fair division of household tasks

[WineOhWhy]

In a 2 parent household if you both work, is your view that household tasks should be spread equally (assuming similar working hours) or if one works longer hours than the other, that the total hours of each person spent at work and household tasks taken together shold be roughly the same, or do you think any of the following are also relevant:-

1. the fact that one person's job is much more stressful or tiring (per hour worked)
2. differences in pay
3. fact that one person could request flexible working (which could still be financially viable) but chooses not to
4. fact that one person would be happy to use part of household income towards a cleaner (and budget would stretch to this), but other person does not want to.

[nb I have left childcare out of the debate above becuase that does not seem to cause the same arguments as household chores, but I guess considerations would be the same]

Are you writing an article WineOhWhy?

[hhmm]

No, having a debate with DH! We are both feeling we are shouldering more than our fair share , so I thought i would seek the input of the MN jury to help work out which of us is looking at it in the wrong way. Prepared to accept it might be me! All 4 of the facts above are potentially relevant in our circs (one has a more stressful job, one does not want to get a cleaner etc). I have tried to avoid explaining which of us has the more stressful job etc, so that the gender thing does not colour the responses.

If you both work and can afford a cleaner then I think that's the best option. Time together is more important than money imo.

i balked at the difference in earning point. wtf do you mean by that?

Well, no 2 (difference in pay) is certainly not relevant.

And is one of you saying you don't want to pay for a cleaner, but that the other one can do the cleaning instead? I'd struggle with that one I think.

Not sure how the flexible working thing makes a difference. You mean reduced hours, or just shift-work?

Yes, question is whether if one contributes more financially, other should contribute more in different way. We both know really that is not reasonable, but thought I woudl chuck it in (as it is sort of related to the fact that one job is more stressful/tiring).

Budget would stretch to cleaner. One does not want a cleaner - kind of an inverse snobbery thing. If one refuses cleaner, why should the other spend precious weekend time on cleaning when they are perfectly happy to pay cleaner? Or pay a cleaner to do half the cleaning, and one who does not want cleaner does the other half?

Flexible working - say one doing 4 days a week and using the "extra" day to catch up on household chores, so weekend time is free for both. Manageable financially, unlikely to have much impact on future career prospects, although who knows really. Nice for the DC too (to be fair DC are at school and we rarely argue over childcare responsibilities - take it in turns to take a day off if they are sick etc).

When I lived with the kids dad he was a SAHD he done everything even cookin my dinner, I had a 5 min commute and worked 9 to 5 then.

He done everything during the week and I done everything at the weekends.

I also put the kids to bed as as I got in he went out.

When I married my husband he done nothing and I done it all whilst working full time, it was my house and they were my kids.

Re cleaner - you should pay for one from the household budget. If one of you wants to take the pay and do the cleaning themself on top of their regular 50% of the chores then that's fine.

Well my job is more stressful & tiring. I also earn a lot less and i guess you could say i have 'flexible working' in that i do full time hours in three days per week.

However none of these are relevant to our current division of labour. DH hates cleaning & is crap at it, so he pays for a cleaner once a fortnight. He also does all the washing & half the shopping. I do an intermittent biweekly clean & everything else.

I feel quite strongly about DH doing his fair share so we found this solution. I actually don't mind house chores but do mind feeling like a skivvy. DH did try & argue point No.3 in his favour but i was having none of it!

We find it best to have areas of responsibility rather than set hours. That way we can make sure that what we do fits in with our other commitments and also see a job through completely and make sure nothing slips through the net (eg I do all the food buying and most cooking, DH does laundry). It seems reasonably fairly distributed.

Re the cleaner, that is something that needs to be negotiated. I'd go for it for sure. Definitely helps the smooth running of this house.

Income irrelevant. Stress of job, well, I'm not sure about that one. Is the argument that you need more doing nothing time? I'd say that that's where the allocation of responsibilty comes. I like cooking, so not as stressful for me as DH.

Well have cleaner for 50% of the time? Fairest to divide down the middle but take preferences into account as well as fair division of the lousy jobs.

I would honestly say that if you can afford a cleaner, give someone the much needed business. It does not turn you into a screeching dust-finger-wiper "my little woman who does" kind of character overnight.

I think the financial side is a bit irrelevant although the stress of the job should get cut a bit of slack (people do cope with stress very differently though).

If you start valuing each other by your earning power you are on a slippery slope.

Madonna, I like your approach. On the stress of jobs, yes one carries much more responsibility and is more stressful/ tiring, so for the same hours worked, one comes home feeling more knackered than the other (and both would acknowledge this to be fair) - so does that one get a bit more downtime.
I think we partially do what you do, in that i do most of the cooking (DH hates it) and shopping (admittedly mainly online). DH does more of the laundry and cleaning type tasks currently and would argue that they need to be shared more fairly as being a biit more "skivvy" like (sorry, not a great word but you know what I mean). Maybe instead of counting the hours I need to get him to focus on the fact that he would hate to do the cooking (he does not really count it as a chore for me as I enjoy it) and although I can do the shopping on line very quickly, it woudl take him much much longer (not just the ordering but applying thought to what it needed).

