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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

mil nightmare

26 replies

wipeyuppie · 24/05/2011 21:01

Does anyone else have a husband that is still terrifed of upsetting his mum and behaves as if our marriage is a total betrayal of his relationship with her? Please tell me some funny stories as the penny has only just dropped as to why the atmosphere at family gatherings has been so strained for years and he is always so difficult, and sulky when we are all together. hey ho,

OP posts:
deste · 24/05/2011 21:54

I think it is more common than you think.

walesblackbird · 24/05/2011 22:12

Quite common I think.

Frankly I think my dh and his mother have quite an odd relationship. She lives 4 hours drive away but comes regularly to visit her daughter who lives nearby. She rarely bothers to tell dh until she's quite literally on the train.

They can spend an hour on the phone talking about the state of the world and never mention anything remotely personal!

And there have been many occasions over the years when dh and I have fallen out over his refusal to support me over the delicate little flower (yeah right) that is his mother!

NanaNina · 24/05/2011 22:40

I know I should keep away from these MIL threads but something pushes me to put in my pennyworth.......I find your post interesting walesbb - I have 3 sons and we very rarely talk about anything personal. I suffered a severe depression last Easter (3 months on a psych ward) and am still not fully recovered (more ups than downs) but still very difficult. My sons visited and sent me flowers and wrote lovely things on cards, and I have recently had an e mail from one son saying how worried he has been about me, but when we actually speak, we don't mention anything personal. I have put this down to them being blokes to be honest as I think they are in the main much less likely to want to talk about feelings.

I am lucky with my dils - but I think it's shame that there is still so much ill feeling between these 2 women (the wife and the MIL) There doesn't seem to be the same friction between men and their MILs unless of course men don't post on MN but my sons have no trouble with their MILs and even if they are sometimes a bit frustrated they don't make a big thing of it.

Seems like this problem between dil and mil is set to continue - is it still the old thing of 2 women fighting for first place with the husband/son.

I do sometimes think that many young women who make complaints about the mil (not on this thread) need to remember that if they have sons
they will in all probability be MILs to young women one day and they may see things a little differently then. Just a thought.

2rebecca · 24/05/2011 23:17

Every other woman on mumsnet seems to have chosen to marry such a wet wuss, going by many of the threads on AIBU. Is there a shortage of men who aren't either wife beating psychos or pushover mummy's boys?
I'm fairly assertive myself though so could probably outdo most MILs in the "don't piss me off if you want to stay with me" stakes.
Having said that I do like a bloke who can stand up to me, but not if he only does that when it's me v his mother.
Some blokes don't seem to have gone through a proper adolescence with all the rebelling against your parents and finding your own path in life stuff. Mind you alot of women remain mummy's girls as well, but presume they would be moaned about in a proper "dadsnet" forum. Certainly if I've watched any moving to a foreign country programmes it always seems to be the women who don't want to leave their mums with their mothers going on about "my family is my life, sob, sob" whilst the blokes look desperate to escape from their MILs.

livinginazoo · 25/05/2011 08:18

Or there is just a fair number of men growing up with dysfunctional/toxic families/mothers, who have control issues and won't allow their sons to go through normal adolescent rebellion and who strongly dislike the change in dynamic when their sons marry.

Point in case, my delightful MIL has let us know she wishes her (very grown up, married with kids) son was still the nice 'boy' he used to be before he met me. (In other words jumped when she shouted, I should obviously have blended quietly into the background and my presence not rocked their boat). I am a fairly quiet vanilla type person btw.

I really wish I had the sort of MIL-DIL relationship that NanaNina describes.

Not any funny stories, but I emphathise with OP. I think the only way to deal with the situation is to slowly miss some of these gatherings yourself and let them get on with it.

When you meet one of these "wet wusses" you don't necessarily realise what is going on, on my part I was eager to please my ILs, young, thought that people were all intrinsically thoughtful, taught to respect elders, and tbh it got a lot worse with our wedding and then children. My OH didn't know the dynamic was not normal, it was what he grew up with. We are becoming wiser. I will be teaching my children to strongly question authority and to respect their own minds!

I do wonder how many of the men described on the relationships board have ishoos that originate with toxic mothers, but that is just my musing.

walesblackbird · 25/05/2011 10:05

My MIL and I really have nothing in common other than I married her son. We're 20 years in now and have managed to develop a relationship but it hasn't been without a great deal of trauma.

We're very different people - she's an academic and assumes her son is the same. He's not. She's horrified that I'm not academic and at one point early in our relationship told me that "this is an academic family - you do realise that?".

The turning point for us was at a family function she turned and said to my sister "you're obviously an intelligent woman - such a shame you haven't achieved anything with your life" and then went on to tell my mother that I was very lucky to have her son!!

After those two incidents I told her son in no uncertain terms that he had to grow a pair. He couldn't do it and so I had very long conversation with her during which I pointed out that what she had said had hurt my family's feelings and that I wasn't able to tolerate it.

We then didn't speak for over a year.

Subseqent to that we've had three children - adopted - and she's been a huge support. She has some knowledge in that field and it's something we've been able to build on and we do now have a supportive relationship.

