Could you help me with this please?

[LoopyLoopsWoopDeWoops]

A couple of recent suicide related threads have made me think about something that happened to me years ago.

I was about 22, and worked in a building next to a bar, where I made a lot of friends. A waitress in the restaurant part was 16, and lovely, but quite vulnerable, and, well, young.

I met her ex one night when I was drinking. He was quite a bit older (about 25?) and clearly a bit of a loser. I knew a bit about their previous relationship, and overheard him talking to her. He was showing her his bandaged wrists, saying that he had tried to kill himself because of her splitting up with him and would actually do it unless she went out with him again.

Being drunk, outspoken and enraged, I took him outside for a good chat. I told him that it was not in the slightest bit fair or acceptable for him to blackmail a young girl like this, and that if he wanted to kill himself, he should do it without involving her. I didn't mean that he ought to kill himself, but that if he did, it wasn't her fault and she should not be made to think it was. I'm not explaining myself very well, but I think he got the message, and I don't think he thought I was telling him to do it but that she was too vulnerable to be blackmailed like that.

A few months later, I found out that he had killed himself.

Until now, I have refused to feel guilty for that conversation. His 16 year old ex girlfriend should not have been made to feel guilty about his choice, and I absolutely stand by that. But I can't deny that I don't feel awful that maybe I should have done something, or worse, tipped him over the edge by suggesting that he ought to, instead of holding her to ransom, just do it if he wanted to. Again, I hope I didn't actually say it like that... but who knows?

Anyway, this has been long enough. Just give me your thoughts (if you have made it this far). I don't need sympathy. And I can (possibly) deal with being told I was a complete bitch and effectively killed him. Or can I? :(

I think you said what you said with the best intentions and I'm sure that the outcome would have been the same with or without that conversation. I don't know what was said or this bloke but you were trying to protect a vunreble girl.

I hope you come to some sort of peace with all this

God, it certainly wasn't your fault! How often have you given advice on here, knowing it's right, in the full expectation that even if it is sensible, the OP will go their own sweet way regardless? This guy was clearly fixated on the idea of his own volition- please don't waste a second of your time feeling guilty. It is normal to feel sad for him, obviously- you wouldn't be you if you didn't. But you are in no way responsible.

Bad spelling and typing (am up feeding baby)

Thanks for answering. :)

I know it was with the best of intentions. I suppose I'm asking if ought to feel guilty. Because now I'm suddenly feeling guilty for not having felt guilty before If that makes any sense at all?!

Your instincts were spot on. Not Your Responsibility.

x posts. Thanks to you too BOF.

Sometimes I'm so damn sure of myself and my actions that I don't stop to criticise myself. Actually, I think I'm a bit of a bitch.

You didn't kill him. I doubt he was thinking about your conversation when he took his life.

It's a very sad situation, I can imagine that you might feel horrified or worry about your tiny involvement in what was to be a tragic end for the man. But I am sure you did not trigger his actions, of course you didn't.

Thank you :)

You are not to blame for what he did.

The vast majority of people who threaten suicide rarely go through with it.

The majority of people who do go through with it, successfully usually do so with no warning and no cry for help.

If my FIL had threatened to do this 4 years ago, I would have probably been very scathing with him (we had a great relationship and he was like a father to me).. and I would not for a moment have thought he seriously would do it.

Thank you so much Squeaky. I know we often have differing polar opinions, but I'm really glad you said this, I value your opinion a lot.

No worries..

and it would be a boring board if we all agreed on everything anyway. :)

I post to the post, not the poster, and try to never hold any grudges even if I have disagreed with that person on a previous thread...

Well, I try my best to anyway . Some people do bring out the worst in me....

Seriously though, I was really close to my FIL, we spent a lot of time together, and there were no warning signs, at all. I have spent many dark moments wondering if anything I said could have made a difference.... as a few days before it happened, he had been wittering on as he always did about how he had got some leaflet through the post about bowel cancer, and how his arthritis was playing up.. and I remember telling him to stop being such a hypochondriac and that at his age he was bound to get the odd ache or pain.... he was 67. But we had the sort of relationship where we would rib each other and tell each other to stop being so daft if you get what I mean...

He left no note, which we all found one of the hardest parts to deal with. There was no underlying reason that we could think of.. he had battled with bi-polar for most of his life, but it had been under control for quite a few years, and there really was nothing that we knew about or found out about after, which we could see as any trigger.... just a complete mystery and always will be unless one day we find some very well hidden note...

It's odd how we come to expect notes... as if an explanation is protocol. I wonder what the statistics are for note-leaving.

I hope you and DH have come to terms with it all a bit now. Must have been so hard. :(

It was very hard. Still is at times. My own mum died suddenly and very unexpectedly 6 months after as well, so it was a very shitty year in 2008. Oddly enough me and DH were only saying this evening how quickly the last almost 4 years have gone.. as MIL is rapidly declining with ill health now..

It changed us I think. My husband had to grow up almost overnight and the life we had thought we were planning for the next few years was completely changed for ever.

People say suicide is a selfish and cowardly act, and it can seem that way to those left behind. Anger was definately one of the emotions we all went through. But I dont suppose that the person doing it is thinking on the same rational level as anyone else at that time, and it must take a hell of a lot of bravery to do something so final, not knowing what lies beyond. It isnt something I have ever seriously contemplated thankfully. We all have dark moments, but inside me is an optimist that thinks no matter how shit it gets, I can get past this and one day it will be better. To not be able to see further than that must be a very very lonely and awful place to be in I imagine. :(

There seem to be so many suicide related threads on mn at the moment, a member of my family commited suicide this year and it is all so hard to read. I have opinions but I cant seem to get the words out. Just makes me cry.

