Stay or Go - Horrendous decision to make

[LubyLu2000]

Hi

I'm new to mumsnet so please be kind to me;)

Basically I have been with DP for 7 years and we have a 5yr old son. I moved abroad to live with him(he's southern european). If I'm being honest from the start the relationship wasn't great and I knew in the back of my head that he wasn't the man for me. Just as we were considering splitting I fell pregnant. At that point I buried all thoughts of leaving him and got on with things. It's been a rollercoaster ride - some awful horrible arguments and other times okay. At times I've even been quite happy cos I've had other distracting things to keep me going.

My life is really quite lonely and boring though. I have 1 friend that I see every couple of weeks but apart from that I'm on my own or with DS. We have little/no social life at the evenings or weekends so I spend most of my time on the computer or watching TV (separate from DP cos I hate TV here!).

I know that we're not right for each other but I do care about him and it would be upsetting and I would miss certain things. I can't really attribute blame here - he's a good person but we're just incompatible.

But how can I split up with him? If I go I really have to go back to the UK cos living here on my own would actually be worse than staying with him, which means splitting up father and son. Much as I can try and kid myself that they'll see each other as much as I can bring DS over - maybe even every couple of months - and I'll make sure they talk every night on Skype I can't even begin to kid myself that it's the same as being close by or in the same town.

I keep looking at my son who's such a happy little soul, playing and laughing and all excited about kid's things and think how can I possibly tear his life apart just for my own happiness. Not to mention doing that to DP as well - if someone was suggesting to me that they take my child away to another country I don't know what I'd do - kill them possibly! so I'm not underestimating for a second the devastating effect it'll have on him and his 2 older half brothers (yes, DP's first wife had an affair and they split up so I also have to live with the guilt of doing this to him for a second time).

I feel so trapped and just fill up with tears constantly. I can't help thinking that if I just got on with things and tried to be happy here then I could be and I wouldn't cause all this heartache for everyone. Just an impossible situation and I feel like the worst person in the world.

Sorry it's a bit long but I have cut out a lot of stuff!

When it comes to being in these dire, isolated groundhog day existences though, I know that it adversely affected my parenting, OK so I was in a pressure cooker environment, fearful of everything and everyone, but the sheer mind-numbing tedium was just excruciating.

DS now is confident, outgoing, friendly, kind, sweet and loved by all. Yes he misses his dad, but that is a situation we can never go back to. Had he stayed there, he would never have met any children, apart from my friend's boys, but once a fortnight at best? X didn't even like me meeting her either, so at any given opportunity I could have been disallowed.

I understand the not wanting to separate children from good/normal dads, but when the price for the father's happiness is the mother's existence being so tortuous, then I honestly question whether any of it is worth that?

It's not like these men will suddenly make it all good again. having 1 friend to see every couple of weeks is a life line, but for the love of god, there is so much more to life than this.

I know I can survive all manner of hell with only the 1 friend, I know I can survive without, but life is not a dress rehearsal, what happens 10 years down the line, or 20? Could you really see yourself doing this for the next 20 years? What level of resentment will there be? I worry that it'll be massive! I hate my X for many things, but that abysmal isolation is a fair way up the list. I only did 3 years, but some days it seems to have scarred me for a lifetime.

It took me a long time to reintegrate into normal life, I suffered from agoraphobia, and still have days where I'd prefer to run home and hide.

The phrase we need to ask ourselves more is What's in it for ME? Life has to be FAIR.

It may be a silly suggestion, but would it be possible to move somewhere else within the country you are living in, eg a larger town/city where you might have more opportunities to find your own niche, make friends etc?

HerHissyness

You make so many good points, a great post. I understand exactly what you are saying and can empathise totally.

