How do I deal with this situation - I can't ask anyone in real life.

[ArtVandelay]

Hello

I feel like people irl will judge me if I talk to them about this. I don't know what to do though and i can't stop crying or eat and I feel like such a failure.

I live overseas in a modern-type European country but in a region that doesn't like 'outsiders'. I have had various issues over time with a few native people who seemed to have an agenda but I have been getting a much thicker skin about it, even though I shouldn't have to imo.

This morning at play group, out of the blue a woman told me that she would only speak X language with me, because she's decided its better for me - okay, bit rude but not taken as such because thats normal within this culture. No problem says I, good idea. But then she really gets into it and says I can only speak X language from now on to the whole group because its a X group, for X people and its better for the group if I never speak English, that its spoils the group. She then talked some more about this and kept asking - 'do you understand me? Do you understand me? I said no, that she was talking to fast and using a lot of words I didnt know. We were sitting around a large table. Everyone was staring at me and laughed when I said I didnt understand. She tutted at me and then shut-up. No one spoke to me again. I left after that - just humiliated and feeling really, really stupid. I told the leader what I thought and she said the woman was wrong and she would tell her that she can't tell me what to do. She said please come back next week. I had tears streaming down my face and again pretty embarrassing.

I thought we'd all been getting on great before this - I had been speaking bit of X, bit of English and enjoyed it. Now I feel stupid for even trying to venture out of my English groups and friends. I can't speak to my friends about this as they are mostly married to X people and they don't have the integration issues and I'm embarrassed that I've failed. My husband works at an international company and is tall and confident, although he is also a foreigner here noone ever gives him shit about his accent or tries to imtimidate him so he just thinks I make it up.

How do I go back to the group next week? Noone saw me cry, but they saw me leave early and the leader will have had a chat with this woman. How should I deal with the woman? I just want my son to have his play group and I can bear to sit alone if needs be.

Sorry this is so long - I just feel so terrible and need someone to understand and hopefully get some advice. I just feel so alone, I'm really shocked at how this has knocked me.

Ok well I'm going to go against the grain here. This woman was undoubtedly unpleasant to you but...you are in their country and I think it's fair enough that you're expected to speak their language. I can see that it might be a real pain for those in the group who speak English to have to be the ones who are focussing on you.

You moved there, you have to integrate, sorry.

Hah! Its so obvious where I live :)

I've heard that its harder for non-Bavarian Germans here than foreigners even. Its just all a bit Roysten Vasey in this town. That said, I do like my neighbours and there's some nice people that work in the shops round here, always got a smile and a chirpy comment so I really can't say its an unfriendly place per se.
I think some people just get a bit uncomfortable around me, like they think they have something to prove (like that I should understand that they are educated or important in some way) and then start getting a bit inappropriate. One time in a supermarket I had to tell a man to stop trying to talk to me or I would get the police. He was getting so aggressive in his efforts to communicate something (i'm not sure what) to me. That time my husband said 'he was probably trying to flirt with you' which didn't go down too well with me, to put it mildly.
Thats why I'm not going to talk to him about this because there is absolutely no point, he is in complete denial that people differentiate between how they treat him, big/tall/trilingual man in his suit and tie and being a woman, speaking inaccurate German pushing a buggy.

Rhinestone

The group is not focussed on me, just to clear that up, we do activities and might chat a little between ourselves - it is a teacher-led session that I pay for.

The people in the group that speak to me in English do so through their own choice. I can speak the native language and do.

Or maybe I should go back where I came from

You moved there, you have to integrate, sorry

No she doesn 't she could stick to an expat bubble.

But she hasn't, she has learned the national language, has put herself out there to learn the local dialect and culture by socialising with the people of the area and has not isolated or insultaed herself out of choice.

An expectation that people should make an effort is not carte blanch to be a bitch.

Especially since it is clear that the OP IS making an effort simply by chosing to go to a local grpup rather than an expat one.

I would never have learned Italian or integrated (or assimilated as my Sister complains in a rather accusatory tone) if people had felt my initial babysteps and stumbles were a green card to give me a verbal kicking so they could be extra up their own arse that day.

It is for the greater good of all concerned if people get together despite their differneces to seek out their similarities, but that can't and won't happen in a negative atmoshere of dictated expectation and no slack cutting.

Rule one of language learning, confidence on the part of the learner and tolerance on the part of the native speaker are vital to the process. The first cannot exist without the second.

I don't mean to be unkind and I did say I thought the woman was really unpleasant. I also meant to say that maybe it's worth finding a different group.

But the fact remains that you're in their country and I think it's perfectly reasonable that you're expected to speak German. I can completely see that having some people speak English to you does spoil the social nature of the group. If people want to speak English to you then great, that's up to them, but maybe they're getting a bit fed up with it and this woman was the only one blunt enough to tell you.

