How important is total trust and honesty when you have pretty much everything else?

[namechangexx]

Long story broken down in a nutshell:

Dp left his drug-addicted wife 8 years ago. We got together. She found out she had a chronic liver disease just after he'd left. He didn't go back but was her main support mechanism through her treatment, wouldn't divorce her becuase he'd caused her enough upset etc.

8 years down the line: she has kicked the drugs, he still contacts her every day. We have 2 children, a mortgage and a comfortable life.

I found out last year (via mobile phone snooping) that he is in contact with her every day (he'd always claimed that he'd had occasional contact, that he divorced a lot later than he'd claimed (he said it was before w had children, turns out it was aftre our first was born). She is still in love with him. i think he has helped enabled this becuase his guilt and thus contact has not let her move on.

It sounds terrible BUT his texts to her are mostly benign (not for one minute do i think he's had any sexual contact with her since he left). What I hate is the fact that I know he has lied to me so many times. We've had counselling, he says he'll be more open but then he can't be. iHe says he deals with his guilt by compartmentalising therefore he doesn't talk about her to me. i think there is a part of him that he won't admit to that likes being her support mechanism and being her strength, plus he sees her as a friend.

He is a great dad, we get on in lots of other ways, we are politically and intellectually compatible. But the ongoing lies and deceit over this has eaten me up over the years to the point where i feel like I'm not sure I want to be in this relationship anymore. We've had 2 sets of counselling, both times he's said he'll be more open, nothing changes.

How would you feel? Should I try harder to compartmentalise too? it's not like his contact with her impinges on our daily lives.

It is Hep C and her treatment didn't work.

No history of addiction or illness in his family but a history of depression and what I would describe as martyrdom though.

I think it's potentially controlling in the sense of not wanting to display vulnerability. So it's self controlling maybe.

Well, he's lying because you want him to stop supporting his ex and he doesn't want to. So he's lying for a quiet life. The only way to resolve this is you either accept his support of his ex, or you walk. Would you insist he stopped giving support to a cousin/sibling/male friend?

Actually I don't want him to stop supporting her. As I've said to him I'd want it to be equivalent to the same support you'd give a friend, I don't think anyone contacts even their bf every single day. Hep c is sh1t but it's a chronic long term condition not a 6 month death sentence.
You're right though, I think he does want a quiet, if not easy, life. I wish I could just turn a blind eye emotionally, I'm such a naturally honest and open person, I find it hard.

I think the problem is not acknowledging his current life to his ex. His ex has a responsibility too and he needs to acknowledge this fact: if his ex wants to continue to receive his support she has to accept that his life has moved on and he has a new family. He should always refer to and acknowledge this new family. I suspect he (wrongly) imagines that the compartmentalising is easier for everyone but it isn't. He can't be two people. His life has moved on and his new family should be his main priority.

I think it's more likely that it is the ex doing the controlling and that he is trying to keep everything on an even keel but going about it in completely the wrong way.

He definitely shouldn't be excluding you. If he continues to do so and won't be more open about the contact, then I think you do have a problem. If he can't see that then you both have a problem.

It's not the same as a male friend, or a friend with whom there has been no close or sexual relationship. There would be no reason to exclude a current partner from such a relationship: they could provide support together. The potential for this to be corrosive is immense.

I once had a huge row with an ex who bought a present for his ex while we were away on holiday. I had no problem with him buying it but told him he should have told me instead of sneaking off to buy it behind my back and trying to smuggle it home. He accused me of being controlling when in fact he was.
But the main thing I wanted to say is that controlling types like him are very often totally laid back -- about the things they don't care about.

You say no history of illness but one of depression, I would say that depression is an illness.

You might want to try reading some of the work of Melody Beattie and see if you recognise elements in that.

Was it Relate you went to OP? And was it about this one issue, or other things?

Fwiw, I think the first step to untangling this is to acknowledge how serious this is for you: that is, that it is causing you to weigh all the positives of your marriage against this one thing.

Is that true?

He's lying because you'll kick off at the amount of communication that really goes on. If you were relaxed/ indifferent he would not need to lie.
I agree with SGB, it's none of your business

compartmentalise. because what you have is worth fighting for.

Yes it was relate, both times he didn't reapply acknowledge the issues.

I agree that compartmentalising is probably the way to go and yes ina way it's 'none of my business'. However I could (for example) have an affair ((I'm not actually going to), compartmentalise, lie about it, and say it's none of his business.

Maybe it's not comparable.

Of course it's your business if your husband has been lying to you throughout your entire relationship.

Are you really not supposed to care that he lied to you about being divorced and had a child with you?

That is an appalling thing to have done.

Wanting to support a friend with problems is one thing, wanting to carry on a secret hero fantasy with an ex is quite another.

I can't stand liars though. I wouldn't even consider putting up with a sexless, lonely relationship with a deceitful man. People who lie for a "quiet life" are worthless, selfish cowards.

OK. I was asking about Relate because I'm wondering why the counsellor didn't really "press" on this issue. The answer to that could be a number of things, eg. one or both of you didn't really want to go through the houses on this; it was one of a number of things you were there to discuss; Relate has a bit of a rep. for being a bit hit and miss with their counsellors - wome are fab., some less so (apologies, Relate, but that's the "word" ).

Here's the thing - this is really bugging you. As you can tell from some of the replies a. for some people/couples this would not be an issue b. in some relationships, this would not be an issue.

The point here is that for you, in your relationship, it is.

So now you have to find out why, and from there decide why it is.

You'd have to be prepared to answer some very honest questions as to why this matters to you, and the answers will probably touch on how the rest of your relationship functions - almost certainly, really. And you'll have to be prepared to hear (and acknowledge) his feelings about all this. The fact that this is still an issue after two Relate sessions suggests that there is stuff that one or both of you is quite unwilling to let go of.

