Me again, needing tips for my Narc Mother......

[DrNortherner]

You will all be fed up of me soon....

Called her tonight having not spoken to her since Friday eve. She started sobbing a soon as she heard it was me on the phone. He reasons are:

She is lonely
She is depressed
She is trying to be strong for me but it's tearing her apart
She hates being alone on an evening
Her friend is also depressed so that sets my Mum off
It feels like I am cutting her off as I don't ring her as often
She thinks my dad's presence is haunting the house
She says her grief is getting worse not easier...

Dad dies over 2 years ago. My Mother has always been an emotional wreck and when she is howling I just clam up, then I feel heartless.

What am I supposed to say to her when she is like this? I normally change the subject but then I know she will be storing more up for later....

Thanks

Oh God those awkwars silences where her tears turn to 'Are you listening?'

And one second she can be wailing hysterically. Then in the next breath she can be completley composed. Very odd.

The answer to "if I don't talk to you who can I talk to?" is "you can talk to a professional counsellor".

Keep it short, keep it detached. Fill the awkward silence with "ooh my neighbour has some lovely roses in her garden" (with detailed description till you get interrupted). You don't have to keep on topic, you don't have to reply to what she just said. This is not a conversation.

If she complains you're not listening, try "no, well I've heard it all before. I must be off now, bye" or alternatively "mmm, I can see three aeroplanes in the sky, its amazing how they stay up isn't it?"

If she starts wailing hysterically try "that's it, have a good cry Mum. I'll talk to you soon then, bye".

Have you tried thinking of her as a 2-year-old, and treating her as you would a toddler who behaves the way she does?

Hmm. Ignore the bad behaviour, reward the good.

What would happen if, every time she starts crying, you brightly said "well, you don't need me to listen to you crying!", hung up, and called again 3 days later?

Every single time?

She'd either get the message and stop crying on you, or you'd enjoy a long period of nice short phonecalls ...

Ahhhh, midwife, now we're beginning to get to the source of why you've had crap relationships up till now. Somebody said on your thread that your parents probably had something to do with it, and this confirms it.

Larkin Was Right.

What would happen if, every time she starts crying, you brightly said "well, you don't need me to listen to you crying!", hung up, and called again 3 days later?

LOVE this idea. But I fear I am not brave enough to carry this out.....but will tell her it's hard for me to listen to her crying all the time. Mind you, have told her this before, then she blames me for making her 'bottle things up' She's never bottled anything up in her life.

Dr N "Not being brave enough" means this is just going to carry on for ever. What do you fear will happen if you take more decisive action? Would it be worse than the current situation?

I know. I need a kick up the arse.

I guess there is still a part of me that thinks I would be a cold hearted bitch for hanging up on my own Mother crying. This is simply ingrained guilt.

Next time I will suggesst a councellor again. I will tell her I am not qualified to listen to my own Mother sobbing time and time again.

Am a little bit about her recent upset which is that she can feel a presence everytime she goes into the kitchen.....

With a hands free phone go outside and ring your own doorbell. "Oooh, I've got to go, someone's at the door. Byeeee". Only use occasionally though!

She probably believes the bit about the "presence" - thing with narcs is they totally believe their own version of reality...This is what makes them so bloody impossible - anything you say or do wlll not be enough.
Dr N - have you had some counselling yourself for how to cope with this?

I had a bit of bereavement counselling after my Dad's death. But it ended up being about her rather than my Dad.

Mum and I had some HUGE rows in the months following my Dads death, mainly because of her total lack of empathy towards me whom she spoke to like I never lost anyone....during a row, when I told her I was finding it hard without my Dad she told me I should get councelling if I was struggling to cope. When I told her I was it stopped her in her tracks. Though she hasn't ever asked me how it is going, how long I went for.....nothing. I think speaking to a pro about my relationship with my Mother is really the way forward.

I did send her a letter about 6 months after Dad died say I was struggling. I told her I had always felt responsible for her emotional wellbeing since being very young, and whilst Dad was around I could handle this, as he was there for me. I explained he was my wise, strong, wonderful Dad and I missed him.

Her response? "How do you think I felt when I read your how what you put about your Dad? You've hurt me"

Yep it def sounds like you need to get some counselling specifically about dealing with a narc mother. Go for it. She is never going to change. She is never going to understand anything about your own emotional state and neither does she want to.
But you have to learn strategies for dealing with this, and also for moving on emotionally, mentally from her and her incessant needs.
Will you do this soon?

