Is this the right thing to do?

[lou33]

This may be long, sorry in advance.

My father left home when I was 7. I saw him once more when I was 9 and that was it. My mum struggled to bring three of us up alone, and without his help, and our life was very hard for a long time. I used to write him letters asking to see him, and he would reply saying I could only meet him with his new gf, which I didn't want to do, so he refused to meet. He would also write very hurtful letters to me about the rest of my family, and it would upset me a lot. The last time I heard from him was when my oldest was born over 11 years ago. He was very aggressive, and I changed my phone number to avoid him (he had been given it without my permission).

Anyway my mum died in 1999, and when he found out he kicked up the biggest fuss about not being told or invited apparently, but since then he has been very quiet. My brother met him a few years ago, but didn't get on with him btw.

However my sister called round yesterday saying she was going to visit him this weekend with her husband and children. It seems that quite a few years ago he got in touch with her via where her dh worked. He told her and she said to throw the letter away, but he kept it, and over the years on and off he has asked her if she was sure she didn't want to make contact, as he is an old man now (in his 70's). He recently gave her this letter which she read, and has decided that she needs to see him to let him know she does not hate him, as he seems to think. She came to ask me if it was ok to talk about me, dh and kids, and if I wanted to send him some pictures. I read the letter and he does seem genuinely remorseful for the way he treated us.

The thing is I still keep remembering how I felt as a child when he did all those things, when he walked right past me in the street without acknowledging me, when he tried to get soliciotrs to take our furniture for him, when he cleared the bank account out and took mum's name off it so she didn't have any access to money etc. I am not angry with him now, but keep thinking back iyswim. In fact tbh if he did die now I wouldn't be all that bothered. I mean I would probably feel a pang, but then my life would go on as normal , he is a stranger to me now.

My sister filled me in a bit about his life yesterday, things I was unaware of, and I can see a bit clearer how things ended as they did, although not an excuse for his behaviour.

I spooke to dh about it quite a bit last night and he thinks we should send some pictures. He said if his mum had ever written a letter apologising to him he would forgive her everything, and I can see his point. But the letter was not written to me but my sister. It is an apology to her specifically.

He's an old man and not well from what I hear, so giving him pictures would probably have an impact on his life but not mine I think, or am I wrong? Would this mean he would think I wanted a relationship with him again, which I don't? Like my sister I don't want him thinking I hate him, because I don't ,and I don't want it on my conscience when he dies that he thought that way.

So to sum up, is giving photos going to make things more complicated ? Advice please!

Hi Lou sorry to hear this as I suspect this has dug up all the old feelings and resentments.
But in answer to your question about the photographs, if you really want to send them why dont you include a letter in there aswell for your father. Include all your feelings good and bad and what you want for the future in this letter. He can then take it from there.
HTH
hugs
xxx

lou33... reading your posting just makes me feel very emotional but I'm glad I got to the end. I think YOU and ONLY YOU can do what you feel you want to do. At first I felt no let him go on without knowing anything more about you and your life plus a whole lot more mixed in with massive anger. I don't want to cloud your thoughts and I think your DH and sister are probably the best ones to help you out right now. I think you sound a really really good person to say you don't hate him and for you I am really glad you have been able to get to that stage. As you say the letter was sent to your sister, maybe he wasn't as dispicable to her as he was to you. I think only you in the end, can decide what you want to do. Maybe, I imagine you are thinking this yourself, he feels he can't approach you yet so maybe see how it goes with your sister seeing him first then you could take the next step if it seems he wants to make ammends/know something of you now. Whatever you decide, I wish you the very best.

