If I stay, can he change?

[McTemp]

DP and I are both in our late twenties, engaged to be married this summer, no kids (yet). He is a wonderful partner in so many ways, generous, funny, and he would do anything for me. But. I feel he has a problem with drinking - he doesn't. He works in the construction industry where it is the "norm" to have a few pints every night after work, and then drink to oblivion on a Friday. I have less issue with the amount he drinks, and more with his aggressive behaviour when he is drunk. This culminated in an argument a few weeks back when he got into a bar brawl and I ended things. I said I couldn't spend my life with an aggressive drunk.

He promised to change, and hasn't been aggressive since. He watches how much he drinks and has switched to shandys. Today he text me at 9am to say he was finishing work early as the site has closed. He picked me up from work at 5pm saying he had gone to the pub for two pints as was home by 1pm, and fell asleep. As soon as I got home, it was obvious to me he hadn't been there and had spent the entire day in the pub. He was very clearly drunk.

I'm upset and angry - firstly because he endangered our lives and the lives of others by driving when so heavily under the influence, and secondly because he is still lying to me and claiming he only had two pints. I'm not an idiot- he must have had at least 8. He goes on the defensive, tells me I'm being mental.

I don't want to end things, but I don't know what to do. Help me, please. I'm so confused.

It is a HUGE myth that to be an alcoholic you have to drink everyday. Many alcoholics can stop for periods, quote long periods even. Then they binge drink. I'm not sure that having him give up for a month would prove anything. I could give up anything for a month because I would know I could have it again at the end of the period.

I have been sober for ten years thanks to rehab and AA. When I was drinking I did actually stop for a month, no problem at all, to prove I wasn't a drunk. But I couldn't stop permanently and my drinking got progressively more out of control. That is so important to grasp: alcoholism gets worse and worse. You need Al-anon. Meet some people there are see if you want the lives they have, OP.

How much history do you have with this man? 2 years?, 5years? 10 years?

If you marry this guy, you fancy spending the next 10, 20 or 30 years together, the way it is now.

You have the rest of your life to be happy, living with an alcoholic, or at the very least someone with a drinking problem. I call making a tough decision NOW, to tackle this and make sure it's solved NOW is an investment, not a few years you have spent rubbing along with him.

I know I was guilty of this in the past, the not wanting to throw away the investment I had made in the relationship I was in, but it made me miserable, worse than suicidal; I was forced to survive abuse and humiliation every day, day after day after day, and knew that there wasn't a way out.

You have a choice, you HAVE to live the best you can, and so does he. If he can't sort himself out, please don't allow him to drag you down with him. He has to stop for himself, and I sadly don't think this is going to happen any time soon.

Your comments of If I told him I'd leave, he'd stop.... But you haven't asked him have you? Perhaps you don't want to explicitly ask him, because you know he'd either refuse, or he'd fail. You think he'd do it for you, but you are not sure. As we say here time and time again. ACTIONS not WORDS, you need to decide what you need and stick to it. Don't ever sell yourself short.

My abusive X, I asked him time and time again to just be nicer, not treat me equally, or cherish me as is actually my right, but just stop being nasty. He couldn't, didn't think he had to, didn't want to give up the power.

Your P is addicted to alcohol, or at the very least USING alcohol rather than just enjoying it. In some ways, he has a harder battle than my ex would have had,

You need to lay down the law, I rather think, you may have to leave for him to sort himself out. If he does, great, you carry on and all will be great. If he doesn't, then you have prevented yourself from being dragged down that hideous road with him.

HOnestly, bail out now. He's already an aggressive drunk. You need to get out before you are PG, you ask him to stay home from the pub tonight because you need extra money to buy the baby a cot and he kicks you down the stairs. DV is commonly triggered by pregnancy when a man is selfish and entitled and doesn't mind using force to get his own way.

McTemp - so sorry for you; know it sounds harsh but I agree with all who say that you should leave the relationship! You are his enabler and he knows that you are very loving, kind-hearted and willing to believe all of his promises! Take care of yourself and be very, very strong! Best wishes

"I will get him to try and address his drinking by quitting for a month. If he fails, I leave"

No, no and no again. This will not work at all. Words are cheap and he is adept at telling you what you want to hear. Him quitting for a month will not work and you know this. He cannot control his drinking at all and you cannot act as his policewoman here by trying to.

You now have a chance to get out of this relationship and you should be grabbing it with both hands. Find someone who loves you more than alcohol; his primary relationship is now with drink. Alcohol is a cruel mistress.
If you marry him you will end up being the wife of a drunkard.

