

I had issues like this with my Ex's family. My MIL was a very damaged person and used to kick off and have tantrums. We tiptoed around her trying not to mention subjects that would set her off and picking up the pieces when people "upset her" and made her shout/cry/flounce.

For twenty years she behaved well with me and then one Christmas morning she erupted over the cooking and let rip at me. I was so shocked I walked out of her house and went for a walk. When I got back we had a strained Christmas meal with the DC and I never felt the same about her again. I decided I didn't have to accept this treatment and wouldn't visit her again. DH was horrified and begged me to give her another chance (to behave badly and spoil the day for the DC??). I let her know that if she EVER behaved like that again she wouldn't be welcome in my house. She became "afraid" of me but she never kicked off again.

No wonder exH was a bit screwed up! Come to think of it FIL did the same too.

Now how can that help you? You need to lay down the law about what is acceptable. You don't have to let someone treat you badly because you feel sorry for them. You owe her nothing for being born!
I second the letter saying you love her but not her behaviour as it upsets you and makes Mum ill. And reinforce that if she starts to act up you are leaving the room/house/county. Could Mum come and stay with you instead?

Hi troubled....what an awful situation. It's obvious that you have tried here & you sous very understanding to your sisters issues...but allowances can't keep being made for her. She needs to realise what her behaviour is doing to you all. I agree with 4am..a letter would be the best way to express how you have felt & her need for help. Only she can get the help. I know only too well what sibling trouble can be like. I have limited/non-existent contact with my 3 sisters...who treat/speak to me terribly. Very much like yourself...I couldn't mentally take being told what a horrible person I was...when that's not true at all. It's a difficult situation. I really hope you do what's best for you & have your mum for support.

Thank you very much for all your lovely messages. I was worried to come back this morning just to find everyone saying how mean I am because she is sick

4aminsomniac, what a very appropriate name!
I definitely want to go home, as I said I only get to see my family once or twice a year. And my 90 year old grandma has been really sick lately with brain bleeds and we think she is starting to get dementia, so I am not sure how long she will be around. She is the only family I have left next to my mum and my sister.

I am not sure a letter would help. She doesn't see any fault in herself. Even when I pointed out how silly some of her arguments are, she simply says that she feels that way and I don't have a right to an opinion.
Like her arguments that I only ever come when it suits me and only for fun holidays. As I am not close by (different country) of course I can't help as much as I would like to in every day situations, such as with grandma at the moment, but she argues that it's because I am a cold person who doesn't love anyone, not because of the situation. If she doesn't understand simple logistics like that, how am I to argue? She feels victimised and I think a letter would make this worse.

LittleGingerbreadHouse, thank you for sharing your story. I think I will try and put down some ground rules. Obviously being stuck in a trailer last time didn't help, no room to walk away. I try to argue when she is abusive but she doesn't want to hear it, she thinks we team up on her.

Mum can't come this year, she doesn't have any more days off unfortunately. Next year when I have a full time job though I would like her to come over instead, taking some stress way from her with the cooking and all.

wifey6, I know what you mean. It's hard to hear those things, even when you know they aren't true. I think she is looking for faults in me as her life is so screwed up mine can't possibly be great.
She tries to put me down by saying things like 'a bachelor degree is worth nothing and you are nothing in the end', even when I have worked so hard for it and know it's not true, it stings.

I hope you don't mind me asking, how do you deal with family occasions?

I hope you don't think I am not taking the letter idea on board, I am just not sure in how far it would work for her. She sees no faults in herself and thinks she is the victim. Not just in the family but also at work. She is unemployed now but doesn't see that it comes from her behaviour as well as getting criminal convictions by helping her boyfriend, who was having drug issues. He also ruined a lot of family time for us, but apparently we were always mean to him.

trouble....i have explained to my mum how uncomfortable & upset they make me feel & she understands completely...so we have agreed that she will come to mine boxing day instead of me going to her house where they will be on/off throughout the day. I'm lucky in the sense of having my own home so I can do separate family things. But they all went out for my teenage sisters birthday..my mum..teenage sister & my 2 older sisters & I was excluded. It did upset me as photos were all over Facebook within minutes!! But I saw my teenage sister the next day & we had a lovely time. I have 4 sisters & the older 3 are joined at the hip & brain...(not literally i might add)..if one has fallen out with you...they all follow...
I feel better for breaking away from them..
Although I'm not suggesting you do that.
I have learnt to have separate relationships with my family that doesn't include them... You can still have a great relationship with your family...whilst keeping your sister at arms length. My sisters put my life down as I am the only married one & they are not or divorced. But what we have (your degree..which is a massive achievement) my marriage...is nothing to be ashamed or sorry for. We make our own way in this world...your sister chose her path...as you have.

