grew up in emotionally abusive family. now i don't know how to judge what is ok in a relationship...don't trust my feelings.

[multicolourcat]

I've have grown up in an emotionally abusive family. My father is cruel to my mother, but not always, he can be lovely, which is why she has stayed. now aged 70 she is finally thinking of leaving him. he has always been mean to her, 'picking' at her and whay she does.

I now realise that I have been affected by them. I don't know what is 'normal' or 'acceptable' in a relationship. I am determined not to be treated badly, but i think maybe i am too determined and look for signs of being treated badly, when maybe i am being treated normally, because maybe in normal relationships people argue, fight, are unkind etc.

but i just don't know. I wonder about my present relationship and i wonder if i am being treated badly because we have had an argument and he thinks my feelings are irrational and struggles to comfort me when I am upset.

I have no benchmark for knowing what a relationship should be like. I am not daft, and i realise certain things, but when it comes to this emotional side I am so confused. I feel like i am going mad becuase half of the time I think my partner is lovely and the other hald i am suspicious of his actions. I REALLY can't trust my instinct, or my gut feeling - they honestly are not reliable. I am very over emotional and swing high and low and i just don't know which of my feelings are real.

We have a little baby, 6MO and I am panicking about the family I am putting her into. I am desperate not to repeat what I was put through.

Well done for having the awareness to realise that you do not have healthy benchmarks for relationships, and for being determined to not pass on your family issues to the next generation -- that's huge!

You won't be able to retune your reactions to social interactions and relationships overnight; it will take time, but it's eminently doable. The key thing you will need to do is find your own centre; your own confidence in who you are, what you deserve, and what you can accept and not accept; the limits of where you end and others begin. Your interactions with others including your daughter and your partner will all flow from there.

The best is to have face-to-face therapy with a counsellor you feel comfortable with. Alongside that, there is plenty of reading you can do: first to understand what went on in your family, what triggered your parents and why, and that it was never your fault or within your control. Then to deepen your understanding of yourself, and identifying those behaviours and reactions of your own that you want to alter.

Here are a few reading recommendations that have helped me; maybe some will seem useful to you:

• Pete Walker
• catching personality disorder "fleas"
• out of the FOG
• children of the self-absorbed
• toxic parents
• reclaiming your inner child

Good luck!

Thanks pumpkin do you have experience of this? What kind of counselling would you recommend? And money is a bit tight at the moment, so if i was to get one of these books above which would you suggest? Thanks again.

Can relate to everything you say, especially the bit about not trusting your gut feelings with your DH.

I can't give much advice really but wholeheartedly agree with what Itsmeandmypumpkinnow said. If you just started on one of her suggestions you might feel a sense of control over your situation which might reduce your anxiety.

May I suggest paying attention to the feelings you are sure of? I mean quite trivial things, like when you are choosing something in the supermarket, what do you feel/say to yourself/see that tells you you have chosen that thing? This will give you information on how your gut feelings work in a context outside the family dynamic etc.

No I am not mad - I do NLP!

I went on a bit of an intensive mission to understand everything about abuse when I left my abusive stbxh, multicolourcat, so I did it all at once: therapy, reading to understand my parents, to understand my ex, to understand me... There are plenty of books out there specifically about parenting, too.

The first three links I gave are websites, so that's completely free. There are plenty more websites out there: do a google search for "adult children of abuse" or "dysfunctional families" and you'll find loads, some of which may suit you. Then I'd suggest you click around Amazon: the links I gave you will lead to other books on a related topic, and most self-help books have the "look inside" function, so you can see if the table of contents and style of the book respond to your needs before you choose which one(s) to buy.

I had a mixture of therapy: from my local abused women's shelter, which was free, and from a therapist who combines classic talk therapy with CBT. I also do the free CBT moodgym on-line. But the moodgym won't start on you on a path of self-exploration and releasing of your feelings from childhood the way talk therapy would: see what you can get on the NHS from your GP.

