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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Re-instigating contact with toxic family. Should I?

42 replies

Pavlovthecat · 11/08/2011 10:02

I have been estranged from my sister for 4 years. It is long and complicated as it always is with toxic family, but I will give you as brief a background as possible so you have enough to give me some views.

Have 3 older siblings 10yrs/9yrs/6yrs older. My family grew up around violence due to an alcoholic who abused my mother. She finally left him when I was born, after suffering from a breakdown and being removed by friends. So I suffered mildly from the after-affects of the breakup of this, and the long term emotional damage left to my mother and to my 3 siblings, the oldest two the most.

My relationship with my sister who is 9yrs older - we had been v close when I was a child but due largely to her role as a 'mother figure' when my own mum was not able (as a baby) and as I grew she worked full time. As I became independent our relationship struggled between close and tense (when I did not live up to her expectations/did as she wanted).

Her relationship with my eldest brother has been bad. They did not talk for a long long time (12years, he has his own issues) and with my other brother, they are not close, they now do not talk, again for 4 years.

Things finally turned sour when my mother died. Or rather before this. She nursed my mother through illness, which was hard, and her judgmental controlling behaviour came out in full force, she refused support and wanted to control my mother completely. At this point my sister had become an Evangelist and she imposed her beleifs on to my mother somewhat which caused some tensions. Her relationship with my mum had been rocky too and partly mum felt my sister 'needed' to care for her. Make amends/sort out their relationship or something. I don't know.

When my mother finally passed, (I was informed on voicemail of this) the stress in my sister broke and she took it all out on me and the brother she was talking to. The other brother, for other reasons was not aware of my mother's passing, and my sister refused to let him know, until after the funeral, took great delight in telling him.

Her behaviour became unbearable, she took things from my mother's house, told us we had like one day to take what we wanted (other than stuff in the will) even though mum lived in london, I live in Devon and my brother lived in Yorkshire and was in the army. She was exceptionally horrible to my brother, did not speak to him prior to or on the day of the funeral, refused to go to his wedding two weeks after my mother died informing him the day before his wedding she had the flu (in fact didn't speak to him, got her husband to leave a voicemail). I suspect but have no evidence that she 'encouraged' my mum to change her will to remove my outcast brother, as my mother's will was changed two weeks before she died. She had previously told me my brother would be 'seen ok' but was not in the will at all. Not that there was much to give.

My mum's express which was that her ashes were scattered in Glastonbury from the Tor, with family present. This was going to be with all of us including the outcast brother.

Then my dad died, 4 months after my mum. My sister was angry at me about not wanting to go the funeral 'he is your father' even though I met him like 2-3 times in my entire life, and those were as a young child. She lied to me about relatives of his making contact, stating there was none, when they had been trying to get hold of me. She refused to pass on details and at this point our relationship pretty much stopped.

I then wrote an email (a few weeks afterwards) to all the family asking if we could all put our difference aside for a day and scatter mum's ashes as was her wish. I received a poisonous letter from my sister informing me that she and her husband had already done this (on the day of my brother's wedding, two weeks after mum died), and actually she did not do it herself, her husband did it while she waited at the bottom of the Tor (my mum did not particularly like her husband). She told me that my mother was already gone, the ashes were just skin and bone cremated, and that her soul was already with god and all her husband had done was chuck her skin and bone away. She informed me in this letter that she had already saved mum's soul as she repented her sins before she died, called me a petulant and hot headed child and that I should grow up. I wrote a letter back simply stating we should avoid contact for a while and asking for some of the things that belonged to me (birthday cards from mum that she had taken, and ones I had sent her, photos, she had them all, my birth tag, a necklace). I advised her I did not think it was a good idea that she came to my non-christian wedding in sept (mum died in Jan, this email was in June). She replied saying she never had any intention of coming and that I would not get any of my things back until she was ready. Contact ended then.

for the last two years she has sent me a christmas car which I have binned. She does not know I have a second child and she has had no contact with or from my other siblings.