You are playing a part in all this now by being his enabler and making excuses for him. I would educate yourself further re alcoholism and your role here within it because you are playing this role now. You are also on the merry go around that is alcoholism; it does not just affect the alcoholic.
Alcoholism is a family disease. You are being dragged down by him now.

Do talk to Al-anon. I know you have history and all that but he is putting drink first now and has probably always done within your relationships.

The 3cs re alcoholism:-
You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

He won't change.

Sorry-that wasn't very helpful. I think you need to leave. If he is totally shocked he might seek help.You are allowing him to continue and it will be worse once you are married.

I've been having a read of the Al Anon forum I posted the link to above and this stood out in the FAQ

----

1. Q. Why do I need to have my own program of Recovery?

A. Many of us who have lived with Alcoholism in our lives have been affected by it without even realizing it ourselves. Not just in the sense of having to put up with the alcoholics behavior, but in the sense that we ourselves have become irritable and unreasonable without even knowing it. Having our own program of recovery allows us to take the focus off of the things in our lives, which we cannot control, such as the actions of others, and onto the things in our lives, which we CAN control, our actions, our thoughts, and our happiness.

-----

That might be worth having a think about. As much as any of us here would want to convince you to not chose a relationship with massive obstacles to overcome and the potential for relapse after you have committed yourself through marriage and children, the choice has to be yours, or it won't be sustainable. In many ways that reflects what you are doing with the man you love. You want him to choose a life free of the burden and consequences of excessive alcohol consumption, but unless\until he freely chooses that himself, it won't stick.

I do see an alternative to the black and white choice of staying with him or leaving him.

You could take control of your recovery (see number 3 above) by setting out the ground rules for YOU and YOUR life and lifestyle.

You can delay making a commitment via marriage until such time as you believe there will be only two of you in the relationship, rather than you, him and the drink.

You can chose to see him and spend time with him only when he is neither drinking, nor drunk. It will mean planning being in his company around the times he is least likely to have had a drink and having back up plans if the drink creeps out of its usual pattern so you can extract yourself and spend that time instead with people who are present, lucid and able to enjoy your company without impairment dictating the tone and content of the get together.

You can do that until such a time as he freely chooses to acknowledge and resolve his alcohol issues. Or worst case scenario, as long as you see a reason to, as long as your hope and love lasts, if he persists in excessive drinking.

I think the importance and freeing aspect of FAQ number 3 is that is reveals you are not helpless or without control in this situation as long as you exercise it where it can work, ie on your choices, rather than trying to control that which you can never control, him and his relationship with alcohol.

I honestly think that site can give you a place to start thinking about how you might best place the pair of you to manage the situation you are in, in order to aim for the best possible outcome for the pair of you, as well as creating support and comprehension should things not turn out as you would wish.

Thank you, all of you. I can't leave NOW, I can't. I would forever wonder 'what if'. I feel like I need to KNOW things won't get better, and I can't throw away what we've got yet. But I know I might have to at some point.

Re: postponing the wedding. Our wedding isn't this summer anyway, I lied to try and not make myself identifiable. A relative who I have spoken to about DP's drink is on mumsnet, and I told her things were better with him now. I didn't want her to know about this incident.

I won't marry him unless I'm sure, I promise you that much. I can't imagine walking down the aisle as things are now, but I can't imagine leaving him either.

I think you are all right when you say there is little point in asking me to 'prove' himself by not drinking for a month. Because he probably could, but I see that it wouldn't change the person he becomes when he goes back to drinking. And when I said he is aggressive, I just want to make it clear he has NEVER hit me. He gets very 'verbal' towards me, but physical violence is only ever displayed to other men (for 'looking at me' etc), and since I told him I couldn't tolerate that and I moved out for a few days, I think it really shocked him into realising I would leave. And he changed his habits. For the last month or two he hasn't been an aggressive drunk.

But yesterday's lies bother me so much. He's trying to hide the amount he drinks, and I hate him when he's like how he was yesterday. He's an awful man like that. But then today, when I see him (I didn't stay at home last night), I know he will be so full of remorse and so sorry and so willing to change.

Thanks for the Al-Anon stuff. There is a meeting near me on thursday. I'll go to it and then think things through from there.

McTemp, what is his attitude today to things?

You say he's never been violent to you. I say he's never been violent to you - yet. Please have a read of this poor MNer's recent experience.

My battery died last night, so I havent spoken to him (I'm at work). We were supposed to go away this weekend, and he just emailed me saying "The hotel X reccomended is called The Big Sleep if you want to book it". No mention of anything.