Thanks pumpkin - i've checked over these sites and books and they seem to be focused on children/adults who have received the abuse - Am i correct in thinking this, or not? My father has never really directed the abuse at me, for some reason I have always been able to stand up to him (consequently we have a very firey relationship), it has been my mother who he can be nasty to, but I am affected because I have not 'seen' a healthy relationship to recreate now that I have my own family, and now I see myself struggling to see what is right/wrong and un/acceptable.

noseinabook very interested in NLP...thank you for your idea. Any others?

nombre Glad you can relate. I think i read another posting from you about selfconfidence etc...(sorry if it was not you). I also completely relate to what you were saying. Have you had a similar upbringing?

Yes I relate to a lot in your post including the family dynamics. Cruel father (Not just when drunk). I too stood up to my hardly-ever-lovely father but he continued to badmouth me behind my back and limit my ability to have a relationship with my mother.

You say the abuse was not directed at you but how did your mother's abuse affect her and how did that affect you?. Looking back I can see that my mother was depressed and distracted often. Also we were far more concerned with protecting her than we should have been at such an early age.

(However, I do consider my mother to have enabled my father to continue his abuse of us and herself by never ever referring to it or confronting it in any way. It was the white elephant in our household)

Exactly. I have always looked out for my mum from a very early age. cuddling her lots when i was a little girl and trying to make her happy. My father is a strange man, he is not actually a horrid person, he is lovely in fact and has been a great father in so many ways, but he comes from a VERY dysfunctional background and consequently is very messed up himself. He really does have a lovely side to him, and yes, i do believe he has emotionally abused us, but he has no understanding of this at all. I think he could be on the autistic spectrum to be honest. I do blame my mother to a certain degree for not standing up for herself and letting me stand up for her when I was just a child, but again, all of this is within an actually pretty stable homelife...in a way. I did suffer from depression as a teenager and think it came down to trying to take on the world too much and not being able to really help. We are still all very close and all love each other immesely, but I am certain that what my father has put us through is emotional abuse even though it has not destroyed everything.

they seem to be focused on children/adults who have received the abuse - Am i correct in thinking this, or not? My father has never really directed the abuse at me, for some reason I have always been able to stand up to him (consequently we have a very firey relationship), it has been my mother who he can be nasty to, but I am affected because I have not 'seen' a healthy relationship to recreate now

I believe that that is not the only way in which you have been affected. As you say yourself:

I have always looked out for my mum from a very early age. cuddling her lots when i was a little girl and trying to make her happy. [...] I do blame my mother to a certain degree for not standing up for herself and letting me stand up for her when I was just a child, but again, all of this is within an actually pretty stable homelife...in a way. I did suffer from depression as a teenager and think it came down to trying to take on the world too much and not being able to really help.

The "parentified child" is one of the several models of abuse that these books deal with. You may not have been hit by your father, but you were put in a position that stifled your developing self by your mother. That too, and not just the unhealthy relationship model, is something that the books and sites I linked to above can help you unravel.

By all means focus on what makes healthy romantic relationships first if that's your priority. But as I said above, all your relationships will flow from how you feel about yourself inside, and working on the gaps in your childhood is the route to centering your healthy Self.

I have read Toxic parents and tho I found my dad there I found it hard to see my mum. I have read parts of Children of the Self Absorbed Here and am planning to read more. I think self absorbed more describes my mum.

cat I believe that my father has AS, and that I do too, it manifests differently in women. I too find it very hard to judge relationships, and friendships, and that's one of the reasons I think I have AS - the other is, both my parents were and are naive, so I had no role models. I am still naive myself!

Glad you're interested in NLP, it has helped me understand myself and others, so now I don't try to fix myself so much, I find work-arounds.

Another NLP thing you could do is to find out how you store your parents in your head - in particular, what size are they and how far away. Then you can gently change that, and then put it back to how it was before you change it.

You might want to be somewhere you feel safe and grounded to do this. That will keep you safe. If you think I'm mad for talking about pictures in your head, try drawing the family and do it that way.

Remember to put it back the way you found it! If your inner self thinks it might be better to change it, it will do it all by itself...

Therapy.

