DH has no friends

[MrsBillyNoMates]

I've changed my name for this but am a regular MNer.

DH works in a very male oriented environment but hasn't made one single friend. He's never invited to any work do's - not even the Christmas drink - and spends his breaks on his own while everyone else goes to the pub.

I know he's miserable but he won't admit it and he tries to make out it's not as bad as it is.

He's never been good at making friends and doesn't have any friends outside of work either. He was bullied at school and I think he has maintained insecurities from back then. He is very sensitive and gets on his high horse about things if he thinks someone is taking the mickey out of him. I know they probably are but being pompous (sp) is giving them more reason to think he's a bit of a pratt and the banter never ends.

He's not good at socialising with my friends either and can be a bit arse-lickey with my friends husbands. I find it very embarrassing but I love him so mostly I just find it painful to see him trying so hard and dying on his arse.

I don't know what to do to help him with this. I know he wants to have friends but has no idea how to make them. We have a wedding in January and I'm ashamed of myself for asking the bride to rearrange the seating at the meal so that we wouldn't be sitting next to other youngish people. The last time we went out socially he got so nervous that he knocked a bottle of wine over and almost soaked a girl. He will re-tell the most boring stories to people and alot of the time they just interruupt up or sometimes they even walk away. He will ask me why people never seem to listen to him. How can I say 'because you are boring them'.

Oh God, does anyone have any constructive advice? Please don't take the piss though.

i just told my dh that i recomended the bane of my life to your husband. he said if you CAT me, i will then give you my DH's e-mail and he will gladly talk your DH through it ( OH MY GOD!) bores unite.

thats it now - you can forever say phrases like - "well if i'm not good enough talk to your F*kin orcs and wizards then!!"

that might just be me.

so CAT me and i will pass my DH's e-mail on to your DH for the online game utopia

I agree with changing jobs, sounds like he works for a bunch of arseholes anyway!

I personally WOULD tell my dh what not to say. I'd expect him to do teh same too. I'd hate to think that he knew I was making a tit of myself and just not telling me. You can only change once you know what to change.

Could he join a gym? Loads of people join on their own. Or attend a nightclass. Not only will a nightclass boost his self-esteem and self-worth, but it leads to a qualification and perhaps a better job, and because he will be meeting others who don't know each other, they'll all be in the same boat and so it's easier to make friends when you're all on an even footing.

I would suggest that he go to classes to get a qualification and a better job. If you put it like that he's more likely to go.

And I would turn up at his work one day, dressed sexily but without trying too hard, iykwim, make sure that you make heads turn, then give him a great big smacker. Show them (and him) what a beautiful wife he has!

Thanks everyone. Loads of good suggestions and no piss taking.

I feel I owe it to DH to give a bit of background on him - so sorry if this is a bit boring.

My IL's are a very religious family - not mainstream religion but similar to a cult. There was no TV when he was growing up, no books (except the Bible), friends wern't allowed round and the only socialising allowed was at church on Sundays with their type of people. The family were encouraged by the church leaders to cut off everyone and everything that connected them to real life to avoid temptations. I won't say the name of the religion because I don't want to be recognised but it's very similar to Amish, with community being the most important thing. Great if there is a community but not so great if you live on a Council Estate and have the piss taken out of you everyday and get the shit kicked out of you because they know you won't retaliate.

DH was 23 when we met and still living at home with his parents. Church was still his only social life but he has a job and was thought well of by his colleagues. I'm sure they took the piss a bit behind his back but everyone had good things to say about him because they knew the real him - a thoroughly decent bloke. His church didn't want him to be with me (and I didn't want to go anyway) so he left them and we got married and had a family.

The problems with socialising started when he changed jobs after leaving his church. He was so embarrassed that he had no experiences compared to the rest of the people and was desperate for them not to know about his past. It's surprising how often the past comes up in conversation and you can't always pretend that you were out of the country or ill when something happened. It's every day things like songs on the radio that we all know and clubs that we've all been to (everyone in our area anyway). He is so desperate not to be the religious sensible one anymore that he'll say stupid things instead of just admitting the truth.