Thank you for sharing that.

I do have my own place with DP but as my family is abroad and I don't have a place to stay there but with family. And as I don't have much time off at the moment I like to fly over, even when it means not celebrating with DP, whom I see every day. Thins changes a bit though now that Dp and I are settling down more.

I do feel better when not in contact with her too. That birthday party sounds upsetting though, sorry you were not included

I guess I just have to do this one more year and then start inviting my family (or what's left of it, my mum) over to my place. Unfortunately due to distance it will either be a full blown visit or nothing at all, but I guess I will have to live with that.

I wonder why our siblings feel the need to put us down for our achievements. My sister was also really mean about my teaching job, as apparently I shouldn't be able to teach with the degree I am doing as it's not good enough. And obviously I shouldn't earn more than she gets in benefits for being unemployed. It's sad. I feel happy for other people achieving their goals, but maybe you can only do that when you are happy within yourself?

You are very welcome...I'm just sorry you are going through this. It can't be easy living so far away.
I think the expression..you can't truly love someone til you love yourself...applies here.
My sister is in sooo much debt & would begrudge me for buying my son a pair of new shoes. I think if someone is unhappy with their lives...they can't possibly be happy for anyone else. I am like you and can be happy for others.

I guess so.
It is somehow reassuring to know that I am not alone with my issues. Not that I am happy you are unhappy, just knowing that other people's siblings are toxic as well.

Talked to my mother earlier and my sister finally got a place in a therapy unit, but not until next spring. Not sure she is going to go as she usually refuses any help. But I'll keep my hopes up. Somehow I don't believe the things she said are all her depressions though but that it is just what she thinks, and I don't see things changing. I have become quite negative about it all.

Toxic is the exact word I use to describe my sisters...
That's good she has an offer for help..let's hope she goes & truly gets the help she needs. I felt very negative about my situation for weeks but slowly began to 're-build' myself & let myself live the life that my sisters had told me was 'boring'..'would never last'..
Those words really stung & once I saw it for what it was....jealousy...I decided that until they dealt with that...I couldn't be around them. I'm only living a 'normal' life.
A MNetter described it to be as sibling abuse...she was right. If I was you...I would step back & carry on living your life. She will need you & when she does...the ball is in your court. You have done nothing to deserve any of this.

UPDATE

I received so much help last year that I would like to get this thread back out. I figured that it's easier to talk on this thread as it gives a lot of background to the situation.

So after talking on here I went home for Christmas last year and it was horrible. I didn't want ice cream for dessert and that set my sister off. In the end she yelled at me in front of mum and grandma and stormed off, screaming in grandma's hallway so all her neighbours heard it. Very embarrassing for everyone and not healthy for either grandma or mum. She again told everyone what a bitch I am and how horrible mum is for standing up for me. She said mum would have to chose between spending time with her and me, which she of course refused to do.

We went out for dinner on boxing day and my sister freaked-she wasn't invited but mum had suggested to go over to hers (or out for dinner) the day after, basically to keep us separated after theChristmas day debacle. This was greeted with more yelling. It was absolutely horrendous.

Sister went to therapy this year but apparently it wasn't the right place for her. She left the clinic in May, conveniently during the two weeks that I spent at home. I refused to see her and this worked out fine, but of course it meant that our mother went over to her place all the time eating into my time at home. I know this is silly but it made me feel resentful, as after all these horrible horrible years I was looking forward to two quiet weeks and this made me feel on edge again. (I am unreasonable here though, aren't I?).

Since then I haven't spoken to her other than a card for her birthday and a thank you card once.

My mother, however, is putting on the pressure. I had my graduation this year and she kept saying how much my sister is hurt that she won't be able to come, how they can't talk about it at home, how she won't put pictures of me in gown up as it would be rubbing it in etc. I know she is trying to be thoughtful but it just adds the pressure somehow. She even suggested that I should invite my sister, which I refused. I just couldn't stand her ruining that milestone for me. While my mother didn't say I was horrible for this I know she felt upset I can't just give in.

Often when we talk now she mentions how she hopes we can mend bridges, how I should be nice and so on. How she hopes we will make up soon so it's becoming easy again.

Christmas is coming up (if we have to book flights we have to plan early) and I am not sure what to do.
Originally we had said that we wouldn't do anything this year at all. Mum had thought about going on holiday leaving us 'children' to sort ourselves out. I'd be fine with that and either stay at my place or go to the in laws. But grandma is still not well and mum wouldn't want to leave her alone. I don't see myself going home though and spending another holiday being abused. But should I really be excluded from family events because my sister hates me? It just doesn't seem right.