I think it is one of the things that can make a big change to how you view things. At least it has for me. I grew up with emotionally neglectful parents rather than abusive ones. It had/has a huge effect on me. Starting with low-self esteem, recurrent long-term depression and ending up being in an abusive relationship without realising it.
I spent my childhood trying not to upset my parents, constantly placating them and trying to impress them at the same time. My mother (who I love) would 'sulk' and I ran around trying to get her to come round. I accepted criticism and blame all the time.
I continued to do this as an adult. I had no comprehension as to what my own 'needs' were, I was only aware of other peoples opinions of me.
It's very easy to manipulate someone that thinks like this. When my partner was abusive all I could think of was how to get him to come round and be 'nice' again. I accepted everything he said about me as the truth - that I was 'mental' (PND), selfish, unloving (ie not having enough sex), needy, demanding, that I couldn't cope on my own.
I was hyper-aware of every little change in his demeanour - a sigh, putting a cup down loudly, closing a door roughly - I could tell exactly what his mood was from the minutest of clues (I was always right). I felt like I was walking on eggshells- on constant alert for the beginnings of a row.
Yet, I had no clue as to how 'I' felt. I couldn't have told you whether I was happy or unhappy, if I was stressed or relaxed. These things were just not relevant to my life. No one paid attention to my needs, not even myself.
My overwhelming feeling was confusion. I couldn't make decisions, couldn't work out what was right or wrong, who was right or wrong- or whether it mattered anyway.
Long-term therapy is what is helping me.

I could have written your post amverytired - divorce is what is helping me. It was my dad who we tried to placate, he would go into sulks very easily, also had the knack of misunderstanding everything. Mum was unhappy and talked to me about it and I tried to do 'romantic things from a daughter' to make up for it. I got very good at projecting a better version of reality over it all, to the extent that it even partially fooled me. And part of the problem was thinking this can't be normal, but having little to compare with.

I understand them now, but it took a very long time - I am well into my 50's. It helped a lot.

Much the same as amverytired. I've been seeing a psychotherapist weekly for a couple of years and it's changing my life, all for the better. Looking back, I realise that my history of depression and abusive relationships were rooted in my experience of having emotionally abusive parents. I was completely unable to recognise my own needs and even had difficulty seeing myself as a separate person from my parents! I felt very scared and confused, anxious about almost everything. A lot of these issues are ongoing and I have still have lots of work to do, but I'm learning that I'm not responsible for my parents' happiness, I don't have to do what they expect of me and it's fine, healthy even, to put my needs first.
Therapy is terribly hard, painful work at times, but completely worth it. Having said that, the advantage of reading a book is that you're free to pick it up and put it down whenever you want to, so it's useful for exploring these issues in a more gentle way. Good luck OP and well done on recognising your needs so far x

I had no comprehension as to what my own 'needs' were, I was only aware of other peoples opinions of me. It's very easy to manipulate someone that thinks like this.

You know you can be cognisant of something for a long time without really 'feeling' it, then somebody else's take on it finally gets it home?

You just did that :) Thank you.

amverytired I completely empathise with your situation with your (ex?)DP...it is EXACTLY what we went through with my dad. Walking on egg shells permenantly, standing at the doorway when i got back from school listening how he was moving around the house so i could judge his mood, and my mum telling me to go give him a cuddle after an argument as i was the one who seemed to be able to make things ok again. I am remembering more now. It's funny how you forget the detail and the extent. He still behaves very badly and has no friends as a result. He is so miserable inside himself that he makes us feel guilty. The thing that has made me realise that it has affected me is that in every relationship i have I am looking for these behaviours and not trusting that they are not there. And whilst there is the possibiltity that I am attracting men who disply similar behaviours to my dad, I am actually wondering whether it is ME with the problem...that I am searching for these behaviours and refusing to accept they are not there and relax, and overreacting to situations that other people could just deal with becuase I am more sensitive...