We have problems with debt and DD2 has autism, so all in all he doesn't feel like he's done a great job with his life. He blames himself for the autism and thinks he has it to. He doesn't IMO he's just inexperienced in life.

Anyway that's the background on how he's ended up being all on his own. I feel so bad about all this.

Hub - great to get a male perspective on this. I have been quite honest with him before, but it tears me apart to see him so defeated. I will try again though. I'm not sure if he'd go for sports but I'll have a think about other things that might interest him. Liking the keyword idea lots . He tends to arselick (God, that's such an awful thing to say about anyone) when he's trying to make a friend and then when he's realsied that the person is finding him overbearing thinking that he's extremely needy he changes tack and starts trying to belittle people. It just comes across so immature. I wish that he was comfortable with himself and proud of his achievements, but he's not.

Myrrcy - he says it doesn't bother him but I know it does. I wouldn't say that he's a natural loner at all. He's always asking me to invite friends round but I avoid doing it because of the way he acts, which isn't helping him.

Merryberry - I'm going to look that book up. Thank you

Custy - pmsl. How lovely of you to speak to your DH. I will deffo CAT you. Thanks so much

Cliff - how sweet that you think I'm a hot woman. I've imagined myself getting all dolled up and doing exactly what you said loads of times. Thinking to myself they'll all be talking about DH the next day and saying 'Corrr, did you see his missus, he must be an undercover stud to get a woman like her. Respect'. Trouble is I'm a frumpy fat minger so I'm more likely to cause huge embarrassment to him and they'll take the piss even more. But in my younger days...

Still open to more suggestions if anyone has them. Books, assertiveness courses, night classes etc. I'm going to give it my best shot next year - can't handle it before Christmas. We are going to go out more as a couple and invite other couples to us. I am going to be straght with him about why he gets a bad reaction from people but I'm going to try to put it in a constructive way for him and do it bit by bit. Before now it has been me trying to be gentle but probably making him feel like shit because I haven't told him what he should have said/done instead.

SheepGoMeep - Sorry to hear you're in the same boat as me. You and DH have my sympathies.

I tell you what, MrsB. No matter how socially inept your dh can be, his workmates sound like really vile, nasty, horrible, unkind [insert most unspeakable swear word you know]s. I am honestly dumbfounded and discombobulatedly surprised that a group of adult people could be so mean as to exclude any colleague from a works Christmas do. There really is absolutely no excuse for this kind of nastiness, frankly. Good grief. It makes me feel so and for your husband. It really does. To be quite honest I don't think he has a hope in hell of winning people like that round, no matter how full of confidence and social grace he becomes. Sorry- I expect this rant is not very helpful but I think he should be looking urgently at finding a new job. Hub2dee's and custardo's ideas do sound good. Structured activities could be great for him. How about having a couple over for Sunday lunch and sending the men down the pub togther while you cook or vice versa (latter would be my preference!)? Or if you don't drink maybe sending the blokes and kids to local playground so they could chat while doing something (ie looking out for the bairns) which dh might find a bit easier?

to me it really sounds like the problem lies with his workmates and not him. i worked with 40 men (ever changing, for 8 years) and never saw anything like this...i mean, oh yes they could be bitches. (we used to joke that they were worse than women) but i never saw anything like this. even the men they "picked on" they were actually quite fond of. we had an (for want of a better phrase) office nerd. they all would take the piss but everyone liked him and it was harmless teasing, he was never left out of anything.

i dont think its his problem and its prob not what you want to hear but it sounds like whatever he does now wont change a thing. what an awful place to work. he doesnt need to suck up to them, they sound like a bunch of tossers. im sorry, i dont have any advice but that he needs to get out of there and work somewhere he can be happy. he needs to know that not all workplaces are like this.