I still think that if you move to a foreign country then the onus is on you to learn the language. And it's not the job of the other women in the group to have their experience affected by speaking English to you.

Hello again, DH has just got in and I did tell him and he was actually very upset and indignant about the whole thing. I have been a bit unfair on him really - he says there's a big difference with people being rude/inept (previous incidents) and what the woman did, he's really furious in fact.

A huge thankyou to everyone that has made a comment, I have calmed right down and I'm going to group again, next week and just stay out of her way. DH says if she tries anymore of this stuff we'll to the town council and body that run the group (co-organised thing) and tell them about it.

Hang on Rhinestone so I am just supposed to read everyone's minds and correctly guess that they are choosing to speak English to me but actually they hate it and I am in fact spoiling the group?

Wow, just think, all this time when I've been going to groups, and work and clubs and things people have been having their experience spoilt because I am a different race, or sex or have a different accent... I never even realised this because accomodating different people is something I just do and thought others did.

Fuck, maybe I should leave the group now I know whats really going on

OP, I never meant to upset you and I think you're over reacting. Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.

Okay, well, its not that I'm upset its more that I'm astonished. Migration, immigration, whatever... its just a fact of life nowadays. Its at the least nimbyism (and at the worst racism) to say you can't join a group because you are an immigrant and as such can't speak the native language fluently and that means you spoil it for the natives. Its not an option anymore to chase foreigners out of native groups, if only because there are so many of us! Honestly, you'd think it was the 1960's or something to read your posts.

OP, I'm beginning to see why people may not want to talk to you.

Ach, ArtVandelay, there are people in every country who will get their knickers in a twist at any hint of an immigrant not speaking the language perfectly . Don't sweat it.

After all, how are you supposed to learn this dialect thing without talking to the natives? I bet there isn't a Rosetta Stone for it!

You get out there, chew those toffees, and flob with the best of them.

I had this at a conference in France really. I don't speak French and although most there spoke very good English they refused because I should speak French (despite rarely visiting the place and speaking other languages)

I had a meeting with a yacht broker in Cannes, she wanted me as a client.

We met in a cafe, the waiter spoke to her in english, assuming she was english (it was the biggest event of the Cannes year) She tore him off a strip and then huffily stated with a voice dripping with disgust that he had assumed she was Eenglisshh

She didn't get my yacht bookings...

Funny that....

WRT dialects, when I lived in Brazil, I lived in Sao Paulo. At the time there was a soap running that was based in the north east. I couldn't understand a word of the Baiano. use to really irritate me, cos everyone was raving about it.

Mind you, it occurred to me that if I lived up there, I'd have had that accent. I did for a while end up picking up the southern Gaucho accent, but being pale skinned and european looking, it went un-noticed.

That Amanda Knox person, the one that has been released from italian prison. She's understandably fluent in italian now. Which was of course one of the reasons for wanting to study in Italy. But I would imagine the Prison Accent/dialect was not what she imagined she'd have....

Oh God

Amanda Knox is following me to other threads even though I hide the fuckers dedicated to the subject for the sake of not exploding in apoplexy.

Another dissenting voice - sorry. Here's the thing: most foreigners (both in Germany and in UK) can't just slip in and out of their mother tongue when they get a bit stuck, because by and large the locals don't speak it - imagine a UK playgroup where a German participant lapsed into German for the more complex bits. There is a language learning phenomenon that particularly affects migrant adults and operates on a semi-conscious level 'plateau' - you stop absorbing as easily once you can speak enough to meet your direct needs. Carrying on using English as a safety net will mean that you plateau at a much lower level of German than foreigners who don't have the good fortune to speak such a widely ubderstood language. I know it's tough, i know about small-world Germans but, to be honest, I would stop switching into English. That women was clearly a bitch but she was also 'right', in some ways.
It can be really hard, but you absolutely will assimilate better and quicker if, now that your German is pretty competent, you stop relying on English as a fallback in those situatuons.

Cold thanks for responding. I know what you mean - its the same principle that they use on these 'total immersion' language courses. If people start speaking to me in English what can I do though? We are not talking a bunch of farmers here - at least 4 women in the group have lived in English speaking countries for a spell. I talk in German only to the leader and one of the women. I'm stuck in the middle here. What can I do? March into the group and say 'I will only speak German'.

The problem was I was aiming to keep my head down, not draw attention to myself and just do the activities. I am very quiet when I'm there - just greetings, smiling and if someone approachs I'll talk to them. I know plenty of people, including Germans, that go into their own language when stumped for the English, I have never thought this was a funny thing to do.