Anyway...i agree that counselling would be good to try and sort this out, and to make sure I judge my relationship fairly and give my baby a stable upbringing and I will look at these websites and books too. Thank you for the advice. I am not in the UK so will need to look for private therapy. Can anyone help me with this? What kind of therapy should I look for and also is it possible to find online/telephone therapy?

thanks for talking people...this is becoming a little clearer in my head already...i think!! ;)

garlicbreath also....yes, also i need to think what my needs are. With everyone i just try and make them happy, put them first, think it is my job to make them happy when they are sad/angry whatever. Again, I do this to all partners I have, and i am again thinking that maybe I start doing this without them demanding it, because I have become used to playing this part. How do we learn to put oursleves first and act on our needs?

all partners i have had !!! I only have one at a time ;)

if you were in the UK, you would go to the BACP website for a therapist - they might be able to advise you on partner bodies in the country you are in. Don't be afraid to change therapists if you aren't happy - you have to be comfortable. Oliver James (who wrote a great book called They Fuck you UP which I would also recommend) - says you should have a therapist the same sex as you, I would agree.

if cost of books is a concern, on Amazon you can often buy second hand , sometimes for a few pence...

How do we learn to put oursleves first and act on our needs?

Therapy and/or assertiveness training.

Regarding your question about online/telephone therapy, Relate does e-mail therapy; not sure if residency requirements apply though. This would be therapy based on your couple, though.

Many psychotherapists with extensive websites (the kind who have published self-help books) will also do e-mail consultations. The ones I know of are all about recovery from abusive partners though so would not be of help to you.

Is language an issue where you are? If you're in a non-English-speaking country but in a city that has a sizable expat community, chances are that there will be English-speaking psychotherapists there (that turned out to be the case where I live).

noseinbook I don't really understand your picture thing but i am really interested in NLP...is there something I could read to explain more?

Well, some people make an internal picture when they think about something. Say I think of my dad and in the picture I make in my head he seems near, then if I deliberately make him seem further away, my internal reaction to him will change.

Not everyone sees internal pictures, hence the suggestion to try it with drawing.

There is a limit to what one can do on one's own, because NLP often works better if working in a pair, one person helping the other person to try out changes.

Too tired to link tonight, O'Connor and Seymour's Introduction to NLP is quite good.

'Acting on our own needs' - that's the crux of it really isn't it?
My problem, like many others here, was that I didn't know what my own needs were/are. Principally, I now realise, because when growing up my needs were dismissed whenever I verbalised them or tried to express them in some other way. If I was upset/scared/worried/stressed, I just had to get over it.

When my relationship was abusive (dh has been in therapy too for a number of years - we are still together), I was told that I was 'oversensitive', 'overreacting', 'can't take a joke', 'expecting too much', 'needy and demanding' and when it was really bad that I 'pushed him too far' etc. Because I had depression, I believed all this. After all, I must be a nightmare to live with, mustn't I?

I lived a sort of double life - one where I managed to convince everyone else that things were fine, and the other where I was utterly miserable.

I was completely confused. On one hand I 'knew' that it was not right to be treated as I was (and dc...) but on the other I was told so often that it was my behaviour that triggered everything. I could see that my depression was affecting things in a very negative way (unable to do things for example) but I simply did not think that this actually meant I needed more support. I just accepted the abuse because deep down I believed I deserved it for being so useless.

Now I am at the stage of being able to separate out things more. If we have a disagreement, I can see that 'what' were are arguing about is one thing, but 'how' we are disagreeing is another. No matter 'what' the subject is, it's not acceptable to treat the other person badly (by shouting, sulking etc). This has been a major breakthrough for me.

I'm also actively working on actually verballising my needs. I'm a SAHM (who works part-time) and now I realise I 'need' a break from dc every now and then. This has meant asking dh to take the dc out for a bit every other week-end or so. Previously I would have been too afraid to ask, because I would have gotten a barrage of abuse about how 'selfish and lazy' I was etc. given that he was working during the week and actually that it was him that needed the break. Now I just stick to my guns and actually dh himself suggests to take dc out.
Overall this makes a big difference to my mental health and thus allows me to be less 'useless' and then I can also give dh a break from dc/household stuff. Understanding that this was important to me took about 2 years of therapy though!

I'm still 'oversensitive' though. The difference now is that I can bring up what is upsetting me (it might take a few days) and it can then be resolved (often this takes a bit of time too). Not being able to express this stuff puts a huge strain on you emotionally. You carry it around, obsessing about it. Much better to get it out into the open. I no longer accept that just because I'm 'oversensitive' that that means my feelings can be dismissed.

yy to thinking I must be a nightmare to live with because depressed.

A lot of the depression was due to living with him.