My DC were born abroad and I ended up leaving my XP and moving back to the UK. When considering whether to stay or leave I spent months stressing about what was the best decision for my DC. I also felt guilt ridden about moving them to a different country to their father, even though he was not being much of a father to them at the time. However, things have worked out surprisingly well. My DC see their dad regularly and Skype weekly. They have a good relationship with him. When XP visits he gives our DC his full attention and they have a lot of fun together. It is definitely 'quality time.' My life now is great in comparison to what it was abroad (I was very isolated and life with my XP was awful) and because I am so much happier I am sure my DC are happier. Sometimes I think we don't realise how much our children pick up vibes from us, even if we think we are managing to hide them.

I feel for you OP because pre-children I also lived in Southern Europe for a few years and was in a serious relationship. In the end I left because as good a man as my partner at the time was, he was very traditional in his outlook and expected a woman to behave in a certain way. We lived in a small town where everyone knew your business and I found it suffocating. I had a few friends but life felt so restricted and that was without having a small child.

I wish you luck with whatever you decide to do OP. I also agree with what HerHissyness said in that 'there is so much more to life than this.' Deciding to continue to live like this for years to come seems a very bitter pill to swallow. Perhaps moving home for a trial period could enable you to test the waters and see if things could work out for the best.

thanks calypso, now at least you know others who have been where you are now.

You are not so alone now eh?

Thanks everyone so much for your messages. It's good to hear about people's different situations although Calypso I'm sorry you're going through something similar. I veer widly between thinking it's decided and I can go through with it to then watching them play together last night and thinking no way I can do it.
HerHissyness - thanks for talking about the isolation. Sometimes I think I'm just a bit of a moaner and I should be grateful for what I've got so it's good to hear that other people find being alone hard too. I even explained to DP last night that maybe we could make this work if I had other parts to my life ie my work, friends and social life was fulfilling and would leave me less time to focus on or think about our relationship. But as it is I have no life outside or inside the house.
We've talked and he's obviously very hurt, stressed and angry. He's also saying that he can't go on like this so something has to change. It's affecting my work quite badly now as well - I've hardly done a thing for weeks as my concentration is totally gone to pot and the house is a mess.
Maybe the first step is just to split and stay in Italy so as not to rush into something and cause upheaval for everyone - I just don't know.
If he wasn't a good father in my head I could kind of justify it but I really can't say he isn't at all. To me in the past he's been a bit sexist (although changed over the years and totally progressed on from what the rest of his male relations are like!). Yeah, I'd like him to have done a lot more of the "dirtywork" in bringing up a child but he does spend time with him playing, talking to him, making up stories (way more inventive than I am!) and it would be very sad for DS to miss out on that just for my happiness.

Love, my x was abusive. I pleaded with him to 'just be nice' nothing more. I begged for a less isolated life.

Every so often he would raise my hopes of a chaperone, (he couldn't be bothered to take me out) a driver but nothing would ever materialise. I think he did this to hurt me actually, never had any intention of ever bettering my life.

IF you sit your DP down, and explain how dismal your life is, how deeply miserable you are, and tell him what you would like to do with your life to make it better, and he refuses. Then you really have no option.

You say he is macho. Does he therefore think women need to be at home? does he approve of you going out and about? If not, then you kind of know where this is all headed.

Let me tell you. As sad as it is to realise, a good father is not one that allows his wife to be so abjectly miserable, having the power to do something about it, but refuses to do so. A good father is one that knows his wife is entitled to joy and happiness in her life independent of his input/involvement.

I want nothing more than you to come on here and tell me that you have spoken to him, he gets it and that you are going to do x, y and z in the future. could you set up a play group? get lots of Mamas over for coffee and a play?

Can you be proactive about getting your life back?

If he stands in your way, then you know what you really have to do. Specifically for your DS, you can't bring a healthy child up in a situation like that. TRUST ME!

DS (5) has had a lot to get over. I still worry for him tbh, and hate myself for putting him through that incarceration. I am proud of his achievements these days, he has come a long way.

You can talk, and make up stories on Skype you know?

You need a life too love, you are years off being dead!!

