How do we keep them safe?

[CottonWoolWrap]

Namechanged. Was awake worrying last night about my DD and potential future children. I think the worry has developed from the threads on abuse and reading responses about trusting instinct, how devious and manipulative and charming paedophiles can be, and the fact that most abuse occurs within the family.

I recently found out my best friend from ages 5-12 was abused by her father. This was not a surprise, I had long suspected something wasn't right (only since becoming an adult though) and as a child all I knew was I just did not want to be around him and he creeped me out. There was a 'dodgy' incident when i was on holiday with my friend and her parents, and although nothing actually happened (my friends mother came into the room), it's always played on my mind and with the eyes of an adult looking back I wish I had realised what was happening to my friend. We stopped being friends because she became very withdrawn in early teens and I made a new friendship group :( She was very depressed as a teenager and lives a fairly reclusive life now. I think about her a lot and I feel very guilty I didn't help her.

I spoke to my mum about this recently and she obviously feels terrible about the fact that I was potentially in harms way, although there was no way she could have known. But it's got me thinking.

There are certain individuals that I feel uncomfortable about, without any basis and any reason. They are close family members. I do not feel comfortable about my DD being around them on their own, but I do realise I am probably being ridiculous and it's fine. I also feel very bad about the fact I have these doubts in my mind and obviously haven't been able to voice them to anyone. But I can't place a finger on my fears. I just want to protect her, but how do you do that when you just don't know if there is any basis for your doubts? I am confused.

I do NOT subscribe to the paedo in every bush theory at all. But I do realise that abuse within families is sadly not that uncommon (is the figure 1 in 4?).

I know this is a bit jumbled, and I just want to hear from other people really. What can you do to keep your children safe? Trust instinct? Never let them stay anywhere overnight without you? Am I being ridiculous?

I worry about this too, not about particular people but the whole issue.When I was a teenager I was appalled to find out how many of my friends were suffering abuse. All told me in very very intimate confidential settings and all made me swear not to tell a soul. I didn't. :( I didn't know any better but that is no excuse.

I hope to have a relationship with my girls where they feel that they can tell me everything that is happening in their lives. I hope to be able to honour and develop their sense of what is ok and what is not and not insist that things are "fine, don't be silly" for my own convenience. (The trouble is sometimes things are fine, and you have to go to work or whatever, but how can you insist that the child go to a childminder that they momentarily don't like because she made them put their rainhats on or something, while honour their sense that sometimes there are good reasons not to like someone?)

REally I have no idea. I look forward to some sensible advice on this thread!

Instinct is the most powerful and amazing thing we possess.

ALWAYS trust your instinct. You do not have to explain, your instincts are there for a reason, and you should listen to them. You should act on them, quietly, without drama, without explanation.

The damage that is done by sexually abusing children can last for generations...and probably goes back for generations too.

Well that's what I think gobby - but it is so difficult to do quietly and without drama. I had an amazing relationships with my grandparents and used to love going there to stay without my parents.
One of the people who I have the feelings of uneasiness about it my mums partner. I can't say this to her. There have been ways of getting around it so far, however there will come a point in the future where I will explicitly have to say no. It's so hard. I know my DH has similar misgivings, though neither of us has actually come out and said it. This backs up my feelings. But I love my mum with all my heart and want her and DD to have a great relationship.

This is what I mean by it being so hard. I can't say anything, because I have absolutely no basis for thinking this way at all, other than a gut feeling...

If you're having doubts about one specific person (or more than one but not "people generally" IYSWIM?) then I think you have to act on it and not let your child stay overnight there until they are of an age where you can explain to them about what's ok and what isn't, and feel reasonably confident that they'll be able to tell you about anything they feel uncomfortable about.

You don't need anything specific to happen to justify it, some people do just "creep you out" without you being able to say why, and you should generally pay attention to that. Though you need to think honestly if there are reasons why you dislike a person which are unfair.

By about 4 or 5 you can talk to children about "looking after their body" and "not having to let people touch them" and "good secrets/bad secrets" and stuff like that so that the risk of them putting up with situations is much reduced. They don't need to know what you're protecting them against, but if they know they can say "I don't like it when X kisses me" and you'll back them up (even if its their whiskery great aunt and no actual threat) then they are much less likely to be pressured/manipulated into a bad situation.

Yes you are right AMIS, I will definitely teach DD all about looking after themselves and try and explain the 'spidey-sense' feeling of instinct. She is too young to understand right now (3.1) but also young enough that I don't have to let her out of my sight if I don't want, IYSWIM?

I suppose that is all we can do isn't it? I am just so aware of the damage that can be done, and scaring myself about it. I feel awful for feeling this way about my mum's partner, and I'm not doing it to be malicious. My rational self is telling me it's fine but I think if I found out they were alone together for a long time I would feel panicky. The other males in my family I wouldn't feel like that at all.

It's like on another thread a posters mother (upon finding out about the abuse) said that she had a feeling something wasn't right. I just can't let that also apply to me.

Argh confusing, especially with Christmas coming up.

I have posted a while ago under a different name about DM's OH btw and more specifically why I feel uneasy. There was a mixed view about whether he should be a worry or not.