Oh Lou, I really feel for you. I think if you can make some kind of peace with him it may make you all feel a bit happier about a very sad situation. Not that making your peace will be easy necessarily but I suppose I think maybe there's some middle ground between ignoring him/never speaking to him again and having a 'proper' relationship with him. Maybe he hasn't written an apology to you specifically because he tried with your sister and got no reaction? Well, not until now anyway if I've understood the sequence of events correctly. Sending some photos doesn't mean you have to forgive him and it doesn't negate the hurt he's caused you in the past but it couldn't do any harm either could it? I suppose you have to think about what happens after that. Do you want to speak to him? See him? Tell him how he made you feel? Get an apology or understanding? If not, you could always make this clear to him via your sister. It's a sad and painful situation to be in - let us know what you decide and how it goes.

Thanks for so many quick replies. I'll try and answer all questions, but sorry if I miss any out.

When he made contact with me 11 years ago, I wrote a letter to him via his brother (who had goven him the phone number). In it I said that if he was genuinely trying to make a reconciliation then he woudl not have attacked me on the phone in the way he did. I pointed out to him that I was 7 years old when he left, and as the adult it was his responsibility to keep in touch , not the other way around. I told him how hurtful it was for me to think my daddy chose a woman over his own daughter (re: only seeing me with her around), and basically unleashed all the years of resentment , but in a calm way, so he knows how I feel. His reply was that I was a nasty bitch.

Without wishing to reveal too much about myself or my family, my bil is very well known,my father saw him on tv and sent the letter via that way, knowing it would be passed on. He still doesn't know where my sister lives. I have a great suspicion too that the real reason is more to do with celebrity by association , or that he wants her to provide for him.

Having said that he was always closest to my sister. My brother didn't have a relationship, because soon after he was born , my father had to go away with the army. When he came back there was a huge bond between him and my mum, that my father as not allowed to be included in (according to my sister). Mum was over protective of him, wouldn't let him go and do "boy" things with my father etc. When my sister was born she became his tomboy, they did loads together all the time. When I was born and I was epileptic, it sent mum into a complete frenzy of panic and over protection again. Noone, not even my dad was allowed to take me anywhere without her because she was worried in case anything happened. My sister used to beg her to take me out to play but was always told no (she's 6 years older than me).
Then when he left, my brother was an adult really, at 17, my sister was 13 and I was 7. I was an easy target to try and manipulate my emotions I suppose, but it only served to make me (at the time) hate him for sending me these poisonous letters. It didn't help that we were not allowed to mention him at all at home, and even though I was desperate to see him, I couldn't tell mum for fear of hurting her, and couldn't tell him because he wouldn't see me.

Also I better add that although they were together for 19 years before they split, he had actually been unfaithful right from the start, and the atmosphere imo when he was around was never good, my mum was miserable, I remember arguments about other women, and when he did finally leave I was the one whocame home form school (latchkey kid lol) and found his note.

It has also been suggested that my mum indirectly died as a result of his infidelity, She died of cervical cancer and he was her only partner until she had been in remission from it and it came back again. He however had many women during their marriage, one only 16 years old.

I probably will send some photos of the kids, but am not too sure about including me or dh. Still feel very wary though. He's an uneducated man who came from a terribly abused past, then went straight into the army, got to boss people around, then at the age of 45 he was out of the army and a nobody, being ordered around like the men he used to yell at. He gets angry as a form of defence and because he is unable to vocalise his feelings, I know that, but even so he isn't a nice man. He is also supposed to have said that when my mum died it made him realise what he threw away and she was the best thing in his life. His 2 later wives were supposedly carbon copies of her.

Could probably write for hours, but that would ensure you had all fallen asleep and be unable to reply, so I'll stop there.

Thanks all. Any other advice is always appreciated.