I'm 43 next week, and I deserve a life, why not you?

Sorry, will shut up in a sec...

Just spotted this:

"DP's first wife had an affair and they split up so I also have to live with the guilt of doing this to him for a second time"

Think about this. Right now, with you as unfulfilled, miserable, lonely and isolated as you are. How vulnerable to an affair would you be?

Let me tell you, MASSIVELY! All it would take would be for a friendly guy to shower you with attention, tell you you were lovely, that he found you fascinating and funny and attractive and your head might very well turn.

How do you know that your P's previous wife wasn't living as you do now? Or if she didn't, perhaps because of her leaving him, he has somehow placed you on virtual lockdown to prevent you from meeting anyone and doing the same to him?

If this guy doesn't let you drastically improve your life (and I worry with the comment you made about him saying he was upset and stressed and angry when you raised the subject) then he is KEEPING YOU IN IT, for his own insecurity.

I know I could be projecting, and I hope I am wrong, but you need to see where things go next.

There is every possibility that he may say, Ooh, poor you, I didn't realise, yes of course you need to do stuff... and all will be well. If he fights your happiness, take it from me, no amount of bargaining, pleading or begging will do any good. I spent 3 years begging for a life. If I were still there, I'd still be begging and I'd still be on lifetime lockdown, in a tiny flat, for weeks and weeks at a time.

The longest period I spend in egypt without leaving the apartment we were in was 10 weeks, and I only went out then as I was haemorrhaging and needed to get to a hospital fast. Mine was an extreme situation, not everyone lives like that. But then again, not everyone lives as you do.

Do what you can. I wish you literally all the luck in the world! (((HUGS)))

lubylu, I am in a similar position to except that I am from a different country and I live in the UK.

I can recognize myself a lot when you talked about being there with no friend, no family, no ante-natal pals etc.... I live in a small town where I still feel an outsider, nearly 14 years on. No wonder I ended up with PND with dc1 and found things very difficult in these last few years.
On the top of it, I think the isolation makes any relationship problems looking/becoming bigger. Like my H inability to spend some family time together which became a BIG issue for me (No other time with an adult except the time with him and then he was doing his best not to be there!). If I had been in my own country, with friends etc... it would have been so much easier as i know I would just have gone out, seen them, have a nice time together and the BIG issue would have been just an issue that you can tackle isywim.

The big difference with me is that I have managed to create a network of friends (I've put a lot of effort into it and still took me a few years to do so) - some of which aren't close by but we speak on the phone and organize some meet up on a regular basis. And I do have a job here that I love.

But it didn't change the fact that H and I aren't compatible. A bit like you, we don't talk apart from basic factual things. If I was to put on paper what I would want from my dream partner and compare it to H, you would see a major gap between the two.
What I am trying to say is that you have 2 issues here. The fact that you are finding hard to live where you are and the fact you are not in love with your P. The truth is that even wo the country issue, you would probably struggle in your relationship.
If you were both in the UK, what would you do? Stay with him, trying to make it work or go separate ways? Try and imagine what you say to your best friend if she was involved in a relationship similar to yours.

I also think that when you get divorced, people find it acceptable that one partner moves away to be closer to family/friends. It makes sense as when life is easier then you are happeir and therefore your dcs are happier.
In some ways it looks much worse when you talk about changing country. But is it really different than if you were moving to the North East and your P would stay where you live, let's say in Cornwall? The possibilities for your ds to see his dad would pretty similar than for you with his dad been in Italy.

You, of course, also have the possibility to stop living together and for you to stay in Italy. And then depending on how things go on, move back to the UK at a later date (Which is my option).

One last comment is about moving back to the UK. My experience from living abroad and coming back home is that it can be quite difficult to settle back. People will have carry on living their life with little changes. You haven't and will have incorpoated to your own belief system some of the italians ways. This can be hard to cope with too (And one of the reason I personnaly would not rush back to my own country as I know I will feel a bit like a stranger there too).

