very bad day with dd

[springydaffs]

things have been bad between me and dd (25) for about 5 years. When I say bad, I mean very bad. sometimes I haven't known where she is for over a year. she won't stay at my house, insists I am abusive etc. I have thought and thought about what she means, really turned myself inside out, and I just can't see what she means. I'm not exactly slow about confessing my faults iyswim. I'd rather get it out of the way re if it's harming me or anyone else I'd rather deal with it. So far, I have drawn a blank about her accusations.

Except to say I have short shrift with people who are manipulative. I am also straight to the point, don't hang around; set boundaries if I absolutely must, make it clear what they are, then enforce them if I have to. I don't enjoy doing it - would much rather not - but sometimes you have to be clear with people who push. I know I sound like a sergeant major but there we go. I have very little truck with manipulative behaviour. It bores me to death.

dd hasn't been to my house since christmas. she stayed last night - a first since christmas (when she left promptly on boxing day, stating I had 'insulted her boyf's mother', twisting a comment I made, out of context and all proprortion). She stayed last night because we had a special treat we planned months ago for dd2 but because of the lack of contact with dd1 we haven't been able to do it. It was important we left on time and dd1 kicked up with major manipulative behaviour. The pressure was on - as at christmas. The upshot is that she mucked about so badly that I firstly warned that if she didn't get her act together the whole thing was off. all my kids know I mean this (but all my kids know how much it hurts me if I have to enforce it! I don't make a song and dance about it but it is a real downer - it does upset me). She pushed it and pushed it and then refused to get in the car - by now the time was really tight. I was well-frazzled by this stage - shouted at her earlier about a towel (should've known I was starting to go over the edge) - I now realise (though didn't at the time). Anyways, the upshot is that I left without her. I could cry my eyes out. I'm so upset!

I feel I was completely set up. She goes off with her 'stories' about what a terrible mother I am. She doesn't know how lucky she is, really she doesn't. I don't labour the point and have never said it (perhaps I should?). She has ruined another family event but for all the world it looks like I did

I've read this and

you may have come across as perhaps an excessive disciplinarian

but... so do many kids have that parent and do not behave like that

Can you think why your daughter behaves so differently to the others??? Anything that may have happened to seriously alter her personality?

Yep, it was Bradshaw :) The other one is a very nice set of creative exercises, building on what you learnt with 'Homecoming'. Thought it might be helpful in terms of diffusing some of the prickliness found on this thread; hope that's OK.

It's good that DD's making a slightly clumsy attempt to re-establish friendly relations ... isn't it?? Good luck!

hmm, maybe not excessive disciplinarian - more organised, Heiffer. I also married an extremely manipulative, abusive man and had to learn to be organised iyswim.

Link didn't work btw.

I also married an extremely manipulative, abusive man

Well thats probably why then tbh, the apple doesnt fall far from the tree in some cases sadly

clumsy opening text has turned into opening up an avenue to be very abusive. vv down emoticon. If she is true to her usual form, she will keep this going for a year? two? For the past week, her name has been flashing up on my phone re calls, texts - it's been wonderful. That'll probably stop now. She'll be going back to her city and it will probably be months and months (years?) before I hear from her again, before she answers my calls, before she sends another text. It's so hard.

See, just like CAMHS, if you have a child who is all over the shop, people make the assumption that it's you, it's your parenting, you did it to them somehow, their behaviour is a result of you/your parenting. Not necessarily so I'm afraid.

I remember you posting before about your DD and you did get some grief!

I know it really really hurts to think that you have a child who you are supposed to love unconditionally and they can be nasty shits to you.

No insightful knowledge from me I am sorry as my DS is only 10. DS gets warnings when he is naughty and then consequences.

I think you did the right thing warning your DD and then leaving her. She is not a child so she can cope on her own but if she is going to behave like a spoilt brat and ruin things for everyone then all you can do is be hard and have the consequences you do.

She doesn't get in the car in time = she doesn't come. Her fault not yours.

Don't reply to shitty emails/texts etc and get into arguments. Just stick to the you didn't get in the car = you didn't come, no one else is suffering for your misbehaviour. After a few replies don't bother responding to aggressive hurtful texts at all.

If she is nasty in person then move away/leave.

Easier to say I know when you risk your DD then cutting you off

Good luck

Well, circumstances do things to people, especially small, dependent people. I picked up on where you said DD claims you were/are abusive, as I think most of your other respondents have. You've not said what kinds of abuse she feels she suffered, but have opened your heart about fears that she may have been affected by your first marriage. I agree, she could have been - also, what sort of contact did she have with her father after you split?

