Is my MIL mentally ill or toxic? Are these things the same?

[tortoisefairy]

I have been married to dh for 8 years. Over this time MIL has stopped talking to both of us for numerous reasons. (asking to spend christmas day with alternative parents each year/ claiming not seeing enough of dgc / telling her we cannot help her financially if she does not take responsibility for her own spending) to give a few examples.

She really upset me about 5 years ago when ds1 was born by claiming I shouted at her and DS when DP wasn't around. At this point I told dh that I was not prepared to be on my own with her so that she couldn't make any more false accusations. At this point I actively got dh to get in touch with doctor to see what medication/diagnosis for her mental health (MH) was available. We were told due to patient confidentiality this was not possible but they would assess her. She was subsequently put on diazepan (sp?) for when she got anxious and given 6 months of counselling.

This year we have made a really huge effort to improve her living conditions, hoping this would have a positive impact on her mh. She lives in those extreme houses you see on TV and collects newspapers (annually we remove about 5 estate car loads of newspapers) and hoards cd's dvd's and various other stuff. I used my mum and dad to look after our 3 kids so that we could go round there and clear away, clean, throw out stuff and organise her. This has been the only time I have had away from the children this year, apart from a few hours here and there. Anyway, obviously as she is so emotionally attached to this stuff it takes ages to get anything done but we were getting there. Then one night she threw me out as I really calmly said that she shouldn't constantly ask us for money and then spend her money on stuff she doesn't need more of.

She has used this to demand that only dh goes round there to finish sorting her house, whilst still expecting it to be fine to come to our house and play happy families.

We have managed her at arms length for some time, and tried to help her when we can. She moans at not seeing enough of dgc,(she has monthly full 12 hour visits), but when here actively avoids doing anything with them. Insisting rather on washing up etc. which is fine. (I should mention here that her own children were given custody to their Dad when dh was 5) I understand her issues and pain around losing her kids this way but she was a danger to them at this stage. She has NO other family she speaks to, and only one friend left. We have begged her to make-up with the other friend she had but the other friend called us to say they couldn't handle her abuse any more. So she obviously has mh issues, but how much should I be willing to take?

She phoned dh on friday to tell him that she had proof I was a liar. (long story) but then phones on saturday to speak to dh (he wasn't here) and acted like everything was fine.

I am at the end of my tether as dh has been round there all day on one of his holiday days sorting whilst I have been home with 2 poorly kids. Our kids don't see him mon- fri due to the hours he works so I am resenting the time he spends there so much, but keep telling myself how ill she is, but I think that really she has mild mental health issues and is just very toxic. I don't want her illness to drive me and dh apart.

Sorry this is so long. Thanks for reading. I am happy for you to be blunt with your responses.

Regarding your thread header, people can be arses whether they are mentally ill or not. Being able to put a label on it might help you, but ultimately the important things for you to consider, regardless of any diagnosis, are:

• how her behaviour makes you feel,
• whether she is able/willing to change that behaviour, and
• whether you are willing to put up with it if she can't/won't.

How old is she?

DHs GM was brutally rude, everyone said she was plain nasty, but I always said she was on the slope to dementia. When she finally got diagnosed and was put into a home and had the right care and medication she became a much nicer person!

One bit of advice I will give you - you see how he treats his mother (ie he's round there doing things for her) - that is how he will treat you. If a man treats his mother with compassion then he'll treat his wife the same way. I wouldn't knock it, irritaing though it can be. You just have to shelve the resentment and count your blessings you do have a thoughtful husband.

Sorry not much help am i?

All I can suggest is you go back to the doctor, or in need alert social services that her living conditons aren't all they should be despite your best help. Manic collecting rubbish isn't 'normal' it goes way over and above hoarding.

troisgarcons - thanks, your comment re how he treats his mother really made me smile, as yes, I hadn't thought about how nice he treats her despite the level of abuse we sustain. She is tested regularly for dementia (she also has hypochondria) (sp?)
itsme - yes you are ultimately right. she makes me feel awful. I guess if she has some kind of diagnosis i am willing to put up with more than if she is just 'nasty'. But all 'nasty' people are mentally ill right? She will not change adn I don't know what I am willing to put up with anymore. I guess dh and I need to figure this out and draw some boundaries.
thesecondcoming-it is so tiresome, but at least dh is on my side and knows what she is like. He has just come home and is frankly very down after spending the day there. It's not fair on any of us.

troisgarcons- what would ss do? she is very wary of them as she sees them as the enemy after loosing her own children. How could I find out what they could do to help her - it really is too much for us to handle on our own.

This sounds horrendous, your poor thing having to put up with it. You sound very patient.