HerHissyness - thanks so much for your support and apologies if I've mislead but DP does not in the slightest keep me in lockdown or stop me from meeting people. Yes, he has some attitudes that are very southern european but he has been open to change and he would be totally delighted if I had lots of friends here and was going out a bit more. He's struggled to have good friendships here himself because it's not his hometown and he was married extremely young (as a teenager) and took his role as father/husband very seriously so basically worked very hard and lost out on that part of his youth. Friends he had were other couples so all of that was lost when the marriage split up and as a result as a couple we're also quite isolated. Yes, he also agrees that he must have contributed to his wife having the affair but tbh what I know of her now I'm not too impressed (never around for her sons etc). I don't think it's unusual for him to be angry in such a situation, I would be too and don't worry I give as good as I get!! There is no great drama here, I am nothing like emotionally abused, it's simply that he's not the man for me - but he's still a good man.
Tooscaredtoleave - I could fully understand that although I would prefer to be in the UK there are things about there I don't like and that are better here and that is also impacting on my decision. The UK drinking culture is certainly something I don't miss at all (even though I hypocritically did my fair share of it when I was younger!).

Oh thank god for that, it was just me putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with half a dozen.

As I said, if you say you need more of a life and he supports this, then it's a normal healthy relationship. Did he take it as a kind of insult that you said you were unhappy? Gah, men always want to fix things, sometimes they just need to shh and listen!

Can you maybe, as a couple, try to find a way of making friends?

I came home, yes it was weird, as I used to live in London, now I'm near where I grew up, and I don't really know that many people at all, but it still beats life out there.

I read the first bit of your message and I almost thought I had written it!! Except if I leave we would be about 150 miles from each other. It's a really tough one, I met my partner 5 years ago and like you wanted to split from the start but never got around to it! My daughter is now 2 and I really feel the time has come to leave (I have been telling myself this for 5 years tho!)

Like you, people have asked me about marriage and I've lied, I'm 35 and would love to get married, just not to him. I also have previous regrets about a past partner who I turned down and now miss loads.

I asked some people about the situation and they have all said LEAVE, I know it's hard, especially with the distance but as time goes by you will become more and more unhappy. We've grown to dislike each other and there is no respect left. I'm looking at rentals now but have no job yet. I would suggest that you plan to leave and make a plan. Don't feel the need to leave until you know what to do. As i've found it's unhealthy to stay together and builds resentments.

There was a little period there when I started to actually think that I could go through with it and then I was watching them together and suddenly thought there's no way I can explode everyone's lives like that. We'll see what happens and maybe we'll split with me staying close by but I just need to try and put aoo thoughts of the UK out of my mind cos it's just making me feel worse. :(
Thanks for the support and messages though.

Possibly flogging a dead horse here, but I'm still wondering whether you couldn't move somewhere else in Italy, ie to a bigger town?
I have a df who was in an almost identical situation to you about 5 years ago, except her ds was slightly younger at the time... anyway, she finally separated from her dp, moved to Florence (reasonably nearby) and threw herself into a new job. Five years ago she was miserable, deflated, overweight, and continually saying how much she hated Italy, how suffocating it was etc etc Today, she looks stunning, has an amazing job, dozens of friends and the most incredible lifestyle in Florence. Her facebook updates make me green! Most importantly, however, her little boy is thriving and happy and spending plenty of time with both parents. If someone had told me 5 years ago that my df could ever be happy in Italy, I would never have believed them. It really is possible :)

It's certainly something to think about but not to be too negative I can't really see it happening. I just don't have the desire for it and you'd have to be really up for it to make it happen. And DP wouldn't move cos his business is all based here - as it is he's been hit by the recession so to move somewhere totally different and start from scratch would be financial suicide - i do agree with him on that.
Never know in the future though.

have been and to some extent am in v similar situation LubyLu and calypso. PM me if you want to chat