See, that's the problem isn't it? The "you enjoy it so it's not a chore" thing. Things are a chore if you do it all, and have to do it all, every time it needs doing, whether you feel like it or not.

The "skivvy" thing, or rather the thing we both hate doing whatever, is the argument for a cleaner IMO. The cleaner does the jobs in which we find no pleasure at all. The laundry can be done in quick bursts, and DH gets to mend things, make things, service things (which is his equivalent to cooking - he doesn't mind it). I do the cooking (although he does it sometimes too - my job is certainly more stressful and he takes over everything when I am up to my eyes and shopping (online like you, which makes it pretty easy).

He sorts out school paperwork and kit because he takes them to school. I sort out clubs and music lessons because I pick them up.

You need to open negotiations I reckon!

Both partners should get the same amount of leisure time, that's the best way of sorting out whether the division of labour is fair or not. And if the household budget can stretch to a cleaner, the one who objects is only entitled to refuse to have a cleaner if that person does the extra housework - it's not fair to refuse to have a cleaner on the grounds that your partner can do the extra housework. That's demonstrating that you consider your partner your servant.

I see that a lot on MN, but I don't think it's that simple. Because sometimes I am in the mood for cooking as recreation, and sometimes I'm not. The lines are blurred for quite a lot of activities, especially when there is very little time for individual recreation anyway (DH and I both work every evening after the children are in bed). And what about leisure with children in tow?

There are a lot of housework conflicts aren't there. Personally I don't think it makes a difference who works what hours, who gets paid what, who has a stressful job, etc.

Housework & childcare should be shared equally when you are available. So that means you are both busy getting on with something whether it's in the house or out at work from the hours of (usually) around 8am-6pm.

From end of working day til bedtime you share the housework. During the night you share the childcare if needed. Before work you share whatever needs doing. Weekends you share the load.

I don't understand how there can be so many couples who can't agree on this. You work together, as a team, equally, supporting each other, maintaining your property, building relationships with your children, being a family.

It's not one person's responsibility to 'nag' the other or for either to complain. Get on with it, it's just stuff that needs doing. And if you stop arguing about it and both get it done together you will have lots more time to spend doing fun stuff with each other. We even get the kids involved in our house - 1 boy, 1 girl. We pull together. And hopefully they will grow up to learn that it's not a big deal. It's just life.

If my DH didn't share this opinion I wouldn't have married him. I wouldn't want to spend my life squabbling over petty issues and trying to 'outdo' each other on who has the most stressful life!

Marking to read later. V similar to my situation.

Definitely get someone to help with the cleaning, especially if you can point to particular things that neither of you likes doing. As Mammonite says, it's a perfectly normal thing to do and no one will think you're up yourselves - it's just the sensible thing to do when you both work.

Very struck by everyone agreeing that the amount of money each makes is immaterial. Speaking as the one who earns significantly less, I can't stop myself from thinking that it DOES make a difference, which probably explains why my own domestic situation is dominated by the kind of "squabbling over petty issues" that ScareyFairenuff has done such a good job of avoiding! Basically, our house and lifestyle is made possible by the fact my OH has a high-pressure job that pays much more than mine. So part of me thinks in a way I have to pick up more stuff around the house because I get home earlier and don't get interrupted by manic phone calls on the weekend. Of course the other part of me gets totally hacked off at being taken for granted as a glorified skivvy - ok not even that glorified! So without wishing to hijack OP's thread - could somebody tell me why I'm being a muppet about this..?

And good luck with sorting out a plan that works for you WineOhWhy - sounds like you're already further down that road than a lot of us :)

I agree with SGB, the fairest way to work it out, is to ensure that you have the same amount of leisure time.

Leisure time with children in tow is not leisure time imo, some of it is, but some of it is parenting. Parenting ain't leisure.

I'm reading What Mothers Do atm and she points out that when a mother of a young toddler comes out of the supermarket feeling pissed off that it's taken her 2 and a half hours to do the shopping which used to take 40 minutes, that's because most of the time she hasn't actually been shopping, she's been parenting.

So I'd be careful about counting leisure with DC's as 100% leisure. It's not. The tricky bit, is estimating how much is. Would you do it if the kids weren't there? HAve you been able to do everything you wanted to? Etc.

How much domestic labour someone does in the house and how much leisure time they get, when there are 2 able bodied adults there, is not a petty issue. It goes to the heart of how much respect 2 people who live together, have for each other.

If you think that your partner is there to pick your shit up when you're physically capable of picking it up yourself, you've got very little respect for him/ her.

If you think you're entitled to more rest and leisure than your DP, you don't respect him/ her.

This is not petty. Really it isn't.