He just doesn't 'get' it. He, no doubt, will stick to his lie - he swears he only had four pints, he genuineley thought he was ok to drive. He doesn't understand my issue is with his lying as much as anything - he said he was at home all day (he wasn't). When I asked him yesterday what he had been watching on tv all day, he even surruptitiously tried to look at the tv guide on his iphone to find out what had been on. His attempt to decieve me was so sneaky, and that really bothered me.

I read that other thread. I wanted to cry. Not just for her, but for the chance that it will be me.

The thing is - he used to be violent. About 3 years ago, he got drunk, I was hiding in the bathroom from him because he was scaring me by yelling in my face etc and called a (male) friend to come get me. DP kicked the bathroom door down, picked up a kitchen knife and said he would stab the friend if he came to get me.

I ended things. And DP DID change. He has never been aggressive to me like that since. And whilst I know that incident is an awful one that instantly makes people want to cry "leave!", the fact he has changed over the last three years makes me think he can change again, IYSWIM?

From someone who is living with an alcoholic who is in denial.

No they don't change, they may improve for a while but then its down the slippery slope again, do you want your children to grow up thinking drinking is normal.

He won't change. 'Getting' him to stop for a month will change nothing. And if he has been violent in the past he can be again.

Get out now. You are in denial and are kidding yourself. Sorry to be so blunt but I talk from long, painful experience.

Making a life - and a family - with this man will bring problems and heartache. Don't inflict this on yourself or any future children.

He hasn't changed that much though, has he? He's still verbally aggressive towards you. He still gets aggressive towards other men for 'looking at' you.

Being 'verbal' with you is still violence. The reason he hasn't hit you again, you said, is that you left. So by not leaving now, despite all the shouting and the drinking and the drink driving, you're showing him that these things are OK. And the longer you stay with him, the less likely you are to leave and the more you'll put up with. He will get worse. Because the fact that you're staying with him now says that you're willing to put up with all his crap. He has no incentive to improve his behaviour if you're still there.

You are not yet 30. you will meet someone else who does not behave like this.

he is in denial.

You are in denial.

He does "get it". He gets that he can get pissed and lie to your face whenever he wants. Then, provided he acts all contrite and sorry and makes loads of empty promises to change, he gets that you'll forgive him and sweep it all under the carpet until the next time.

Whether his drinking patterns make him an alcoholic today or not is irrelevant. There's no clear definition of what an alcoholic is. What is clear is that:

a) His drinking is causing problems in your relationship
b) He is lying about his drinking
c) He prefers to try to make you believe you are mad rather than telling the truth about his drinking
d) He drinks and drives
e) When he gets drunk he can become aggressive and violent
f) Despite all the above he has no intention of stopping drinking

It's only three weeks since he was last drunk and aggressive yet you are already hoping that is signs of a major change of heart in him. It is very common for people who are in a relationship with someone with alcohol problems to cling on to the smallest signs in the belief that they signal a major change.

When I was with my ex, for a long time I tended to see each ugly drunken incident as an anomaly, something that had a particular cause and for which the alcohol made things worse. What I came to realise, though, was that each incident was just part of a larger pattern of behaviour that was entirely rooted in alcohol. Our relationship rose and fell on a tide of alcohol. And, as often happens in heavy drinking relationships, as the years went by the drinking, and the problems got worse.

The choice about whether you continue this relationship or not rests with you. I stuck it out for nine years before things got so bad that I lost all hope. But for god's sake don't bring a child into this. There are few things more horrible than trying to raise a child with a drunk.

Incidentally, I don't doubt that his drinking seems unremarkable amongst his friends and family. It doesn't make it a working class thing (I can point you to any number of middle class and upper class families which are exactly the same - read Clarissa Dickson-Wright's autobiography, for example), it's more that if you are raised in a family of drunks then you are very likely to become a drunk yourself. Also, heavy drinkers are fantastically good at identifying other heavy drinkers and latching onto them as drinking buddies. It's like a pisshead version of gaydar. People who don't get drunk at every opportunity are simply dismissed as "boring".

McTemp, look at it from our point of view. We don't have the pleasure of knowing this man; we only know what you've told us.

When he drinks, he drinks too much.

He drives when he's drunk.

He has frightened you when he's drunk.

He is aggressive at other men, either for 'looking at you' or for trying to help you.

He lies and lies and lies.

Now think about this from our point of view - do we really want you coming back on here in a couple of years time asking for help to leave him? Do you really want your children to have to go to a shelter because their dad has scared and hurt their mum?

Don't you believe that you deserve a husband who loves you more than he loves alcohol?