Perhaps she is irredeemably loopy. It would be devastating for you to have to accept that, and work with whatever you've got for the rest of your life, and it seems a little early to be abandoning all hope just yet.

One of the many changes that have happened since I grew up is the rule of thumb, "If you feel abused, then you are abused." OK, it's just a rule of thumb but, as such, it's a damn sight more helpful than all the tough rules of my youth, like "Sticks & stones ... names will never hurt me" or "Take your punishment, only ninnies cry." Etc

She feels hurt, evidently. Saying she shouldn't feel hurt doesn't help. Even if she does turn out to have a personality disorder, the underlying pain is real. I don't know whether you will be able to get to the bottom of it all and/or develop a more wholesome relationship with her, but I can see you want to try. You are the mother - and the one who's done the threapy - so the onus, unfortunately, is on you to be the bigger, wiser person. This might involve your becoming a "therapist". It will certainly require a lot of patience, and recognising how you've contributed to her preceived pain.

Am I making any sense?

erm, partially. I am extremely distressed at the mo though tbh. Have you ever met anyone with a personality disorder? particularly this one? probably NPD, very probably. have you loved anyone - dearly - who has a personality disorder; who chooses to channel all of their pain and anxiety into abusing you half to death? I have - her dad. And here it is again. I never thought anything could be more painful than my marriage. I was wrong - there is nothing that hurts you as much as when it's your children. Nothing at all.

Just words on a page.

Springy

I don't remember reading any of your previous threads, I'm sorry. But I am not quite sure why you are getting such a hard time on this one.

I come from a family of narcs on both sides of my parents, and I married into a family of them too.

Your daughter sounds like my sister. Always quick to take offence. Always 'poor me'...jealous of attention given to anyone else, impossible to deal with. I have walked on eggshells with her all my life (fifty years so far!). I can't count the times she has created a scene and I have driven off without her. I have tried holding my words and I have finally gone off the deep end with her a couple of years ago when she set about one of my DC with her vicious tongue for no reason on my DC's birthday.

She is exactly as my father was. He was impossible to deal with in any shape or form. And violent too.

It is now accepted that PDs are genetic, and of course run in families. Of course treatment accorded to a child can result in these disorders, the main windows for preventing then occur around about the toddler stage, and there is another window at around 14 years old.

I left my Pd'ed exH and my DCs' father when my youngest was 14. I think I have just managed to save him. He does have some of the traits of narcissism still, but I hope that that will fade.

I was always aware from my DCs being born that I did not want them to end up like my parents, or my sister, so I came down hard on anything that looked as though it was heading that way. I didn't learn about PDs until after I had left my exH, but since then have done a great deal of research into these and my family.

It may be that I have just been lucky that my DCs do not have full blown NPD, or it may be that it is something I have done that has saved them. This PD is evident in all my family, in one or another shape or form, I have one or two relatives who are clear of it, but they have children with it.

You have all my sympathy and I hope that you will be able to get to some peace in your soul about this. I wonder if people would be so harsh on you if your daughter had another type of genetic disease? Something like Cystic Fibrosis perhaps, or Haemophilia?

There is a US forum with advice for parents of PDed children but it is a bit full-on. Let me know if you want a link.

xxxx

Hi Op,

Just a thought. Has there been any mention of Borderline Personality Disorder

This website is very good for information for families of suffers of various personality disorders, there is a great forum also psychcentral.com/

Her behaviour fits into the description. The black and white thinking, the projection and demonsing you etc

Yes, indeed, I have! Most of my immediate family, both husbands, my last boss and two of my best friends: all amateur diagnoses, though it now turns out my father was sent for psychiatric assessment by his employers. Obviously, as I was so habituated to mad behaviour, I didn't recognise the husbands and friends as unusual. I've only learned about the disorders since cutting all the non-relations out of my life and being cut out of theirs.

With my family members, I follow a program of detachment, appeasement and sympathy.

Gettingagrip, great post. Your dc's are really lucky to have you as their mother.

It is interesting to me that having been in a relationship with a manipultor, your child is manipulative and it's the ONE thing you cannot abide. Not leaping too far but did you feel manipulated as a child?

My advice would be to try to tolerate and not respond to manipulation. It seems to bring out the child in you - which is why I link (maybe I'm way off) to your childhood. Being inflexible to others faults is easier than accepting the way they are. If you can learn to rise above it and remain calm i would lay money you will have a different interaction with your child.

It seems you try to stay calm, tolerate more than you can handle then blow. The key would be to really BE calm about it. Accept the manipulation is not about you, it is about the idea of control the other person has.