Hi MrsBNM... a couple of points:

I wonder if dh needs to work through some elements of how he feels about his upbringing with a counsellor. Quite possibly he feels v. angry and disappointed about the decision (by his parents) to raise him in such a defined / controlling manner IYSWIM (as evidenced perhaps by the feelings re dd2's autism). I could well imagine this anger, and the feelings of inadequacy generated by not being 'normal' or 'good' in social situations upset him, and, even if during examples of poor social interaction he's not thinking clearly about what he is saying / doing (and how it might appear to the other person), I imagine afterwards he might dissect things and think 'why t f did I say / do that ?' and feel miserable.

One other idea might be for you to help dh find a way to refer to the past - communicate to the third party something of his history - which plants a seed of 'wow, that's a bit unreal' (as well as an internalised 'hmmm, is that why he seems a bit odd') IYSWIM... a few carefully worked out phrases along the lines of 'I was brought up in a weird religious group so couldn't get out much as a kid, but now I've left it that nightclub / hit record / restaurant sounds nice shall we go there / who made it, in what year etc. etc.'... or 'I was brought up a strict pacifist, so I spent my youth getting beaten up by nutters who thought it was a laugh. Sorry if I overstepped the mark and was rude last night' etc. etc. etc.

Not sure I'm making myself very clear here, or presenting my point well, nor, of course do I know if that is how dh feels... but if someone I met admiited they had been raised in a cult but had got out, that in itself would be a great conversation piece and would doubtless explain a few personal oddities I felt I observed. It would also give me the chance to think (after the party / work meeting etc. 'oh, so that's why he's a bit boring or quiet or turns rude when frustrated etc. etc. etc.')

Finally, re the 'quite' honest that you've been before (LOL), I think it's only fair to honour your love for him with total honesty, however hard it is, because in the end your dh will continue to hurt others, and be hurt himself if you don't, and he fails to change. Quite possibly, his biggest achievement (and the most incredible conversation piece !) is staring you in the face, but you're (both) too close to see it ! If I had gone through the trauma of leaving a similar group I'd be milking it for all it's worth, LOL.

(BTW - these comments don't detract from the fact he sounds like he's surrounded by bullies / ar*eholes)

I haven't read the whole thread, just your original post... I wanted to say that my DH was like that - what it took in the end was to find him an activity where he could meet similar people. He has never gotten on desperately well with workmates, and my BF's DH is so quiet that they cancel eachother out with their silence!! They like eachother, but don't have anything much in common.

In the end, he started playing online games (works for him, but yours might be happier with sport etc...) - he made local friends doing it, and he goes out with them most weeks, they come round to play together, and at last he has a group of like minded friends.

i would breifly bring it up and then leave a book in the bathroom (my dp only ever reads if i leave it in the bathroom!) maybe then he could get some ideas and when reads he's not the only person to have these issues he might be more willing to talk about it and try to change the way he acts. just an idea. good luck

What I would do is arrange for us to meet up with a friend and her partner, neither of whom he's met before and do something like bowling, or if they've got kids too, go to a farm or theme park, rather than to a pub or for a meal, which relies more on conversation. It might help for him to be around new people who have never met him before and therefore wouldn't have any preconceptions about his shyness so he can, if he wants to, almost re-invent himself whilst having the security of, for example, the kids or activity as a distraction if necessary.

I wish you both luck.

I suppose another thing to think about/discuss with dh is whether he actually wants to make close friends. Is it you or him who most wants this change? IMO some people really can and do plod along quite happily with only a very few social connections. Perhaps the social intensity of family life is enough for dh right now? If that is a possibility, maybe thinking about how you can maintain a good social life outside the family for yourself and also accept dh's situation without feeling you need to "fix" him wlould be a good way to go. Sounds from your posts like he is yearning for friends but might be worth checking because sometimes I think more sociable people can project their own feelings onto less socaible folk and feel terribly sorry for them unnecessarily. (I've done this before so may be projecting onto you in my turn!)