I have two sons myself and so it's a relationship that I'm very aware of - very aware of the pitfalls! It'll be even harder because one of my sons has had a very difficult life and struggles with every day living and so, I suppose, that makes me very protective of him.

I have a very close relationship with my mother and I try to replicate that with my children. My children can and do talk to me about anything and everything - my husband never had that sort of relationship with his mother. No talk about sex or emotions or anything like that. I do that stuff all the time with my children - boys and my daughter.

DH still finds anything to do with feelings/emotions difficult to talk about. I want my boys to be different to that.

CornflowerB · 25/05/2011 10:12

'Some blokes don't seem to have gone through a proper adolescence with all the rebelling against your parents and finding your own path in life stuff'
2rebecca, that is exactly it. An enormous penny has dropped. Thank you.

mrsbunnthebaker · 25/05/2011 10:15

maybe the wet wusses choose women who are like their mums

i.e. overbearing, controlling and dominant

just a thought lol

bemybebe · 25/05/2011 10:23

My thought exactly.

ScarletOHaHa · 25/05/2011 10:24

The problem between DiLs and MiLs is the man in the middle? Nananina hit the nail on the head by saying 'Seems like this problem between dil and mil is set to continue - is it still the old thing of 2 women fighting for first place with the husband/son.' . If a man child has made a life with another women and have a family THEY are in first place IMO and there is no competition.
MILs can and should still have a close relationship with their adult offspring. I understand my OH is just trying to keep the peace but this means a lot of times everybody is unhappy. DiLs are related by marriage and the nuances of the family situation their OH grew up in can get lost. We will often have different (not better or worse) values and this is bound to cause tension. I have an adult relationship with MY parents and family deal with conflict in a very different and more direct way. My OH's family stew on things and their way to deal with conflict is not to speak.

ShoutyHamster · 25/05/2011 10:38

I posted on this issue on another thread. I find it interesting. My thoughts (if you can possibly wade through it all Grin)

I think that in a the majority of cases (not all, depends on the family dynamic) that once the son grows up and especially when he has a partner and family of his own, there is nowhere for the mother-son, the caring parent-child relationship to 'go'.

Think about it - mother-daughter: daughter grows up, has family - if she and her mother are close (or even if they're not) a different but very familiar and 'stereotypical' (not quite right but can't think of better word) relationship tends to be built as a matter of course - two adult women, many shared interests in forms of family, children/grandchildren - they may share friendship or hobby interests, they gossip, they may shop together or enjoy the same tv programmes (!maybe steroetypical IS the right word after all!) - in short, the mother moves into a different but potentially still close relationship which still involves long chats, one-on-one time, being involved in the minutiae of life, etc. In short still having an 'entwined' life. This doesn't need physical closeness - I know many women who live far away from family but will spend regular time chatting in depth to their mums on the phone.

The typical mother-son relationship probably couldn't be more different in the way it changes. There are many exceptions to this, but in general - how many twenty/thirtysomething men share general interests (shopping, tv, food, chatting about family/kids, general gossip?) with a fifty/sixtysomething woman? How many men are eager (both before marriage/kids are on the scene and after) to pick up the phone and spend time chatting about their day, what the kids said, what happened with that rude guy at work? In the vast majority of mother-son relationships, it seems that part of the issue (and remember my stereotypes disclaimer guys) comes out of the typical differences in the ways men and women tend to communicate and the tendency for the mother to lose that everyday intimacy with a son rather than a daughter.

The mother knows that a fulll, intense everyday life is happening in the son's household, and her most effective way of being party to it (and her son's everyday life, like when he was her child rather than a man) is to communicate with the WOMAN there - her DIL. But perhaps quite naturally she resents that, and it's not what she's looking for. She wants everyday intimacy with HER child, and not one mediated and translated through someone else.

I understand that and can see how many women, when they are told to 'let go', 'cut the apron strings' probably think 'But it's not that!! I don't want to MOTHER him - I just want...' - and they cant really even articulate it, it's just that sense of being made part of the everyday stuff by their son. With this emotion, there's little even the most welcoming DIL can do to improve the sitution.

It would be my guess that the MILs who are genuinely enthusiastic, welcoming, and CRUCIALLY - not interfering in the early days of their son's relationship have a good chance of this sense of loss passing them by, because they end up getting the minutiae, the closeness, through the DIL from the start, and pretty soon it becomes plenty enough to plug the gap. They come to love the DIL quite naturally and see her as family, and without realising it, by osmosis, they get what they need in terms of the relationship with their adult son.

The ones who have problems are the ones who are determined to retain the feeling of what they once had through the son and he won't play ball. He's often oblivious (how many women come on here complaining that they have to remember his mum's birthday, they have to remind him to phone her or she'll be in a sulk not with him but with her, the DIL?) These MILs aren't getting what they need from the relationship but instead of realising that that's simply a function of their adult male son's personality, they interpret it as him withdrawing deliberately, being 'turned against them' or 'taken away' - they blame the DIL. They have to, because the distance being their SON'S default setting is too painful to accept.