I really don't know what the answers might be. I must admit, my instinct is that there is a control issue going on, and just because of how gender operates, it may well be him. but these things can be quite subtle. So I've no idea, really.

I think (and just my opinion - because I don't know either of you, and have no real special insight, just suggestions) it might be a good plan to accept this really bothers you, and you need to prioritise it. then book some sessions somewhere (even Relate again, though perhaps ask around, and see if you can get a recommendation for a very effective counsellor) and just address this issue. I'm sure you're thinking "But that's crazy", but the thing is, if it's making you really weigh up the pros and cons of staying in the relationship, you should address it head on, and properly, rather than trying to work out who is "in the right" or "in the wrong".

Just my opinion - kick it about, and see how it feels. If it's way off, strike a line through it as an idea that has been thought and then dismissed.

I tend to agree with Spidookly but we have children and family and friendshp networks etc. It's also not a sexless relationship (at least).

I appreciate your suggestions animula and agree - relate can be hit and miss. However our 2nd counsellor was excellent and I still see her on my own. My dp is very articulate and will talk about his contact, apologise to me for lying, admit daily contact is probably wrong, and then leave the room and do exactly what he wants to do again. He was also v reluctant to go, I had to drag him to the three sessions he wanted to go to.

I don't think it's about control, I think it's about guilt, cowardice and wanting a quiet life. I am very independent, have my own life etc and he's not objected to that.

I have felt jealous about his contact with his ex though, when he feels low, I sometimes think he turns to her as an emotional crutch (she is of course always v sympathetic whereas I have 2 children under 5, a demanding job, and am best at offering typically 'male' support eg I tend to make practical suggestions to problems). I worry that I'm past the jealous stage, that I have lost respect for him and don't care anymore.

I don't want to feel like that though :(

You say he wants an easy life, but two main thongs I pick up here are that he is a weak man and he isnt prepared to prioritise his relationship with you over his desire to keep a friendship going.

He is weak because rather than engage with you and explain that he would like to stay in touch with her he lies - telling you he is sorry then simply carrying in is just appalling behaviour. I think people defending his friendship are missing the point - you have clearly been tolerant of that but correctly you see it is too intimate and have expressed your unhappiness.

He is prepared to risk his relationship with you in order to maintain a secret friendship. That is not respectful loving or acceptable.

It's all just so weak - he is not putting his relationship with you first and he doesn't care that he is hurting you or that he might lose you.

Of course it matters that he lies to you - you know that.

I can't understand why having a child means you would stay - loom around mumsnet to see the impact on children of growing up in unhappy homes.

I think animula is spot on when she says that it matters not what would be acceptable for others (although posters were obviously answering the question in your OP) - the fact is, this is not acceptable to you in your relationship. Therefore, I don't think you should persuade yourself to compartmentalise, or ignore your inner voice. That voice is there for a good reason.

I also think the image of a controlling man you might have could be flawed. Someone doesn't have to be possessive, jealous, misogynist or angry to be controlling. In fact some of the most difficult controlling behaviour to spot, is when it is done passively and when someone is child-like, resistant to taking personal responsibility and in the habit of telling lies and keeping secrets. Put simply, these behaviours have the effect of controlling your responses and choices.

When someone lacks the courage to tell people the truth of the situation, it's often not to "have a quiet life" - it's because they want to hide their active choices. He doesn't want you to know how much he has invested in his role as rescuer and protector towards his ex - and he doesn't want her to know how invested he is in his life with you and your DC.

It is always a cop-out to say that people only lie because they will get grief, because that deflects the responsibility away from the liar and unreasonably puts it on to the victim of the lies.

No one is saying it is a GOOD idea to lie for a quiet life, but that is what he's doing, unless he also lies about minor inconsequential stuff

Thanks waterway and wwifn. You're right, it is a problem for me and always has been. I think I need to bring it up with him again, it's always a horrendous conversation that results in him storming off. I hate conflict...
I just think it would be utterly selfish to consider leaving on a single issue (though admittedly lying is a fairly big issue but it's not like he's sleeping with her).

Interesting points about control, will reflect on that.

He does also lie about minor inconsequential stuff but I don't know how often because he's a good liar.

hmm. That's bad

"utterly selfish to consider leaving over a single issue"

there are so many things wrong with this statement I barely know where to start.

Here are just a few:

1 it's not the quantity, but the quality of issues that determines whether they are important enough to leave over

2 looking out for your own happiness when your partner treats you like shit is not "utterly selfish", it's crucial to looking after yourself and your children

3 lying repeatedly to your partner about big things and small things is "utterly selfish"

and one last point on controlling -

fomenting a massive row whenever this is raised, when he knows you dislike confrontation is controlling

this guy is playing you like a fiddle. And he's never going to stop.

You decide what kind of life you want, and what kind of children you want raise.

I won't even be friends with untrustworthy, spineless amoebas like this. They stand for nothing except themselves.

He needs to slowly stop contact if they have no children. She is just a needy ex nothing more. He has been supportive but a monthly call tomsay hi and how are you should suffice. But he is obviously getting something out of this situation that keepsmhim doing it. I think the time has come to give him an ultimatum.

OP do you have control over most of the stuff in your house - finances etc?

I'm asking because I wonder whether DP takes a back seat over that kind of thing and leaves you to it. So maybe (and this is just me thinking out loud here) the situation with his ex is something in which he feels he has some control (following on from WWIFNs comment about child-like resistant passivity and noddyholders comment that he must be getting something out of the situation that keeps him doing it.)

I could be barking up the wrong tree, but I recognise some of his behaviours in myself and just thought I'd ask the question.

Trust and honesty are a MUST in a working relationship. Without it, there is o hope.

*no hope.