Next year is my mum's 60th birthday and she would like to have a birthday party. Again she has hinted that I should try and make up with sister until then, so the atmosphere is not too stained.

To be honest I am not sure what I am trying to achieve with this post. Just getting it all out of my system again I guess. I just don't know what to do anymore. My family would like me to just forgive and forget and try and move on. But after all of this I find it really hard. I really really tried after the first huge fight, went on holiday with sister, made conversation with her over Christmas even though I still felt hurt. And every single time she is starting again, saying how horrible I am, calling me names, abusing me verbally. Every single time, no matter how often I try. Every time I hope it will be different but it just never is. How long does this have to continue?

Like I said above my mother is suffering from all of this and she is sick anyway, so I don't want to add anyAnd I want her to be happy.
But I feel so sick and resentful of having to try again and again to make her happy, always ending with my holidays being ruined and feeling horrible. It makes me feel almost resentful-how ever bad my sister is behaving I am expected to try again and again to create a happy family. As if my happiness is being sacrificed for my mum's and grandma's.

I got a feeling this post makes me sound like a complete cow but this is how I am feeling. And I can't really talk to my family about this, although my DP is very supportive. Thanks for listening.

You don't sound like a cow! Not at all, not even a little bit

Well done for saying no more. You have already put up with far more than most people. You don't deserve to be treated like this

I also think your mum is being very unfair putting pressure on you like this, I can see how difficult it must be for her being stuck in the middle (and I guess it's easier in her eyes to get you to back down as you aren't so 'difficult') but I think you need to really spell out to her how you feel and what a horrible position she's putting you in

Stay strong and don't back down, whatever your sisters issues are in no way excuse her behaviour towards you

Thank you very much for your answers.

I am glad I at least don't sound too horrible. It feels horrible to say I just don't want anything to do with her anymore at this point.

Rhonda, my parents divorced due to my father's infidelity at that point. I do think he was psychologically abusing her, not physically. But abuse nevertheless. It's interesting to think about actually, she never really got away from him, she always tried to proof herself to him, accepted his awful behaviour even as an adult.
The thing is that she still doesn't see this. We are not allowed to say anything negative about him, ever. She does not think that he had a negative influence on her mental health.

But I see where you are coming from, it might have felt to her as if I was influential at that point, as if I needed protection.
And I am not going to lie, my childhood was much better than hers. My mother became less submissive, a happier person from what she has said. There was no father to abuse me, if I didn't want to see him I didn't have to, and I was allowed a lot more freedom.

But the thing is-nothing of this is my fault. The circumstances changed and I was lucky. I acknowledged that in front of her several times.
But I also worked for my happiness. I moved to a different country and worked as a nanny, which she told me was not a job and I was spoiled for doing so.
I then moved to another country to go to university, which according to her is worth nothing. So it's very difficult to talk to her. I know she didn't have as happy a childhood but she could have changed her life as an adult. But she has been making awful choices. And is so fatalistic that she doesn't think she had any influence on her life.

Maybe her thought process has been influenced by her childhood though? I don't know that much about mental health.

Sorry, that was very long, just writing down my thoughts.

I don't know what she wants, I really don't.

I have talked and tried to support my mum. I have told her to get involved in sister's therapy if she can, and take care of herself.

What do you mean by introspection?

maytheodds I feel quite resentful of my mother for putting on the pressure. It has been a busy and hard last 6 months, I finished university, finally, and have started my career as a teacher. Which meant moving away from DP, so we are now on opposite sides of the country and only see each other very little. So I just don't want to take the extra pressure somehow.
But I also want her to be happy.

OP, I'm annoyed on your behalf that your mum's asking you to build bridges and "be nice" to her - when it's her that's shouting you down at every opportunity. Is she asking your sister to "be nice" too?

In your shoes I'd be continuing to refuse to have anything to do with her until she can be in the same room as you without raising her voice. Well done on standing your ground about your graduation btw - she has been so unsupportive of your "worthless" course that her presence would have been odd to say the least.

This is very similar to my situation, I am the younger sister, but my older sister lives hours away. I live 20 minutes away from our Mum.

It all went pear shaped after mum and dad split. She was doing her own thing and I was still at home, awful time for all.

Fast forward to when I was 30, I moved an hour away from my sis and invited her over, but a mattress took precendence.

When we had our 1st kids there was 9 months between them I tried to be there with her because mine was born first. She rejected me.

3 years later our Dad died, suddenly, I was there, she wasn't, she still to this day has guilt issues over that.

During all this time my Mum would try and get us together and talk etc.

I have clinical depression and my sis was supposedly diagnosed with bipolar2.