I don't really get on with my dad either. Parents unhappily married, dad more than a bit odd (think now he is Aspergers, TBH, he's an avid collector of 'rubbish' - antique pepperpots at the moment - doesn't listen when you talk - you can actually go away and have a cup of tea while he's on the phone and he doesn't even notice - hopeless with people, baffled by emotion and asks, 'why's he doing that?' when ds cries) But I have tried to maintain a very distant relationship with him because he's old and might die. He comes for lunch and sees ds once every few months. I suppose it's my insurance against guilt (not that you or I should feel any guilt at all, of course). I still feel slightly oppressed by having him in my life, but I do email him pix of ds and see him from time to time. I think you have to do what will make you feel most comfortable. You don't 'owe' him anything, but if you think you would feel vaguely guilty or unhappy for not sending pix, then do it. If you think the 'burden' of having a relationship with him would outweight anything else, then don't. BTW I do know what you mean by 'fame by association'. I think my father is thrilled that his daughter has her name in the paper and it makes him keener to know me.

Thanks Aloha. Geographically he lives miles away, so I wouldn't feel obliged to have him visit etc, so that helps. Dh has said in the past I should make contact before my father dies, or else I could be filled with regret, but I am still in two minds. I don't think I have anything to gain from it, but it might make the last few years he has a bit happier, and everyone deserves to be happy at the end don't they? He wasn't a good father by any stretch of the imagination (to me at least) but he could've been a lot worse. I don't remember ever being hit by him, for example.

I think I might have posted a bit too freely, reading my other posts, but hopefully anyone who recognises me would know my history anyway.

I dont know what I would do lou, I really feel for you. I have had no contact with my dad either for 12 months (tommorrow to be exact because it was ds' birthday). My father is incredibly selfish too, power crazed and materialistic. He was unfaithful to my mother all there married life and when they were divorced his whole family disowned me(?). He did used to visit me every few months but it was always on his terms. I know if my father was to ask for photos of my children I wouldnt send them. Well maybe I would because I always feel incredibly guilty about things as if somehow they are my fault. I think you are a different person to him and maybe if you did send photos it would make you feel as if you had put certain things aside even though you dont want a relationship with him. I know exactly what you mean about not hating him, I love my dad but I just dont like him.

Sorry I have just waffled on about me I suppose but I know how you must feel. It is very complicated either way really. Would your sister be upset if you didnt send photos of the kids?

sent you a long email as the post was too long for the thread I think

Thanks Fio. Does it sound awful if I say I don't even love him? It does, but it's true. I just don't want an old man with blood clots on his lungs to think I hate him that's all. I'm searching for photographic paper in a minute to print off some snaps, but I still don't feel entirely right about it. Should I put details of the kids on the back do you think? Like their ages? My sister is useless at remembering things like that.

Eidsvold, it hasn't arrived yet, so I will reply as soon as it does. Thanks very much.

It doesnt sound awful at all lou Its up to you whether you put the kids names and ages on, what do you think seems right?

Lou33, lots of wonderful sharing and advice on this thread as always. You could NEVER bore me. When we face mortality, strange things really happen. Lots of possibilities have been mentioned both by you and others on the thread for why (the motivation) your father may or may not want to connect with you and what the connecting has been like in the past. Your parent's relationship was complex (I have much family history of my own that I have not spilled yet onto the site) and the inside of their relationship is something that you might never be able to understand. You only have your perspective of what happened and logically, of course, how it effected you. The way that you describe having a loyal allegence to your Mom as she was the one "left" with the responsibilities as the Mom, etc, (hope I am saying this the right way, I don't want to offend--I heard in your post that you never wanted to hurt her that was the main thing) and the way you mention that many others feel that your Dad was responsible for her death are very heavy burdens.

I know this is a very long post and I apologize. Something for thought, if there is any learning here for your children, it makes logical sense to take the step to include him in your life though photos or phone calls or a physical visit (after you can judge along with your sister how this visit went). His relationship with your children (as a grandpa) might be very different then it was with you, he might be different now...it is so very painful I am sure. If it were me, I would make my best effort to see what benefit this could bring to my family. If you could possibly come to peace with this, you might find that the healing that goes along with it will make you more accessable to you children if you are witholding anywhere because of your "hurt". Please don't take that the wrong way, OK? I don't know you well at all and I am not judgingall I do know is that when I address a painful experience from my past, I find myself to be more peaceful and that tends to change the quality of my relationships. I am not an expert, not a professional by any means. I have recently lost my father and the finality is so, so quietnothing else to be resolved now. I don't say this to motivate you into inviting him into your life if it would be painful or negative for anyone--you might find it to be healing.