DrN: all my sympathies. I have similar issues with my mother, and my father just died a few weeks ago. Cue dmum instantly going in to one of her spells of anxiety and agrophobia and needing an awful lot of hand-holding and looking after. Oh, and, did I mention dmum and ddad were divorced in 1974?

Was so sad today reading birthday cards for mums in the local card shop. The poems inside are hideously cheesy , but I could never buy one of those ones that gush on about wonderful mothers, even if I wanted to, cos its just not true! So another year, yet another National Trust card with a picture of a nice tasteful garden on the front, and just Happy Birthday on the inside.

I don't know what the answer is DrN. Finding some way to accept it, I suppose, because realistically we aren't going to cut all ties, are we?

I phone my mother once a week maximum, though, even when she isn't well. I absolutely could not tolerate the "bringing me down" effect I get from her more often than that.

If you don't phone her for a while and leave it til she phones you, you could just say perhaps "Look Mum, we are having the same phone conversations over and over with you crying and getting cross with me. I can't see how that's healthy, and I can't personally do any more to help you feel better. We can speak more often when you don't go out of your way to make me feel bad any more."

Difficult, I know.

Yes yes, go get more counselling! It is a bit strange, being allowed to be the one that sits and talks about themselves endlessly, but rather nice. And so, so, wonderful to have a sane adult human being look at you, and hear what you can say about your mum, and agree that it was awful, and agree that it was not your fault. Very releasing.

Figure out what you can manage with your mum. What your boundaries and strategies are at the moment. Write it down and leave it by the phone, and read before you call. Baby steps!

But you have to accept that as far as she is concerned, it is all about her, all the time. You don't count. She isn't about to understand you, empathise with you, change for your benefit, or anything like that.

My mum thinks I'm a cardboard cutout. My function is to make her feel good about herself and do things for her, the only opinions I'm allowed are those she has invented for me, and I don't have any feelings or needs. My parents were outraged that I didn't visit when Mum had shingles. Ds2 was tiny at the time, still about a month before his due date. She didn't spare a second's thought for the idea that her tiny 4lb grandson maybe shouldn't be exposed to chicken pox. Mum was Sick, and needed to be Visited. It was lovely and peaceful for quite a while after we didn't show .

Playdoh and others who have had couselling/therapy - how does it help? For me it is the guilt that is overwhelming. I have minimal contact with my mother, and she doesn't let me have contact with my Dad unless she is there. Although I was the one to reduce the contact, by reducing phone calls (I simply got to a stage where I couldn't face speaking to her), visits etc, she has taken it as a snub and reduced contact from her side to the absolute minimum. Typical of her. Maybe its so that it is still me chasing her?

DrN - can really relate to you saying you are not brave enough to carry out certain actions eg hang up and call again in 3 days. I feel exactly the same, can't rock the boat when I am with her, just ignore her constant barbs and digs instead of challenging her on them.

Sorry only just got on again, I have had a few talks with her on the phone saying that I can't cope with her unless she gets counselling, recently, which makes her put on her 'pathetic' voice on when she calls

my brother and I like to do impressions of this as it is the only way to recognise that it is fake, cause believe me she is a strong willed as an ox with skin to match, just when she hears me being strong she doesn't like it

its starts off answering the phone really quiet so you can hardly hear her, then she tells you some tragic thing thats happened usually someone who has died in the village and so on.

I just had a daughter, and when she found out the name, she said oh thats the same as Catherine's daughter. Catherine my neighbour who lives in frikin austrailia, who cares !!! Like I am supposed to hink up something entirely new. This will really annoy her as our neighbours will love it that they have the same name.

She will only resort to behaviuor like your mums if she has been talking to me for a while and I am sounding like I'll listen.