Unfortunately knowing when my sister was coming down was a huge trigger for me..

Having spent 20 years trying to build bridges, I gave up last year, Itold my Mum exactly how my sis made me feel and that I wasn't going to try anymore, I have told her that my sis is the one that has to make the effort now. My son still goes and sees his cousin, but I don't have anything to do with them while she is there.

I am not jealous of the attention she gets because I see Mum more than she does.

Now unfortunately Mum has Motor Neurone disease and I have every faith in my sister resenting me for being here with Mum while she lives 4 hours away.

When she dies, will it bring us closer together? Nope, not unless she makes the effort.

Sometimes you have to remove toxic people, yes it might hurt your Mum, but if it starts affecting YOUR health, what then?

Thanks for clarifying that Rhonda.

From what I know my mum wasn't aware of how badly my father's treatment would effect my sister. It was all very subtle, he just came across as very strict. It wan't until afterwards that she realised how abusive he was. not just towards my sister but also herself. She left the marriage having been cheated on, lost friends due to his behaviour and so on.

She is aware we had different childhoods and she does say this again and again. But then a lot of this was out of her control. She started to earn more money as I became older which enabled us to do more.

She has been incredibly supportive. She still supports my sister financially now as well as with her every day life. She has been pressing for therapy for years but she can't force her if you know what I mean. I just feel that at some point my sister will have to take responsibility for herself. I mean she is 36-how long can this really go on? If she keeps rejecting all the help she can get then I think a lot of this is her fault. This has been going on for at least 10 years now. It makes me resent her so much.

Last time she apologised (with her weird letter that was very accusatory) she then pretended that nothing had happened when I came home. I asked her to give me some space and to please let us rebuild the relationship slowly. I didn't feel comfortable with her coming to touch me all the time when she had just told me how much she hated me. She told me I was unreasonable. Apparently I was stuck up and ridiculous to say that our relationship was damaged by her outbursts and she had nothing to work on at all. Either I accept her as she is or I should fuck off.

She has been systematically destroying the family we're having and has caused so much misery. Whenever anything goes against her she threatens to kill herself. And at times I have thought it might be better for all of us. How horrible is it that I have had these thoughts? I don't want to feel like this but I just can't stand what she is doing to us anymore.

It just feels like we have to pander to her all the time. I have recently moved to London and told my mum she and her friend could come and stay here to explore the place. Mum and friend would love this. But I was told that this is not possible as my sister would like to come see London as well and how would she feel if she were excluded from this. (And this is not about me hanging out with family, I was offering my mother and her friend a cheap weekend away).

I think mum likes to believe that my sister changes. She says so again and again. 'Your sister didn't mean what she said.' 'She has promised to be better this time.' 'She has talked to a therapist twice and seems much happier lately.' and so on. I guess it would be nice if this would be the case but over the last few years it just hasn't. I am assuming that my sister is better when I am not around but then kicks off as soon as she is not the centre of attention anymore.

But I feel that unless she acknowledges that this is her fault (not mine, as I wasn't asked to be born into this family, I'd rather be in a happy and content family) there is no way we can mend any bridges. And her deep hate for me-I am just not sure whether I can ever get over that. I mean honestly, she HATES me, and has said so very often.

caramel, is your sister coming a trigger for your depression? I find this interesting as this seems to be what is happening for my sister as well.
how has your mother reacted to all of this? How do you handle it when your sister comes home? I guess I am wondering where to go from here. I feel better not having my sister in my life. But this is damaging to the family. And I don't want to avoid going back to my home country forever and miss out on all the family parties.

I just don't really know where to go from here. I guess I could just pretend everything is fine whenever I go home and ignore her awful behaviour. But it makes me feel resentful.

Yes my sister was a trigger for my depression. The last family get together we had was a birthday party, my sis was there, but I ignored her and spoke to everyone else. I noticed at one point she was stood all on her own.

My Mum spent a lot of time trying to convince me that it would get better as her and my aunt didn't get on until later in life. She has accepted that I can't cope with my sis and she will now tell me when she's down so I don't go round there. The one time I did, mum came out of the house and stood talking on the drive, I was rather hurt by that.

If your Mum has any sense she will understand, nobody can make your sister any different except your sister. It's not your fault that she had the crap. Putting the blame anywhere doesn't help. You and your Mum need time together without your sister, trying to include her is clearly not working.

Regardless of your sisters mental health issues, you shouldn't tiptoe around her. She is playing on the guilt and it isn't healthy for anyone. Tell your Mum you want time on your own with her and tell your sister that she's ruining her own life by doing what she is doing and that if she carries on, she will be one lonely person in her old age.