Your DD sounds like she feels out of control of her raltionship with you, in turn she tries to control you via mainpulation, you (eventually) respond in a firm (but what seems controlling) way, she feels controlled/out of control so is manipulative and so on and so on...

If you want to break that cycle stop dancing to her tune. It seems that she's like a fisherman, baiting the hook and you bite every time.

I am sorry you are hurting but maybe you could view this as a chance to heal your difficluty with manipulative behaviour and learn not to take it so personally. Easier said than done though.

Springy, don't try and take in too much at once. I only found about it earlier this year from a thread in the behaviour section.

There are very helpful evaluation questionnaires for autism for ado's as well as adults and children at the cambridge autism research centre site. There is also a really good pda site that is linked to from the autism site. There's a parent forum on there that can give support to, if you need it. There are also autism support lines, too.

Parentline might have something, too. I haven't looked as I'm not in the UK anymore, so any organisations named aren't really relevant.

It's tough, there is help for partner abuse, child abuse, elder abuse, it's just in the middle that there isn't much available.

Good luck

Springy , what are her relationships like with others ?

Does she see her father?

same as with me, dignified - though I am singled out for the worst of it. Her father is dead.

Please do PM me the info and links gettingagrip. thank you so much for your post.

US forum

I'll post it here Springy as it might help someone else.

Thankyou carlywurly. But I am by no means perfect!

Springy, have you had any psychotherapy? I am just coming to the end of two years of it and it has really helped.

Instead of me thinking every day 'there is something really wrong with me' I know think 'there is something really wrong with them'. !

But the best thing is that most days I don't actually think about it at all. I have been freed from the burden of guilt and misery. I do still see my relatives, but on my terms, and if they start with their crap I leave. I see them as toddlers in their heads, and treat them accordingly. But toddlers with a nasty streak.

It is terrible for you to be coming to this realisation about your daughter, it has been my biggest fear always that one of my DCs would have this disorder. There are other people in your shoes though and they can hopefully give you some strength.

thanks gettingagrip

Personally, I think that there is an inherent danger in making/suggesting diagnoses either on the basis of some posts on an online forum or diagnoses of a family member. From your description of her childhood it does sound as though it could have been very challenging for her (and you, obviously). This doesn't mean that she doesn't have BPD, NPD or similar, indeed, the two things could be very closely linked, but by the same token it also increases the likelihood that her emotional development has been badly affected and you are experiencing the upshot of that.

Yes, it does sound like she has issues. But the dynamic of the relationship as you write it Springy sounds strange to me as well. Agree with others about your treating her like a child and don't believe that this is a good idea regardless of how she is behaving. If we don't like behaviour in adults that we deem to be childish then we often validate it by responding to them as we would a child and this can become a rather vicious circle.

Disagree with the poster above who suggests that you might need to start acting like a therapist. There's a reason why therapists maintain professional boundaries from their patients. They wouldn't be very successful otherwise.

The one thing that stands out to me from your posts above anything else is that you are going round in circles with her, and it is really upsetting you. That suggests that you need to change what you are doing. Doesn't mean that what you're doing is wrong per se, but simply that if you want progress then a change of tack is required. Sorry I can't suggest what changes. Sounds ike there's a huge history here and it would just be presumptious of me. One suggestion I will make is that you acknowledge that you can't control her and stop trying to. Acknowledge that you don't need to justify these difficult decisions to her and that she has the capacity to learn from them on reflection, rather than having them explained to her. And acknowledge that as hard as you might try, you cannot truly see things from her perspective. She may be your daughter, but she is not you. Don't agree with the comment above that 'if you feel abused then you are abused, but do agree that if you feel hurt then you have been hurt. The obvious follow on cliche is 'that hurt people hurt.'

Sorry, not much help, and hope it doesn't sound like I'm having a go. Good luck with it.

deepheat, you have quite rightly picked me up on some lazy language. I thought I'd better reply as there's already a fair amount of confusion on this thread ...

I put "therapist" in inverted commas because I didn't mean start trying to treat your daughter therapeutically! Since springydaffs has the advantage of age and experience over her daughter, she's in the better position to both enact the caring detachment that is usually needed when dealing with angry relationships, and to guide their conversations in such a way as to uncover or deal with underlying issues.

I don't see that it matters whether we use the word 'abused' or 'hurt' - we are both saying a person's stated pain should be respected. Springy's daughter used the word 'abused' so I adopted a maxim containing it.

Mostly a lurker, but also want to suggest you consider the possibility of a communication disorder. Lots of the behaviour you described struck a cord with me, in relation to my sister. She was diagnosed with Aspergers in her thirties.

hi springy, i am sorry you are having a tough time, you sound emotionally stretched to breaking point.