I'm not listening anymore.....I've promised myself

Larkin certainly was right but I hope my children don't agree in 30 years!! I've made my best friend promise that if I ever do a "pathetic" voice or guilt trip my kids she'll shoot me! They owe me nothing. I chose to have them, not the other way round! A friend who can make you laugh about it all really helps - she calls my parents "The Terminally Ill"!!! Lol

God they all sound so similar. MY Mum also has the pathetic voice. I too have to pick my moment to ring her, put on my jolliest voice and try my hardest to keep the conversation on an even keel and not allow her to ring me down. Over the years I also keep my problems and feelings away from her as if I ever felt down/ill she became so OTT with her fussing/worrying etc. "I didn't get a minutes sleep for worrying about you/I was walkig the floors at 3am worried about you etc" And if I ever cry all I get is "Don't cry, you'll set me off" Cue even louder wailing from her. Thing is she is the Queen on gas lighting. When all this is mentioned to her she looks like I have slapped her accros the face and denies it.

But yes midwife, I have a great friend who knows exactly what my Mother is like, and it is now a standing joke that she refuses to ask my Mother how she is when she sees her or the floodgates open.....

It's as if they have become the children. We have children of our own so are caught in the middle of two sets of juveniles!!! My "favourite" memory is a few years ago when my brother brought a new girlfriend to meet the extended family who were visiting & she shouted across the room at him "the doctor says I've got an infection in my vagina"!!!

Sod feeling guilty or feeling guilt ridden although that is easy to write and hard to do (understatement). But I tell you this much, they don't feel at all guilty. These people do not have any empathy whatsoever.

Narcissists as well are completely averse to therapy because they think they are doing nothing wrong. Even if they do get into therapy which is unlikely narcissists do not do well in therapy.

Dr N - I would seek counselling for your own self regarding your non relationship with your narc mother. Its all about her you see, it always has been all about her. It will remain thus. She is using you as her narc supply.
Anything you do or say is not enough, it is never enough and they always want more. They are true emotional vampires who will bleed you dry.

Re an earlier comment of yours:-
"Her own Mother is still alive, and she has 5 sisters. But sadly, she is not close to any of them........I wonder why?"
Because of the way your mother herself is, she has deliberately alienated herself from her family. These people like your mother have made the terrible choice not to love.

ScaredOf - I don't know why the counselling is so fab actually. I mean I'm just talking. I talk to my husband, I talk on here, I talk to my friends. But after talking to the counsellor I managed to really really get that it isn't my fault, I am not responsible and so on. Somewhere deeper than the front of my mind.

Attila - until I just read your comment, it had never occurred to me that my mother wouldn't experience guilt for our crap relationship. I knew it obviously, but just hadn't ever really thought about it iyswim? That helps somehow.

DrN - my mother cut off from all of her family and all of my Dad's family too, when I was a young child. Part of me feels that since she has always justified why she did that giving the various reasons for it related to the individuals concerned, she will lump me into the rest of them as being 'difficult' or a 'trouble-maker' or whatever reason she uses for me. She won't consider that she is the common denominator.

Just had a 20 min convo with her. As soon as she picked up the phone to me she had her sad voice on. But I had some great news to share that a good friend of mine had a baby today so I bamboozled her with that and she had to ask a few questions....then it was right back to her, how she feels down, and she is ill. When I asked her to expand on being ill. She said she couldn't, she just felt strange, odd, like something was wrong. Then she mentioned the cold shivers again and that she is certain my dad is there trying to tell her he is hurt I mean, how on earth do you respond to that. I told her she must be chilly if she is getting shivers and to put a cardi on.

I then asked if she has been to see the Whale as where she lives a whale was washed up on the beach, and she said she simply couldn't as she would find it too upsetting and break down.

I made my excuses, said I was off to sort dinner.

Feel relieved it's done for today.

This thread is ringing so many bells for me. My dad's mum is like this - she was physically and emotionally abusive to him when he was a child and left him with his grandma when he was about 7 (a blessing) but he still gets the pathetic voice. She also reacted to the death of his dad like a prima diva (and they had been divorced since god knows when).

Thing is, their version of events is so powerful you get sucked in. Look at this thread - all about her! Sit down and ask yourself what you are able and willing to provide for this person. Make it about you and your priorities - job, family, enjoyment etc. I'm guessing she'd be pretty low on the list.

So you decide what you can spare of yourself for her to consume - knowing that nothing will ever be enough but acknowledging whatever you feel your 'debt' to her is.

If that is 2 phone calls of 30 minutes each a week and 2 texts, with visits of one hour on birthdays and christmas - then that is what you do. It will make no difference to her and you will be surprised how easy it is.

Her entitlement does not equal your responsibility.