My dilemma is - for the last 4 years I have been adamant that I cannot have her in my life, but she has two children, who are growing older with no family. And I looked at my children today and thought of how old they are compared to my sisters and how they would probably get on, and how it would be nice to have them play together. Then I thought about how close I was once upon a time with my sister and thought of the good times (there were lots as well as bad times). I think about how lonely she must be as she has little friends (she judges everyone very harshly and dislikes most people) and how she must have been grieving for mum after caring for her and then her dad died. My husband thinks I should make peace with her and I find myself sometimes agreeing. And then I think of all the resentments I have against her and do not think I can do it, i remind myself that this behaviour is not just grief, but was always there, the grief just made it 100x worse and she will always be this way and I am not sure I can ever forgive her for her appalling behaviour at a time when we all needed each other.

I just wondered if I should? Would I be opening myself up to heartbreak. Or indeed have i been unreasonable?

OP posts:
Dignified · 11/08/2011 13:27

I think if she had possibly contacted you to express remorse at the way things are / have been , i would consider some contact , but she hasnt so i wouldnt . In my experience these toxic people simply get worse as they get older , not better . I also found that all the old toxic dynamics get played out again , no matter how many years have passed .

I would seriously consider the consequences of exposing your children (and yourself ) to someone like this . This is a lesson that your kids just dont need to learn .

Pavlovthecat · 11/08/2011 13:34

springy it was my sister who put the doubts of her faith in god into my mum's head. She was dying and was scared of what might be on the other side and my sister used that to promote her own views and impose them on her. I presume a power thing. Before she became unwell she was quite strong in her own independent faith, and this was shaken, I expect quite normally when you find out you are going to die, and she did not know for sure if she had followed the right path after all. However, she still wanted her ashes scattered on the laylines at Glastonbury, which she beleived right to the end to be a powerful meeting of energies and higher something, so she was not completely over-powered in the end.

And yes she was, at the time I stopped contact with her, looking to home school the children as she beleived she would be able to educate them better herself. Her eldest has some kind of behavioural disability, not at that stage diagnosed as she refused to accept that there was something wrong, but asperges had been mentioned at least a couple of times. She flt the school just did not understand him like she did.

OP posts:
Pavlovthecat · 11/08/2011 13:40

CaptainNancy - i appreciate your offer of support, very kind of you. I beleive that she has not sealed off her past and put it in a box, as she is sending me christmas cards, but that she feels she is ostrasicing (sp) me as some form of punishment rather than that I am chosing not to make contact due to my own reasons. She has a history of doing this to family members, when they behave in a way she does not agree with, or if she is annoyed she blanks that person after leaving horrid comments on voicemail, or by letter. She used to use it as some form of I don't know, control? something. She has done this to me before, when I was younger and less strong, and we started speaking again because we missed each other (and she decided it had been long enough i guess)? She decides when to start speaking again after not talking for x amount of time.

I also agree that she is greiving. She has lost more than me to some extent as she also lost her (also toxic) dad. Yes he was mine too but only in blood. However, this behaviour outlined, is only an extension/intense version of how she always has been. If it was just grief, I could probably forgive, but feel this is an excuse.

If she had no children I would perhaps just leave her to it and hope she found a way to be happy. But the children have done nothing wrong to lose out on a family.

OP posts:
CaptainNancy · 11/08/2011 14:17

So you think she wants to continue non-contact in order to force you into capitulating, and therefore controlling the rekindling of your relationship?

Perhaps, and in which case the card each year is a test I suppose to see if you'll fall for the bait.

singforsupper · 11/08/2011 14:44

Pavlov you are an amazingly self-aware person, you are thinking very clearly about all this - don't get yourself too confused with it and go with what your instinct says.

Your OP as I read it was a post about the children and contact with them, not about your sister - you seem to fully understand her and acknowledge how she is anyway. You are being sidetracked into discussing religion etc here, which really hasn't a lot to do with it (although I know everyone's trying to help). There's no bait to fall for, I think you are way beyond falling for bait. I think you are genuinely trying to contact your niece/nephews as anyone with family tries to do. I think it is the right thing to do - as long as it's just the kids and does not involve your relationship with (I)S.

MizzyTizzy · 11/08/2011 15:35

First off...I don't think you have been unreasonable at all in your no contact decision. You were there, you know how bad things were and no-one imo goes no contact lightly.