I want to just kind of be there, follow the activities and soak up the atmosphere... English playgroup is for talking and planning stuff and getting more lively. This was meant to be a first step, next step another group etc. so that I can get a feel for stuff so when DS starts school I don't do anything too wierd or alienating by mistake.

Anyway, I will return and I'm just going to politely ignore the woman. I think that the reasons for this happening are very complex and tied up with the way Germans relate to immigrants and 'gast arbeiters' - its a big political thing over here - not something that I have any control over or should take on board particularly.

I think this use of dialect is to do with group behaviour. It sounds like the woman wants to dominate the group. Speaking in a way which excludes newcomers is not uncommon. You see it in village hall groups which suddenly switch from discussing Coronation Street to talking about exclusively village matters when a newcomer joins the group. It's like a test or something.

My suggestion would be to continue to speak in German. Ask for help where necessary. When we lived in the Netherlands we had people telling us that we should totally immerse to learn Dutch. This works for some people but for others it can be a soul destroying experience. It was never going to work for us as the one language not spoken in my office was Dutch.

A lot of people dont understand that in an international career there may be many moves from one country to another. This week you need to speak German. Who knows, in a couple of years you may need Spanish or whatever. You arent becoming German you are just staying for a while.

Gnome when I lived in NL noone would speak Dutch with me! Where you in the South - Brabant or Limburg? Thats the only place when I found I actually needed to speak Dutch and thats only occasionally. You can't win! I have learned more Dutch in Germany watching Dutch tv all the time (thanks DH). No doubt we'll end up back in NL sometime so its worth keeping up. I don't want to be 'a German', I don't feel particularly strongly about being English either I just want to get on with things with as little drama as possible.

To clear up the dialect thing - no one is speaking full-on Bayerische! Its just its a strong accent and they do substitute words, thats the tricky bit - if you know the substitution the rest of the sentance make sense. If the person speaks fast then they may as well be speaking Klingon to my ears.

Thanks everybody who has commented (even if I disagreed :) )

Nasty bitches exist in all countries/cultures.

Don't let her upset you.

Good luck! I'm sure that you are right - the woman is trying to establish some kind of ranking of belonging - not very pleasant. Gnome, I'm sure some people don't understand the difference between international careers and migration. I think I just about get it though. Of course, when you move around you sign up for as much integration as you want. As for local languages, I always find I plateau around the level where I can argue with a utility company about a bill .

I'd go back but I'd make a point of not speaking to her in either language.

I worked in Austria for a bit and it is alienating not understanding what people say, obviously I picked up a huge amount from listening and tried my best to contribute to conversations with my O Level German, but a lot of people specifically sought me out because they wanted to practice their English with a native speaker.

Having correctly guessed Germany and Bavaria as I was reading down the thread, I now needwant to know which part of Bavaria and which sub-dialect they are subjecting you to

I'm in Bavaria too. The self-appointed life coaches - sums it up perfectly - are best dealt with by reminding yourself that they have a perfect ability to compartmentalise practical and emotional affairs - so their interfering practical advice can be genuinely helpfully meant and does not necessarily contain the emotional judgement about being a failure etc that you read into it. I fully appreciate that it is still bloody annoying but it can be best to just take a deep breath and at least consider leaving emotion out of your response as well.

The other ladies in the group who do speak English I would look on as allies and maybe explain to them that you enjoy the language exchange with them and maybe arrange to meet one or more of them for coffee outside the group. You also might be able to sneakily spread the word around through them that you fully agree how important it is to speak Hochdeutsch, and indeed you do, but that for the sake of your children's future you are concentrating on that rather than on the toffee-spewing dialect

It's so important though above all that your husband gets onside and understands how this is all making you feel so glad to read that he did gain a bit more of an insight. And do keep up with your English-speaking circles as well - everyone needs to have a bitch now and again about the locals, no matter how much we love some aspects of living here. (Are you a member of one of the expat forums?)

ArtVandelay we were just outside Rotterdam and living in a village. We found that the 'everyone speaks English' wasnt true for us at all. We werent living in a particularly expat area and had sent our children to the local school rather than the British school. Of course this meant that all the school friends were Dutch and the DCs played korfbal. I still have nightmares about the letters from school for SinterKlaas written in rhyming couplets.

Despite all the helpful advice we didnt immerse ourselves in Dutch. We decided that we wanted our DCs to learn their Dutch from proper Dutch speakers rather than from us.

One thing we were keen to do was ensure that the DCs kept up their English. A friend of ours - a French man married to a Dutch woman was told (more helpful advice) not to speak to his children in French as it would confuse them. He followed this helpful advice and now his children cant talk to their Grandparents which is very sad for them all.