MrsBNM, has he thought of doing any volunteering? - for a Christmas soup kitchen, or doing St. John Ambulance, something like that? The differences between those sorts of interests and night-classes etc. are that (a) you can pretty much rely on the other people doing those things to be the accepting, kind sort; and (b) he's less likely to feel exposed and nervous - ie, because he's there to help other people, they/the project comes first, and that sort of objective purpose can be a real support if you're feeling shy and awkward!

here and here are some conversational tips on the internet.

What he can do is to remember that everyone's favourite subject is themselves, so ask them about themselves but to be careful not to interrogate.

Find familar ground, everyone has something in common, whether it be that they are parents, live in the same area or watch the same TV programmes, you can ask them about these things and then mention that you enjoy doing so and so too, or that your dd/ds used to do that too.

Remind him to give that person time to speak, never interrupt. Maintain eye contact so they feel they are being listened to.

Imagine what you are going to say printed in your head, then edit it before you say it. Never say anything just because you feel that you have to, or because you are nervous. Silence is far less embarrassing than if you drop a clanger.

What you can do to help is to praise him when he says something well or puts a good point across, to boost him. Like "I thought you said that really well" or "That was a brilliant point you made there!" and when he flops, just gently point out where he went wrong; "I think perhaps you've told that story before" or "you drifted off a bit there".

Really hope things buck up for him soon.

Blimey Mrs BNM - that's absolutely fascinating re yuor dh's background. I think hub2dee is right, it does seem if some sort of counselling would be helpful. Are there organisations which help people who have left 'cults'?

MrsBNM, you know, socialising with work colleagues is a minefield at the best of times. I dont think he needs to feel any obligation to go out with them. Agree with other people who say that a change of job might improve things.

I think your dh needs to discuss a lot of things, maybe with a professional counsellor. He hasn't got no background - he has got a decent background that he doesnt need to be ashamed of. Anyone who thinks he is inferior because of it, is just sad.

Hobbies are a good way for him to make friends. My father was also bullied at school, no friends etc, and he only managed to make friends with people who had similar interests to him.

I think that total honesty from someone who loves a person is the best way for that person to change. But it does require considerable courage.

Thanks for your input everyone. Wanted to reply to this sooner but haven't been online much this weekend.

Hub - Everything you say makes sense. He can't keep denying the past as he has been doing. I've heard him be quite rude to people who have asked questions about his upbringing (e.g my family, who know a few details, and are genuinely interested) and he needs to stop doing this. I think he needs counselling but I don't think he'd do it at the moment.

Cliff - thanks for the links. I'll have a look at them now.

Mrs BNM xx

I know the religion you are talking about and used to know a couple who were thrown out of it once they married. It was a strange set up and I can very clearly see how this has affected your DH.

Hub2dee has given some great advice IMO. All I can add is that he needs to get out of this job he's in - he's got no chance of improving his self esteem if he's facing that battle with his colleagues on a dialy basis. What a hideous bunch of people to work with.

I grew up without a TV (other than that a fairly normal childhood) and that was hard enough in terms of feeling isolated/different, how much harder for your dh!

When I was originally reading this thread, I was thinking of my friend's boyf who is very, very shy, very geeky, has next to no friends, and was thinking of advice along those lines. But, I realise this is an entirely different case and your dh isn't necessarily anything like that. My friend's boyf doesn't care, and doesn't want to be sociable, he's just one of those loners. But your dh sounds like he does want to be sociable, is even desperate to be hence all the blunders, and it's his own attitude to his upbringing that is holding him back. So my two penn'orth is:

a) He definitely, definitely could do with counselling (and/or assertiveness training) so that HE accepts and understands his upbringing and therefore has no problem communicating about it to other people. It sounds like he gets defensive or insecure about it instead of being honest and as someone already said, it's a conversation piece in itself and people would be fascinated rather than bemused by him. Of course while he is uncomfortable about his past himself he doesn't like questions, but if he was comfortable, it would help him enormously. I think this is the big key to what's going on. Others are saying his workmates are a*seholes - which I agree, they certainly are - but to a certain extent your dh could be in control of how others see him instead of, as you say, putting on an act all the time thereby opening himself up to more ridicule.