You are worthy and lovable Lou33 and you know that today. He seems to be a weak man from the things brought out in your posts. Maybe this is terrible to say, but, I wouldn't be surprised if he had mood swings which would push him to infidelity much like someone drinks to excess to escape reality. He needed very much to be sexy and admired and wanted by women if these traits came on early in their marriage (this would have had NOTHING to do with your Mom--clearly his problem). The fact that he wouldn't see you without his GF, was the GF so insecure that he would love you more than her? Was he so afraid of you that he had to have his GF with him? Calling you a bitch is just a knee-jerk reaction, he probably felt like such a piece of crap himself and didn't know any way to feel better other than putting you down. If he grew up with this kind of disfunction in his own home, he will just carry it on with anyone he is relating too (not just to hurt you I mean).

You also mention that he was abused, I don't know in which ways--but he might not even be capable (or wasn't then) of having a loving, healthy relationship. Your parents had something really great in the beginning, that is the part of your Dad that would be the best thing to tap into today, if it is possible. I hope I don't sound preachy, don't mean to be Lou33. It is your decision and you will make the best decison and the one that is best for your health first and then the health of your family. I hope it all works out the way that you want it to. I wish you peace in making the decision.

Hi Lou

My dh hadnt seen his father for 13 years because of something that happened and the first time he saw him again following that was when he had a heart attack. We live over 250 miles away from my FIL so of course my DH was worried that he wouldnt get there in time to see him before he died. As it happened he did and FIL is better..for now. The point is that no matter what has happened in the past he is your father and (sorry not trying to lecture just give you a perspective on this) what you have to think in your own head is how would you feel if something did happen to him and you hadnt seen him.

Good luck with whatever you decide as I dont doubt this is a really difficult decision for you.

Take care x

When my dad had a heart attack & I thought he might die, I was absolutely distraught. And I wouldn't say I love him either. But I did once. I think that's the bit that was so distraught. Odd how your emotions can hijack you.

Fio, I don't know that's whay I asked you!!

Sunchowder, thank you for taking the time to write such a lovely post You make many points I agree with, in fact my sister and I said similar things yesterday, esp re the kneejerk reaction to the way he is feeling, and his need for attention to make him feel worthy. The amazing thing is that today ds1 started asking about grandparents (what are they), and he asked who his were. Well they don't really have any. There are some alive, but none i count as gp's, and the odd thing is that despite all this talk recently it didn't even occur to me that my father was their Grandfather! Dh has a mad mother who caused me to have a stand up row with her this summer at Gatwick airport, and ban her from seeing the kids ever again, and he has a father who left aforementioned mad mil years ago, but lives many miles away and has problems accepting that he is old enough to have a son of 41, let alone grandchildren. Having said that he is a lovely man and is v good with the kids when he sees them, but that is only once a year or less.

3girlsmum, you aren't lecturing. He is my father yes, and I have had the same discussion with dh before about what if my father died having never seen me again, And honestly it didn't bother me. I'm starting to wonder where my heart is , lol. I feel if I do this it will be for his sake not mine, more like a priest absolving him of his past sins so to speak. Unfortunately I don't know if I have the capability to do that. Should it be up to me to forgive or should he just forgive himself?

Aloha, you do make a very valid point though about emotions hijacking you. I guess it is connected to 3gm's comment about what if he did die? I can only guessing at how I would feel, and may be completely taken aback at the strength of my emotions.

It's all food for thought and I appreciate every single comment so much. This is when the true spirit of mumsnet comes out I think.

Eidsvold your email still hasn't arrived. Did you send it to my normal one or via contact another talker?