I have no idea about personality disorders and mh issues, and lots of great advice about that anyway, so I'll stick to what i feel i can add to... so assuming your daughter is hurt, angry and wanting to 'punish' you for whatever perceived/real abuse in the past here are my thoughts:

Firstly, you! your posts sound to me to be from someone very strong, someone who has endured a lot in her life, and is fighting everyday to make sure she doesn't go back there. Fighting as in, analysing and dealing with your own emotions in such a time pressured way, that seems to be driven by a fear of being in mid 'dealing with' state, feels like you are very very quick to close doors and get over stuff, almost impatiently. Fighting as in, you have found your way of dealing with things, your journey to put things to rest, and you seem to channel a lot of energy to keeping on that path and not diverting from it.

From your posts, it feels like you are expending a huge amount of emotional effort to be strong, to be emotionally 'well', to have boundaries, care for yourself, and keep up those strong values, thinking and feeling habits... almost feels like a fortress you are defending, rather than a relaxing way to live? might be off track here, but i wanted to ask...

• what happens if you let the walls slip a bit?
• what happens if you do let yourself (and by extension, your daughter) dwell on the past a little more?
• what happens if your rigid timescale, values and need for total forgiveness slips a little?

i guess am asking (very impertinently), what are you so afraid of? cos it feels like you are absolutely terrified of something?

I don't know, but maybe thinking about your worst fears can be freeing, it was for me, I realised i was already living my worst fear, so i could then stop being frozen by it and think of how to change to start making things better... completely different situation, but am wondering, it sounds like you have 2 worst fears, which also seem to me to be what you are living already...

1. that your daughter controls and dominates you, as she does everything around her (but isn't that kind of whats happening, maybe not in actions, but in your emotional state and reactions, she is totally in control?)
2. that she is like your ex husband... again, that hell feels a little bit like what you are describing now...

so the point of that is not to plunge you into even more misery, but to point out that my what you are doing now (interactions, assumptions, emotions, behaviours, reactions etc), you are living in your own personal hell - so if this isn;t working, something has to change!

sorry am posting at length, but bear with me if you can...

thoughts about the kinds of things that you could think about approaching differently (with the aim of being a bit nicer to yourself!):

• if the walls and strong fortress approach isn't working, what about a more flexible strength? can you show her that you don't need to control her, but also, that she also can't control your emotions and responses... stuff like, instead of rising to an argument, take a stance of 'i hear what you are saying, and am sorry you feel like that', but dont argue back, add fuel to the flames etc...

• I also wonder if your strong urge to accelerate and get her to replicate the emotional journey you've been on, is stopping her from moving forwards... people tend to move much quicker if they don't feel pushed and pulled into it (think donkey walking along vs donkey being pulled along against its will!)

... am trying to put myself into her position, and she may feel not heard or validated or resolved if she emotionally is hearing, 'yadda yadda yadda we've gone over this, whatever, it made you miserable but get over it...', when you think you are saying 'i am sorry you hurt my love, but you'll keep being hurt unless you can close it in your head...'

have you asked her what is stopping her from moving on? i wonder if she can articulate a reason she keeps on wanting to punish you, and herself by replaying negative scenes again and again...

and finally, just musing on forgiveness...

I love my parents, and know they love me, and want to build happy memories now not more angst... but i don't forgive them for what they did.

I understand why they are as they are, and am willing to accept that they didn;t mean to do it, and were so limited as people, they couldn;t see what damage they were doing, but i can;t forgive and wipe the slate clean, because i don;t think they would ever acknowledge what they did, or be sorry for it or learn from it.

BUT i still love them and want to have good interactions, and as normal a relationship as possible with them now and in the future.

I guess what i am trying to say is, she doesn;t have to 'forgive you' to love you and want to have a good relationship (although that would be the ultimate), she just has to want a better relationship with you now, and let the past stay in the past. for what ever reason she sounds like she can't forgive and forget, so i wonder if she thinks thats the only way she can move on, and therefore keeps wanting you to DO something to inspire her forgiveness... accept you can;t do that thing, because emotionally, she can;t get to forgiveness...

If my parents wanted forgiveness before moving on, i couldn;t give it to them, and would feel very angry that they'd even thought it was appropriate, and that would stop me from even being able to give understanding, which is what enables me to want to move forwards.

anyway, just trying to look at it from her point of view, in case that helps at all...

good luck, sounds horrible and i hope you find a way to get through it

Beautiful posts, imo, Double.