Don't you believe your unborn children deserve a loving, non-alcoholic, non-violent father?

You know it's inevitable, don't you? You know he will hurt you and frighten you again? You know if you have children together it will exacerbate the situation?

You are all so right. I see it, I really do. I sent him an email, (essentially copy and pasted from snorbs post - and then the email got picked up by my work 'sweeper' for having the word "pissed" in it - which means the ITdept will now know my problems. The funny thing is that the mortification im feeling isnt even top of my issues right now)

The email I sent ended with:

"Its not up to me to make the next step here DP. I've told you where I stand - I'm staying in this relationship, but do you really want to know why? Because I need to feel I gave you one final chance. And I know in advance that things won't change, and that the outcome is the same - I will leave. Its really just a matter of when, not if, I suppose.

The point is, I have realised I dont WANT to be with you anymore. I'll stay with you this time because its easier, but in reality part of me has already left this relationship and is looking for a way out. I'm going to a meeting on Thursday. Its for people in relationships with drinking problems. And I want to go to meet other people who live with people with problems like yours. I want to know how they deal with it, and I want to see what my life will be like in 10years time, so its easier for me to leave you.

Things are in your hands now. As it stands, I imagine we wont be together by the end of the summer. But then thats up to you."

I need to give him ONE final chance. And it is just one, i promise you. There won't be a second or a third. I do feel more 'removed' from the relationship now, I can see I need to leave, and that there is not a healthy future for us there. But I need to give him one chance. When I walk away, I need to know I tried everything, and this is my last resort. I won't be the woman who comes on here and wants help leaving once she has kids, I will leave. But not yet.

Thank you all, truley, for your advice. And whilst it may appear I havent taken it all in, I have, I promise.

Mctemp,

Re your comments:-
"For the last month or two he hasn't been an aggressive drunk.

But yesterday's lies bother me so much. He's trying to hide the amount he drinks, and I hate him when he's like how he was yesterday. He's an awful man like that. But then today, when I see him (I didn't stay at home last night), I know he will be so full of remorse and so sorry and so willing to change"

But these men are adept at telling their women victims what they want to hear. They're all full of "remorse" and "wanting to change". Full of it is what they actually are. Its all lies and denial on his part (and you are in denial as well). Alcoholics are so bloody good at denial as you are seeing. You're lying to yourself as well and that is so sad. Hiding the amount he drinks is also a red flag here amongst many.

Alcoholism as well thrives on secrecy; now you want to keep his latest incident a secret from a relative who has some knowledge of his drink problem. You keep the secret and by doing so you protect the drunkard; your partner is a drunkard and you are now his enabler. You need to wise up pretty quick to that fact and the here s that his primary relationship is now with drink. Not you nor any children you may go onto have by him.

I haven't even covered the fact that he is verbally violent now towards you; you think that being verbally abusive now is somehow any better on the grounds that at least you are not being hit?.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

What do you mean by "I'll stay with you this time because its easier". You've already told him you want out now so follow through with it.

Your innate desire to give him one last chance could cost you dearly, so many women do this and it can destroy them in the process. How many chances have you already given him?.

You cannot change anyone who does not want to change and you cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped. The only person you can actually help here is you and you certainly should go to an Al-anon meeting (and read their literature as well).

You are backtracking with him.

If he want to end it- end it now.

No more chances.

If you end it now and he loves you, he will make changes. Then he can try to win you back.

At the moment you are coming across as a parent who says no, but really means ask me enough times and I will backdown and say yes.

he knows that.

Mctemp,

I would also suggest that you stop bargaining with him as well in your relationship. You've told him you now want out so don't stay with him just because it is somehow "easier". How would that benefit you exactly?.

It is actually okay to put your hands up and say that re him its not working. For all you know your family and friends have been concerned about your relationship for a long time. Relationships should not be such hard work.

Girls, girls, girls, we all know it's hard to slam a door.

Even with someone beating two thirds of Mondays out of you, you still think that if you give him one last chance, he'll change. This guy is an alcoholic, he has a drinking problem, it's serious. Just as these men have scripts, so do we. We have to understand there is a process here, and OP looks to be starting out to understanding her own mind and her own feelings and reclaiming her life.

So, perhaps this is OPs one last chance for her BF? perhaps if he fails to do anything about it, then she knows she has been open, honest and up front, she has told him the consequences.

McTemp, going to Al-Anon is such a brilliant step for you. You won't be on your own now and you will see how your life could be, both with him and without.

I wish you all the success in the world, you are so young and have so much wonderful life ahead of you. Live it.