Worried about friend abusing child

[curtaincall]

Never posted in relationships and don't know if this is right place.

An old friend visited yesterday and told me she and DH had started hitting their dd. (They call it smacking). I am horrified and can't get it out of my head. She tried to rationalise it, but I just said you mustn't do that and though she said they were going to see an ed psyc realise that they are the ones that need help. Our dcs were with us playing all the time and we couldn't talk any more. She got very emotional and told me I didn't know what it was like living with her DC 6. Can't sleep as I just feel so dreadful for this child. WWYD?

i think she was reaching out to you. call her and ask if she wants to meet up she sounds like she may be depressed, maybe feeling trapped.

horrible position to be in i would be really upset too :(

did her dc seem unhappy, nervous or withdrawn? difficult as my knee jerk reaction would be to contact ss but at the same time i feel she is not happy and is needing support

Poor child. Are they hitting her to discipline her? That is really awful and the child needs someone to protect her. How old is she?

Sounds like they are really not coping. Is her dc a difficult child?

I definitely think you need to make it a priority to contact this friend again and to have a serious talk to her about it. It sounds from your post that she was trying to start a conversation about it and that she might be open to your help and advice, rather than being defensive about it. I wouldn't rush to call SS just yet as it might make things much worse in the short term. Try approaching your friend first and if that doesn't work then think about going to social services. Maybe let your friend know that that might be what you have to do.

You mentioned the ed psych - is her dd going for an assessment? Does she have behavioural/learning difficulties?

I know a lot of people are hugely anti-smacking but equally, quite a lot of people think the occasional smack on the bum in an otherwise close and loving family is not that big a deal. Do you think they are doing more than an occasional smack on the bum? If not, then calm down!

thanks for all these replies. I was up most of the night and router as usual playing up till now.

I've known this friend for about 30 years and she has history of depression. She's been in therapy, but to be honest, after 16 years she still seems 'stuck' in her difficult childhood. Her dc is 6yo (not her sixth dc!) and an only child. My friend had IVF and after a very long and difficult birth seemed to resent the baby who wasn't sleeping well for ages. She might have had PND but so hard to tell with someone prone to depression anyway. Whenever we spoke she seemed to resent me having such an easy time of it and having a really calm and easygoing baby. Everything has always been about competition with others and how her dc is doing compared to her cohort, and sometimes I've had to stay away for months as she's quite high maintenance emotionally (I live in a different city) and extremely critical too.

Her dc is bright and very serious and determined. When she was much smaller, the way she moved and spoke seemed like a miniature little woman and my friend said how she didn't know how to play with her DD. IMO she doesn't have learning difficulties at all except her mum loses it when DD doesn't do as she's told (not a good eater, doesn't like reading though seems like she's doing OK from my point of view) She used to be a very bossy child with an earsplitting scream and we were happy we didn't see them more than once or twice a year, but she seemed much better yesterday and now she and my ds played really well and a bit cheekily together. My friend says her dd has huge rages at home though is a model pupil at school. I said maybe she is angry and my friend agreed but suggested it was school that was the problem ! So behavioural difficulties, certainly.

Yes they are hitting to discipline but the way she described it wasn't just a small smack but manhandling and shoving and yelling etc. It could well be a cry for help and if i called ss - which i've thought of doing - they would just see a nicely kept, able, clean, child in a very comfortable middle class family who would cover it over. Agree I need to have serious discussion with her about this.

She's made appointment to see ed psych though they haven't got back to them yet, but even if if they could see the whole family dynamic was problem, what could they do? Fwiw i would say her own family drama being played out with this child and that they are both frightened of her.

Sorry about long post, I feel shocked though and want to get all relevant info down.

The fact your friend has contacted an ed psych is good. Do you know if private or through NHS because most NHS services take ages to refer and do anything.

I know what it is like to be your friend, struggling to bring up a difficult child. Sometimes, as in our case the difficult child is autistic, which would explain some of what you have described. Its hard because these beautiful but challenging children simply do not respond to 'normal' parenting techniques. The rages at home are common for children who are struggling to fit in and try so hard that they meltdown after hours. There is also a complex relationship between depression and children with autism or other special needs. The depression in the parent doesn't cause the special need obviously but there is a feedback effect.

You are right the family does need help. Your friend may just need to shift her expectations of the child. Even knowing there is a reaosn behind the challenging behaviour and avoiding situations that fuel it can help.

A useful thing to suggest to your friend is that when it gets too much get out of the room. That way if she is struggling to deal with the behaviour she won't be too physical with the child in the meantime. My health visitor told us that.

Also as someone who has had to physically manhandle my dc to stop him banging his head on a stone floor or attacking another child her actions may be to protect her.

A 'friend' (who is now not) once told me she thought it strange the way I constantly talked instructions and directions to my then very small dc. Also that I was not helping him learn by going after him when he ran away. I should stay still and he will come back and that by talking to him in a certain way I was expecting him to do certain things and that they would happen. She had no idea what is was like to be me and the consequences of not doing as I was.

I think what your friend is saying is 'is this normal?'. I suggest you tell her to look up autism/asperger syndrome to see if anything rings a bell. Then get her to have her GP refer them to a local children's centre for an assessment.
She may have to be quite blatant and demanding or she may be fobbed off.

Thanks for your response AlderTree They are a wealthy family and am pretty sure they'd find a private ed psych. I had already concluded that she and dh should remove themselves from situation if things look like getting too stressful for them.