One really important thing you can do is to let your children say no. So when their whiskery great aunt (who is absolutely no threat) says "come and give Aunty a kiss" and your DD says no, you back her up and don't make DD kiss the aunt. You might have to come up with a jokey way to not offend great aunt, but you need to show your children that they can say no to something that makes them feel uncomfy. "No, I don't want a kiss." "No, I don't want to sit on your knee." "No, I don't want to be tickled." That way you empower your children to say no to anything happening in the first place.

I think AMumInScotland covers it well in her last paragraph. A few months ago one of my stepsons didn't want to kiss me goodnight. DP started to tell him not to be silly but I cut him off, looked the kid in the eyes and said he NEVER has to hug or kiss anyone if he doesn't want to. DP quickly caught on and supported what I was saying.

I'm glad it was me and not his Granny or someone who might have been upset and that it gave a natural opportunity to say something I think kids need telling (in a non scary way).

Yes, I totally support that approach. People do take it very personally though - but I remember as a child having to hug people I really didn't want to (not for anything suspect, but because they would hug too tightly/smelled of smoke etc) and you just feel like you have no control and have to do as you are told. I will talk to DH as well and make sure we adopt this approach.

Instinct. You don't need evidence, just that Feeling. Never ignore it.
I keep saying to DD that she needs to listen to her tummy voice...if her tummy voice says don't sit on so-and-so's knee etc, then don't - no matter what anyone else says.

As someone who was abused as a child (and who knew their was something to fear from the person) I would say that the most important thing you can do to protect your children is to instil confidence that their word will be taken by you... I knew instinctively that I would be accused of lying by my mother, my grandmother always declared that she would go to prisons if anyone touched one of us... I never spoke a word of it for many years.

You have to put it in perspective, it's easy to run away with it, my DD has limited contact with men in general and you can control that when they are small, as as gets older I intend that she have the impression that I am level headed and strong (so that she wouldn't be too scared to tell me something for fear or losing me) I will teach her about harmful secrets. Bit most of all I will make sure that there is no-one in her life that I even have the remotest feeling about.

However, I had reason to be over cautious. In the end you have to have faith and trust in people, male and female, to be healthy around your child and the vast majority of people are luckily.

I was in the same position as antsypants - I knew I wouldn't be believed.

All the advice given here is good, IMO.

Can you link to the thread where you talked about your mum's partner, please?

As the others have said above, instinct is a very powerful thing - ignore it at your (and your children's) peril.

I, too, remember having to kiss people I didn't want to kiss when I was a child - god, it was horrible. Why don't people realise that small children might not want to kiss them?

OP, are you in contact with your friend who was abused? What an awful situation for her and how very sad it's affected her so badly to this day. Did she tell you about the abuse or did someone else?

The problem with some abusers is that no-one can tell.
There aren't any clues to pick up on.

I think we just have to teach children how to stay safe, to help them be resilient, to have high self-esteem and to value themselves. Abusers (not just paedophiles, but abusives controlling adults too) tend to go for people at the edges, those who have low self-worth, who are more needy. Obviously not always.

I speak as someone who was 'the golden child' who was then abused by her father. As well as the usual difficulties overcoming abuse, I have to deal with the anguish thatcomes from having utterly adored him prior to that.

That sounds absolutely awful, BrilliantDisguise.

I think an astute adult will often pick up on tiny clues that many others wouldn't, but I'm sure there are men (and women, I assume) who are so practised in their behaviour that they rarely, if ever, give any sign at all that they are not who they pretend to be.

The thing is then, when you pick up the tiniest clue, other people think you're mad, if the person has been a great actor so far.

It's a bloody minefield. It would be dreadful to castigate someone on the basis of a tiny clue if they are actually completely innocent, and dreadful too not to take note of the clue.

This is going to come out all garbled so bear with me.

I come from a family where I was never taught that I had autonomy over my body. When I was about 6 a friend of my mother's offered to bathe me while he bathed his daughter (they were staying in our house) and I objected as I felt it was creepy. I had better instincts that my bloody mother. She insisted, making out that I was being a pain. He abused me. That would never have happened if my mother wasn't such a fucking idiot. He knew from then that my mother wasn't going to stand up for me in any way and he abused me further at later stages.

A parent who is aware, who teaches their child that they can object to being touched and will be listened to is going a huge way towards protecting their children IMO. In my family toddlers are picked off their feet and forced wriggling to be cuddled and kissed. It gives me shivers looking at it because it is this sense that a child is just an object that can be passed around that breeds a situation where a child doesn't know they can refuse to be touched. When DS is older and more aware he will be taught to say no to any unwanted touching (no matter how well intentioned) and my parents will be forced to listen to him.

Incidentally, it is always commented on in my family how much my little cousins love me and gravitate towards me. I do tend to be like the pied piper of Hamlin at family gatherings, with strings of toddlers behind me (I have a large extended family). The reason for that is that I engage with children on their terms and I treat them with a little respect, something the rest of the family has no concept of.

It is right that there are people who no-one would ever suspect to have damaged children doing it right this minute. All you can do is invest time in your children and make them feel as secure and confident as possible.

However, I sometimes think because of my past experiences I have a finer instinct for feeling threatened, especially in a sexual manner, it's bode well for me since I acknowledged it, and from what I understand it is similar to many abuse victims.

The OP was not abused, but seemed to have understood what was happening on a level that she was incapable of understanding at the time... What you need to reassure yourself with is the knowledge that your instincts have served you well before now and continue to trust them after