(pulls self together)

A old friend of mine had a similar experience. This was years ago when we were out of touch and she told me about it last year.

I cant give too many details as it would be easily identifiable (certainly locally) but in a nutshell, she had been seeing this man and he was a nightmare. Controlling, possesive, needy and verged on violent occasionally, lots of "red flags". She split up with him and he kept calling her saying he was going to kill himself and she got in a right state. She would call the police or the paramedics, get his family round there, the whole works. Of course he hadnt done anything and she was beginning to look, and feel, unhinged. Then one night he did it again. She said that it was nothing to do with her (they had been finished a good while by then, over 6 months) and he should stop trying to blackmail her.

As I said I cant give details but he "commited suicide". I use "" because it was clear he didnt intend to kill himself, even the coroner agreed that while he did take his own life, he hadnt intended to actually die. he took something that would make you ill but would be unlikely to kill you. He made sure his home was easily accesible so that a person who was due to visit would be able to get in and find him, and he left several messages to friends and family telling them what he had done.

Sadly, the drug that shouldnt have killed him, did (cant say why, thats what makes it searchable). And because the person didnt call round and his friends, who it later transpired he had also threatened suicide with several times, thought it was just another threat, no one found him until he was dead. Had he been found it was unlikely he would have survived anyway, but that didnt make it any better.

That is a very long way of saying that you are not at fault here. My friend felt dreadful about it for years until a counsellor told her the true facts of suicide. Its true that anyone who really intends to do it, wont tell anyone incase they try to stop it.

Bogeyface, what a magnificent example of karmic justice in action! That is how your friend should think about it. If ever someone's death served them right it was that bloke.
Loopy, the same goes for the bloke in your experience. He might well have died sort of inadvertently while making an attention-seeking 'attempt', too. And at least he won't be able to manipulate and control any more vulnerable young women.

I knew a woman who pulled a similar stunt (with the same result). Row with the boyfriend, admittedly a serious one and she did have some MH problems, but she posted all over the internet that she was going to kill herself, took a moderate overdose and waited to be found. And oh dear, she had forgotten to check that, of the various panic-stricken friends on line there was someone who actually had her address... So it was a bit late when the paramedics got there. I considered nominating her for a Darwin Award but decided against it for the sake of her family and friends.

Frog, I'm so sorry, hope you're OK. :(

Thanks everyone. I feel a lot better this morning after the wine has left my system a bit of sleep.

Hi

You are not responsible for this.

I'm a mental health nurse and work with vulnerable, often suicidal patients. Things I've learnt over the years, and from other more experienced nurses and senior doctors is that if somebody wants to kill themselves, they will. Often people who threaten it repeatedly have no intention of carrying out their threat - it's a cry for help. Often, people who don't threaten it at all, and appear ok, carry it out successfully after careful planning. These people don't always want to die of course - they simply want the pain that is overwhelming for them to stop. Sometimes people threaten and finally do it.

Nobody is really responsible for what this man did. If anybody is, then it's perhaps his family, close friends, etc., who knew about his slashed wrists, and didn't persuade him to get help. Of course, they may have done all this - they may have called in psych teams, etc., and it didn't help him.

I've lost patients to suicide - after myself and the psych team had made a measured, controlled decision, after treatment and counselling and perhaps long stays in mental health unit, to discharge them into the community. It's not my fault, it's not the professionals fault.

This is certainly not your fault, so let it go. Your words, fuelled by drink, bravado or whatever, were well meant. He did what he did and that is tragic, but you didn't push him to it. We can always look back at our younger selves and squirm, but you have nothing to reproach yourself for.

Ultimately, it is only ever the person's choice to do it, and there's nothing you can do either way. You might your think your helpful words are making a difference, but they rarely are. If someone is at that place already, no amount of kindness or advising them to get help will affect the situation.
This sounds harsh I know, but feeling guilt or blame fror someone else's suicide is a wasted emotion.

I think whenever you hear of a sucicide of someone you know, most peoples first thought is why, then maybe was there anything you did or said that may have contributed to it. I think its quite normal especially if you know the person reasonably well.

A few yrs ago my friend committed sucicide at the tender age of 21, but shed had a terrible upbringing, in care too and was a prolific selfharmer, Id accompanied her to hospital on numerous occassions where they xray her arms etc and theyd fine various items in them, one time I clearly remember shed had 71 bits of metal/pins etc in both her arms .

A mutual friend had said the other friend would like to meet up, but Id told the mutual friend I wasnt able to because I had such alot on my plate already I wasnt able to take more on (not long had baby, dp was out of work, too much going on myself at that point). A few weeks later she was admitted to hospital with cuts etc, they discharged her, then she set fire to herself just outside the main entrance to the hospital. she went into cadiac arrest and her organs failed.

The thought that id not wanted to go and see her weeks before played on my mind alot when it happened, but she had been massively unhappy for years and I felt relief that actually the agony was all over for her.

The mum of a friend of mine committed suicide two years ago.

She was determined; 4 serious attempts with pills and then finally she jumped under a train.

Counselling didn't help her. Anti-depressants did nothing. Her family were devastated and still ask if they could have done something, but truth is - they couldn't.

I firmly believe that if a person makes up their mind to do something, there is nothing that can be done and conversely, that you cannot make someone do something they really don't want to do.

This was not your fault. If anything, you should be applauded for trying to ensure that the mans misery didn't make some one else feel eternally guilty.

I don't think we can ever know really what goes on in the mind of someone who commits suicide. And I don't think much of what we do/don't do has any bearing on it.

I have known several people who committed suicide and they were all on the whole "fairly happy, bubbly people". People you would never imagine doing something like that