So glad you appreciated Lou33, maybe your DS asking about his Grandparents was your "sign" so- to-speak to give it a go. Who knows? I think photos would be lovely with info on each of the kids and some artwork that has been made by them "to grandpa" might be very soothing for him and make him feel worthwhile. He should be capable of forgiving himself, but he has been so "damaged" from his life experiences that he might need your help to do this, meaning you giving him permission to forgive himself.

I know that you will do the right thing--you will follow your heart, that part of you right in the middle that if you can get quiet enough and stop all the chatter, always knows what to do.

Wonderful posts from everyone.

I haven't told the kids about all this yet, I wanted to have time to think things through first. If it goes ok then maybe I will send him some stuff at a later date. I will print this off I think, for dh to read, it's full of lovely comments and advice.

Sorry lou I wasnt much help was I? I suppose what I really wanted to write was does he deserve this much? you are already sending him photos maybe that is enough from your part and if he wants to knoe more he could ask your sister (although she has an awful memory!), and I feel really horrible writing that down.

By the way your FIL sounds like my Dad he insists he is 'too old' to be a grandad - he has 3 kids younger than my two. But although I feel sad that my Dad doesnt care enough to see them or even phone to see how they are, I also feel that it his is loss - he may not live to see any of his other children produce. I sound bitter dont I?

You don't sound bitter Fio, you just sound matter of fact about it, like I am.

Fil is a really nice bloke, and brilliant with the kids when he sees them, it's just that he doesn't really, he lives in Cornwall and we live in Surrey. He's a surfer/hippy/artist , and I guess being a grandad makes him feel old in comparison to the lifestyle he leads.

Anyway, I have printed off some pictures of the kids, and managed to take one of myself that wasn't too horrendous. I've just put the names of the kids on the back with their ages, I think that is plenty of info for now. I'm dropping them round later to my sister. Then I will wait for the fallout on Monday when she is back.

Thanks everyone for replying and helping me through this. I find it really touching that you are all so willing to support me, even though we have never met.

Eidsvold, the email still hasnt come in, so I will mail you from another address and you can attach it to that if you still want to. Would love to read it.

Lou, agree that this is your decision. Only you can make it.

If the shoe was on my foot I would have no contact with him. My father was an awful man, truly a terrible husband and father. I last saw him when I was 12. I would NEVER ever want to have further contact with him. IMO too many people are 'forgiven' because they are old. For instance you write ..." I just don't want an old man with blood clots on his lungs to think I hate him that's all". That 'old man' is still the same person who made you feel so terrible when you were just a little girl. Perhaps I am giving entirely biased opinions here but there we go.

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I understand what you are saying WSM. I don't want him to hate me because I don't want him to have any feelings about me. Being old is definitely not a reason to forgive as such, but as I get older what he did matters less and less. I am a better person for him leaving, if that makes sense?

Twinkie, I am not ready to see him yet, I don't know if I ever will be, but I am sending pictures, which is a big thing for me, because I am very guarded with my children. Your comment about grief is very accurate though.

Message withdrawn

have re sent it to the other address Lou - had school open evening last night with a parent meeting between school finishing and open evening starting and did not get in until almost 10pm last night absolutely shattered. So sorry I did not get to it last night.

Whatever you decide remember it is the best decision for you at this time. Later on - who knows.....

Well here's an update.

Sister came back yesterday, and I have just been able to talk to her today. She said if she had been able to get the next flight back on Friday she would have, but she had brought her kids and dh to meet him on the Saturday. She met him alone for Friday, and said it was like meeting someone at a wedding, that you used to see a lot of, but have nothing in common anymore. He was withdrawn and quiet, brought his gf along (seems to be a gf theme with him) who was apparantly nice, and saved awkward silences with her chattiness.

From what I can gauge, he looked briefly at my pics, said thanks and that was it. No note from him, nothing else. Don't know what else I expected really. I should have left things as they were in the first place. My relationship with him was always different to him and my sister.