b) I agree with others that he's not in the right workplace. It sounds as if he did all right in his previous job, but only because he was working on his own, which isn't necessarily a good thing either. Somebody suggested volunteering etc - perhaps actually a job in that kind of accepting/kind atmosphere would help? Of course I don't know what kind of employment he is in/can do...

Just re-read my post and it sounds harsher than I meant it to be re his workmates. I didn't mean it to sound like your dh's fault, I just meant that if he was comfortable in his own skin, it would register with others and I believe - though perhaps not where he works now! - would perhaps prevent others from ridiculing him.

Hope that makes sense.

This thread has upset me rather, as my DH has similar social problems (although not as serious I don't think)
However, he's much much better now. This is because his depression was eventually properly addressed and diagnosed as OCD; he underwent a course of Cognitive Behavhioural Therapy (CBT) with a counsellor. I agree that counselling would probably help him, but obviously he needs to agree to this himself. The CBT was really useful to DH because it teaches you to challenge your thoughts and behaviour,and learn ways to counteract your normal destructive habits. Primarily the CBT was addressing DH's OCD (which for him was obsessional thoughts) but it also helped him with his social skils, as his lack of these was one of the sources of his depression (and I wasn't inviting him out to things as it was so painful watching him). He used to do stupid things to cover up his nervousness too and it was just awful witnessing it.
With your DH, his upbringing sounds like it is at the root of many of his problems, and at this stage the only way for him to address that is methodically with some sort of counsellor. I can't tell you which, but maybe you could encourage him to go to some sort of counsellor/CB therapist to see what they think, even if you need to pay for this.
Also with DH, he and I needed to accept that going to the pub and joining in with the whole male bonhomie thing just isn't his scene, and there's no reason why it should be either. DH doesn't like sport or ogling women, and he never will. If your DH does want to go to the pub and on the outings, that's different, but maybe he needs to address what he does actually like doing, not just do things because he feels he ought to.
None of this takes away from the fact that it sounds like he is actually being bullied at work, which might need to be looked at separately.
I've rambled on a lot here, but I really feel for you because I've been there, and it's so awful to watch. Good luck

Pennies - I'm curious to know whether we are talking about the same religion. DH remembers several couples being 'withdrawn' from by the church. One really odd scenario was when a divorced man joined. Although the church are against divorce you can be forgiven of such sins if they happened before finding 'the truth' and being baptised. Everything was fine until the man's ex wife wanted to to re-marry him, and he didn't want her back. His refusal to share his life with the woman who had divorced him and married someone else in the meantime was simply not good enough for the church leaders.

Bourneville - I didn't think your post was harsh and I agree with what you are saying. Nobody has the right to treat anyone like shit just because they can, but we all have to take responsibility for ourselves to some degree. I would love to just put all the blame on his work colleagues but I can't because I can see that his behaviour encourages them. If he gets another job and goes in and behaves the same way this might all happen again, which would be even worse for DH.

GKG - Really pleased to hear that things are looking up for your DH. I had CBT last year when we first realised that DD2 had special needs and although it was helpful I don't think I really wanted it to work at the time. I'm going back in the New Year to try again with it, so I'll try to persuade DH to see the psychologist as well. I think it will take some persuasion but it will be worth it if he agrees as he rarely talks about his feelings, even to me.

MBNM - it was the PBs. Situation in the case I knew of was when a couple with a huge age gap (30+ years) got together. No-one approved, pretty understandably as she was only 18 at the time but they were both ostracised and so they left the church but continued practicing. The whole thing was a bit freaky and I certainly had strong reservations about his motives, but she seemed happy enough.