She sound like she does have some sort of personality disorder, or a bitterness so out of control it's unlikely she'll ever change. If I were in your shoes, I'd make sure my expectations of her behaviour were so low I'd be unable ever to let her hurt me. Easier said than done.

And definitely check in with SS about the hoarding. My aunt has this. It's unhygenic as well as very bad karma. And, yes, expensive too. Why are you apying for her?

SS? I don't really know! (told you I was helpful) but they also have an older folks section, it's not all about children.

The lady she fell out with - would she go to the Docs with you/DP and explain how irrrational MIL has become? The SS will step in if she is deemed 'vunerable' in any way. She's already accusing family of theft - maybe she's prone to doorstep con-artists. It's quite obvious she has MH issues - you/DP are going to have to go back to the doctor. Depending on how unstable she she is, it might be that you need to see a solicitor if she can't manage her own money and get a power of attorney over her affairs. But that might open up a can of worms, your DH might be the only person talking to her but his siblings will undoubtedly perceive he is trying to access her assets

One thing I would caution, only coz I've read it, if you get the SS too heavily involved and they take power of attorney they do take an indiscriminate chunk of money for 'admin style' costs.

Going to be a bit of tricky one all round I think

No, mentally ill =/= toxic. I'm mentally ill, my partner is, my father is, my mother is. That doesn't excuse someone lying or being manipulative and emotionally abusive.

Blimey, sounds like hard work!

Can I first congratulate your DH on having grown up kind, even-temepered and reasonable despite having a poorly mother. And you on having married him!

MIL clearly is delusional, what with the paranoid accusations and sudden amnaesias, so there's little doubt of her illness whatever it might be. Hoarding is a common symptom of OCD - also a mental illness. What with one thing and another, it looks safe to say her behaviours are symptoms of whatever's wrong with her. But they are still toxic. It's unsuprising that they're putting such a strain on you and your family life.

Putting out more feelers for support for her is important. Equally or more important, though is your emotional & mental health. This might sound a little strange, but have you thought of getting counselling for yourself? If you can afford it, it would help you keep necessary perspective on her nastiness (easier to say "Don't take it personally" than to stay detached in real life!) and give you a neutral dumping-ground for your frustrations. If DH were on board with the idea, it could result in the pair of you coming up with some new strategies to minimise his mother's impact on your family, too.

In other circumstances, I'd be leaning more towards "Never mind the illness, evacuate her from your life". Given the delicacy of the relationships all round here, and the fact that she's not a permanent presence in your life, I think it might be better to secure your own mental health first, gain much-needed detachment, get help if possible and then look at the problem(s) from a firmer standpoint.

there seems to be a degree of mental illness, but that's not an excuse for unpleasant behaviour. I think your DH should spend less of his free time decluttering her house and more time with you and the kids. Isn't there a danger she will just fill the house back up with junk if she's not taking steps to combat her ocd/hoarding tendencies. I think garlic has a good point about counselling for you and/or DH to help you both get your head round this challenging relationship

OP - no, NOT ''all 'nasty' people are mentally ill'' !!
& definitely many mentally ill people (including those with personality disorders, OCD etc) are NOT nasty or toxic!!
Some people can use their illnesses (mental or physical) to manipulate their families or as an excuse for bad behaviour.
Some people get very angry / fed up when trying to cope with mental distress & take it out on close family or friends, thus alienating those whose support they need the most.
Your MiL could fit any of those scenarios & she does sound like very hard work.
But she is your DH's mother - let him continue to help her & to see your DC. If she just does washing up on her visits then just find her more housework!
As for her hoarding - no it's not 'normal', neither is her making strange accusations. If she can't get / won't accept GP or social worker help then you can't do much. When she is nasty you & DH should just make a joke of it, eg 'honestly what a thing to say, you're so funny, got to go, speak soon, bye'.
Either she's being nasty on purpose or she really believes what she says.
Try to ignore the accusations - very difficult but a reaction is what she probably wants.

Ariana86 - yes you are right. sorry I don't mean to offend people with mh probems. I know lots of lovely people who have mh problems but I guess I just rationalise her bad behaviour due to her mh issues. This is not the right thing to do.
Garlic - yes dh is lovely, i am very lucky. You are right re counselling. Being able to dump some of these negative feelings would help i think.

I spoke to dh yesterday re all this explaining that I feel for me, she has one more chance and thats it for me. But really, who am i kidding, soon enough she will do something again to really upset me and then where does that leave dh. He will then have to manage her and the kids on his own. I feel this is ultimately unfair on him.

I will push for him to get in touch with doctor again, as there was an improvement in her attitude with the counselling.

It is incredibly frustrating that despite her trying to take her own life twice when DH was small, no one has ever referred her to get some help. It took me to push it. Which is why I feel ultimately so hurt as I am the one who always defends her.