Secondly...I would not be initiating contact with your sister just so that the cousins could build a relationship. I am no contact with my own sister and therefore the my DC's and their cousin are no contact also.

From my own experience until the cousins are adult they are more than likely mini versions of your sister - this is the reason my DC's are not in contact with their cousin...I will not allow them to be manipulated by their Aunt (my sister) or their cousin as I was manipulated.

I spent 16 years trying to ensure my niece 'saw' a different way of life compared to the one she inherited from her mother (my sister) ...it was a complete waste of my time...my niece is still a mini version of her mother.

My advice is if you make contact with your sister do it because you want your sister in your life warts and all...do not enter into it believing she will change or has changed or with any notion of 'saving' her children.

IMO you are best to wait for the cousins of your DC's to come to you in their own good time - when they realise your sister is not quite telling them the 'truth' about everything.

Making contact directly with the cousins (your nephews/nieces) outside of involving your sister is also a bad idea imo....these poor children could be in for all sorts of nonsense if she found them communicating with you away from her input.

I suppose the sum total of my advice is to do nothing and leave things as they are for now.

springydaffs · 11/08/2011 16:31

As always with any family bust-up singforsupper, there are many threads left hanging. OP is grieving her mother, whose end was fearful. OP was also sensitive that she may have offended me by her description of what her sister is into. It sounds like religion has played quite a part in the family psyche. Therefore I don't really agree that religion has nothing to do with what is going on here - it seems to have a lot to do with it, in that it is what OP's sister has hung her toxicity onto, which will, by extension, be affecting her kids.

I also think that it is a good idea to present something normal to the kids, even if it sometimes doesn't appear to bear any fruit re your neice Mizzy. It is a standard that can't be avoided and without it there is nothing to refer to should the kids start to break away from eg religious conditioning. As an adult I was in a cultish situation many years ago and the people who had taken care to present 'normality' to me were an enormous help when the brainwashing began to slip. ie they were no longer around but I remembered them, remembered their 'normal' lives and some of the things they said, and it was a tremendous encouragement to me that I was on the right track, that there was something outside of the cultish conditioning I was caught up in.

It is extremely challenging to break away from any kind of toxic conditioning, particularly if you have been schooled in it from the year dot, as OP's (and Mizzy's) nieces/nephews have been (this is so sad Sad). If your sister's kids have been denied any contact with the outside world and also home schooled (?) then they are a captive audience and will very probably mirror their parents/mother. I am a great believer though that we are born to be free and recognise freedom when we see it - maybe not at the time but somewhere along the line: it sticks, we remember it. Unfortunately, religious mania doesn't encourage self-honesty but the opposite, and it can be very frightening to start to exercise that introspective muscle. KNowing that someone out there on the planet, who is directly linked to them and doesn't live the way they do could be a vital point of contact (psychological or actual) at a later date.

I'm not encouraging you to be an exit counsellor though OP! I just think it might be an idea for you to be 'around' iyswim for your sister's kids. You never know how valuable it might be for them. As you live a long way from her this presents some pros and cons re visits would be infrequent but may be long! (argh!). As someone suggested, you could meet in between somewhere eg at an amusement park. (I hope your sister allows them to go to amusement parks...). That way it is a finite amount of time and you also won't get chance to get into the deep and meaningfuls.

MizzyTizzy · 11/08/2011 16:51

My niece knows 'we' are around springdaffs - should she need us....but I think the only time she will come to us is when she finally gets her 'enough' moment...until then we are a divided family.

I can not sacrifice my own families morals/ethics and welfare any further in order to 'support' my niece. I was there all through her childhood until she was 16....then she began to use her mothers toxic ways to abuse/belittle and intimidate my DC's...that was my 'enough' moment.