Also as someone who has had to physically manhandle my dc to stop him banging his head on a stone floor or attacking another child her actions may be to protect her.

well she said that her DD hits them, but i don't think she attacks other children or hurts herself. I have such respect for anyone like yourself who overcomes or learns to live with a child with autism, as it's hard enough anyway. Although I'm no expert, I really don't think the little girl has any special needs other than to be listened to and handled with less stress. I see the pressure my friend puts on her - bringing her schoolbook to a day out with us and wanting her to read in quite a hectoring way. The same with eating. It's like she's under a microscope and all her actions and words are examined and discussed. It feels obsessive tbh. No I don't know what it's like to be her, and it must be just awful to be judged as you were by your ex-friend. I don't want to do that. Just to help and not stand by as this thing escalates. When I first saw your suggestion to have her look up AS, I though that's the end of our friendship, but on second thoughts she might be up for trying to find any solution. I think blatant and demanding won't be a problem for her Wish me luck!

Good luck Curtaincall. I have another idea too given the child is very able. There are other disciplinary methods that involve getting the child to look at other ways of behaving as if it isn't an underlying undiagnosed special need it could be that your friend is insisting on route a) child does what parent wants; child actually has reasons for not doing - angry, determined etc child wants route c) their own way. Route b) is compromise. This method is explained in the explosive child by Ross.W Greene. Its a good book, lots of case studies and examples of how it works it practice. Also there is raising a self disciplined child by Brooks and Goldstein. You could try a line that goes 'what starts her off hitting you/why does she do that' followed by maybe you could get her to help see why you want her to do x,y,c as she is clearly very clever' Then I saw, read, heard about this, why not google.........' This may save your friendship.

Ultimately if you think the child is in danger you need to contact social services though hopefully the ed psych will intervene before that is necessary.

Curtaincall you can always just become very up to date with the news in the SEN world - girls are going undiagnosed with AS because they seem to behave quite normally. I am sure you could drop it into a conversation - plant the idea maybe. Even if the girl has only to handled sensitively and with less pressure parenting as if you have an AS child can work. Actually the danger may be that the ed psych will tell her exaclty what she wants to hear and then you may have another problem of the 'AS career parent' given the mum's obsessions.

Does Mum work? She may need another interest to save her from obsessing about the dd.

great recommendations re books. I can easily drop them into phone conversation when I call tonight as i have a local friend she knows about with a son who has rages the same age and i could easily have heard about all of this from her.

That's dreadful about undiagnosed AS girls. I realise i know nothing about this and musn't assume she's not AS as she has always seemed like a more neurotic ie just like her mother! version of all the other girls i know. I am going to do some research. Yes, my friend set up her own business last year, not at home, and really thrives on this. She being pretty successful and earning the bread (though they don't really need it). Tbh, pretty sure she enjoys it more than being a mum. In fact am sure she does. She's capable of obsessing about quite a few things at the same time. Husband looks after child during day when not at school.

Surely a professional ed psych wouldn't just tell a lay person what they wanted to hear?!

what you wrote about 'AS career parent' is something i can well imaging happening as she does have a tendency to pathologize her DD.

Maybe the mother has AS, not the kid?

Perhaps 4c4good. Curtaincall regrading the ed psych thing....in certain areas e.g. education a privately diagnosed condition such as dyslexia is sometimes regarded with a little skepticism. Not sure whether it is a case of people who pay for such assessments are already sure and therefore they are confirmed because they are actually true. I would hope that is the case.

she thanked me for the book ideas AlderTree but is so fed up with the whole thing she doesn't really want to read them aswell but realises she should. I'll try and make sure she does even if i buy them myself. She admitted to not being able to cope so I'll try and ensure she gets proper help.

As I've said, am not up to speed with AS at all, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I really don't know if you can get into your mid-late forties without being diagnosed with AS so I don't know if that was a serious comment 4c4. I doubt not.

Just thought maybe you were trying to be helpful 4c4good.

You can definitely get into your mid-late forties without being diagnosed with AS especially if you are a woman. You would feel that you didn't fit in with anyone it would necessarily mean you couldn't have a relationship, children and hold a job. You would find these things very stressful and difficult.

anyone can reach that age undiagnosed male or female, although I agree that its more subtle in females and therefore not so easily noticed, women are generally better at masking the signs partly due to social pressure and maybe partly due to the fact that womens brains work differently.

My husband is undiagnosed AS, well not an official diagnosis, but he has accepted whats going on. It is possible to have relationships and families, as severity on the spectrum does vary widely, but believe me its a nightmare at times. I'm surprised we're not divorced by now!

Sorry this is totally off topic, but I thought it was worth adding.
If anyone is interested in adults male or female with AS, google Maxine Aston, she has done lots of amazing research in this area.

I will certainly look into Maxine Aston. Thanks for that needanothercuppa. When you say AS, does this stand for Autism, Asbergers or both?

Are you saying aldertree that it would be stressful as a woman if you were married and had children and a job with undiagnosed AS? My friend is immensely sociable and very interested in other people's lives and observes them closely as she always gives me very detailed analyses and updates on mutual friends relationships:)

AS = aspergers, its a commonly used way to denote it. E.g. AS or non AS referring to partners in a relationship where one person has AS and the other doesnt.

Agree with quietlysuggests. AS is not necessarily at play here, it was only a suggestion and we got diverted from the real problem at hand and that is the mother's behaviour and relationship with her poor child. No wonder the child has behavioural issues, it sounds like she is reflecting and reacting to what she experiences at home and its all spiralling out of control. I hope the mum manages to get help. It sounds like she really needs it. I think it is also worth seeing an educational psychologist as one never knows, there could be something going on and its best to check it all out.

quietlysuggests you are right.

But even if i called the school anonymously, what could they do? Apparently the child is perfectly behaved at school and saves these rages for her parents. Short of the school coming to their house to police them and that's not going to happen.

Yes and no to ed psych - I can see both pros and cons of this. Tried calling her but she was out at PTA (!) Will try again tonight.