Sometimes doing the 'right' thing is at too high a cost.

springydaffs · 11/08/2011 17:16

I'm sorry to hear what happened Mizzy - must be very painful (or have been?). I agree that the cost can be too high and that there is a time you really must withdraw. It looks like you gave it your best shot, providing your neice with ample exposure to a 'normal' family/life. I'm sorry it ended up the way it did Sad

MizzyTizzy · 11/08/2011 17:38

Yes, it was painful springydaffs...but I am an optimist and as of yet the story isn't over...there is still time for my niece to turn it all around...when she emerges from the FOG. Smile

springydaffs · 11/08/2011 17:51

horrid fog too - hate all that stuff (I would, with my history). There are also a billion JWs in my extended family. I only see them when they come round the doors - my door, if you please Confused

exaggerated there a bit with the billion thing..

Great that you are positive Mizzy. Brilliant Smile

busybee1983 · 11/08/2011 18:12

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MizzyTizzy · 11/08/2011 18:20

There are a billion(Grin) Catholics in my family springy....who all seem to believe they can be as nasty as they like as long as they go to confession regularly! Confused

I'm sure that confession was designed for accidental mess ups...not ones done with forethought and purpose?!

Pavlovthecat · 12/08/2011 11:49

Sorry I was not back on yeterday, I had internet trouble.

I am going to read all the posts properly in a moment but just wanted to respond to the questions around religion.

My sister uses religion as a justification for her own behaviour that was already in existance. She has taken a view, a religious view and twisted it to meet and justify her own behaviour, she takes aspects of it that suit her and turn it so it does suit her, then acts in a way that she then says is ok because of her religion. She also uses it to justify past behaviour by saying she is born again and god has forgiven her past, whereas I for example am not yet forgiven. An example of this is that she 'lived in sin' but now that relationship is over and she is in a new one approved by god, she has been forgiven, but I have not been. Yet, because god has not chosen me. It is an excuse for her to be absolved of terrible behaviour IMO.

So, while I do think that the religion has some role to play in my concerns, in how it affected my mum before she died. It is not my real concern. If my sister stopped being part of her 'religion' she was continue to behave abbhorantly I suspect. The behaviour was already there. I do not consider that the church has poisoned her, or been toxic for her. She has chosen it as an outlet for how she is.

Hope that makes sense.

I also want to thank all of you for helping me talk about this and giving me some different views and helping me clarify how I feel about things, a lot of you have been able to put into words how I feel but could not do myself. I think, well that I have a lot more considering to do before I am ready to make contact, if I ever am. The more I have talked about this on this thread the more i realise I still dislike my sister, and am more understanding of the level of control she has placed the family under for years. I am very very lucky that I have some very good family members (my other siblings I get on fine with but not close) in my DHs side, and some wonderful friends who are my family and family to my children, I do not need to make it more complicated for the children, they have love around them, maybe that is enough.

Sometimes, you need to write it all down to make sense of it don't you?

OP posts:
singforsupper · 12/08/2011 12:09

Keeping your distance does make a lot of sense, but it worries me that she has children when she is clearly delusional.

I hope you can keep a distanced eye on them if you can, without getting involved with sister.

Best of luck x

springydaffs · 12/08/2011 12:47

I had a friend who got taken in by a charmer (aka an abuser) and she was so thick with him she couldn't see the harm he was doing to her kids. I was very distressed that her kids were being exposed to this monster, their mother complicit, that I resolved to hang around, even though I couldn't exactly hide my views (ahem [blush), clearly stating that this guy was bad news. It became immediately clear that I wasn't welcome around my friend and I had a look to see who was in the family's life. Turns out there were some very good friends who were as concerned as me about the children - also our friend of course but mainly the children - and had managed to keep their mouths shut about the horrible man, so were welcome in said friend's immediate circle. I was reassured that there were enough people around to keep an eye on the kids and to represent stability for the kids, and felt it was ok to step away.

These days though, I would have reported the family to ss - there were enough specific incidences I could report. At the time, reporting to ss wasn't done and I do wonder what happened to those kids Sad.

It sounds awful to suggest someone needs to keep an eye on your sister's kids but maybe you could cast around Pavlov to see who is available in their lives. Especially as they are so thick in the cultish fundamentalist church, by the sound of it, and your family sounds quite scattered now your mum has gone. If (?) they are not attending a mainstream school then how much normality/monitoring do they get?

busybee1983 · 13/08/2011 08:45

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