Thousands of exceptions to this but I think it's a very common scenario. One poster has spoken of the 'girl preference' thing often talked of on MN - I think we would be naive to not recognise that this is part of where it stems from. I think many mothers look into the future and their relationship with their adult children and can see themselves chatting on the phone to a daughter for hours (because they do that with other women) but not their son (because they don't tend to do it with men). Or enjoying a day shopping or just hanging out (ditto).

MummyFirst · 25/05/2011 11:51

I can sympathise with you on this. My Mil is a pretentious, self rightous snob and tbh God only knows why.

My Mil and Fil think that my DH married beneth him, and to quote Nancy Astor, 'No woman marries beneth them'.

My IL's children all went to university, and all went through the motions of 'growing up respectfully'.

Her attitude was her downfall though as they didn't really provide the love that they needed to become well rounded.

Her DD my Sil couldn't hack it in her chosen profession and after giving a lapdance to one of the senior partners at PWC (years and years ago) at a christmas do, was forced to end up working for her husband. She also married an emotionally detached man, (much like her father) and is now on anti-depressants, leaves the kids to be cared for by friends during the week and has recently been indulging is extra marital relations with her also married next door neighbour.

My Bil Mil's DS2 has jumped from job to job and being the youngest has the wounded badly done to attitude and rapes them of their hard earnt savings regularly despite his wife earning rather a large salary.

My DH seems to be the least scarred thank goodness and I think mainly from being the middle child, and being left generally alone. However I do have to remind him that occasionally I am his wife and I have just as much say as he does about things, and although his mother's opinion can be reviewed it is not crucial.

I have a good 'ish' relationship with my IL's now but it has taken many years to get here. I now take the stance that when they insult or belittle me, that it will be ME that will one day take the decision on what care home they go in, as neither of their other children will be interested and my husband will be unable to handle the pressure of it!!

(Not that I would have them go to the worst I could find, maybe one up from that)!!!

Take it with a pinch of salt and just smile on through the family gatherings that you can't get out of!

greencolorpack · 25/05/2011 11:58

I used to have a great relationship with my MIL.

Then I moved away. Then her health deteriorated and her grandson couldn't live with her so came to live with us.

Now MIL is a nightmare. She was fine where we lived before cos she was in control of things. Now she is no longer the carer for dn, she sees me as "competition" or a rival. Her daughter, dn's mum, lives with her now, my SIL has mental health problems which is why she doesn't raise dn herself.

MIL spends every chance she can get telling me exactly how wonderful SIl is, what a great mother, how much SIL loves dn, and all I hear is "You could be the best caregiver to dn in the world, you still won't measure up to my perfect daughter."

MIL creates drama and stress out of thin air. She tried for a while slagging me off to my dh, he told her to get stuffed (hooray!) and she simmered down for a while.

So we live near one another, now, but hardly see each other, and when we do see each other chances are she will bite my head off about something or other. I mourn the loss of our good relationship.

And dn seeing the tension acts as spy in the camp a lot of the time. Getting less over time now. We don't run down MIL in front of him. We try to keep things positive. It's like living with a child of divorce although nobody got divorced.

LostInTransmogrification · 25/05/2011 12:23

wipeyuppie I think you must have married my ex boyfriend! His DM was a nightmare, from expecting us to take holiday to help her friend move from Jersey (her friend has a grown son but he wasn't expected to help, plus it was sold to me as 'do you fancy going to jersey this summer', wasn't till I asked questions that I realised why we were going), to her grabbing him by the arm on family walks and marching off with him, telling us she was making our wedding cake (we werent engaged!) and inviting us over for the bank holiday weekend so that we could pick up and drop off her visiting friend at the airport (they lived in Lincolnshire but her friend flew into Birmingham so we could pick her up!). We were also told asked to check in on Bfs gran when his parents were on holiday, we drove 2.5 hours, knocked on her door and stood looking in the front door as she took a phone call for 10 minutes before she came to the door. She said 'I'd invite you in but I'm in my dressing gown. Thanks for popping by' and closed the door. We drove the 2.5 hours back to birmingham in silence. The last straw was when bf said that he would always put his mother first ' because she's my mother'. I ran for the hills.

oldwomaninashoe · 25/05/2011 15:17

Shouty hampster has got it spot all, My MIL was vile to all her son's wives but okay to her daughters husbands.
Dh was the first in his family to marry and she wouldn't come to the wedding and forbade FILfrm coming.
Neither DH or I cared, and refused to let it upset us.
She would always make nasty little "asides" and comments in my prescence which I always ignored and then one day I noticed they had stopped!

After she died my FIL had a personality transformation, and his grandchildren had the benefit of a wonderful and invoved grandfather. Dh became very close to his Dad once MIL had died.
To this day I do not understand her motives or actions but am very mindful that I have four sons and no daughters. The son who is "with" a partner no longer "chats" to me, and does not 'phone but I recognise that he has other priorities now.

It is a minefield but any woman that takes on any of my lot deserves a medal and my support.

ScarletOHaHa · 25/05/2011 20:20

Another yes to Shouty and Old woman. If my mum was made snide comments, did not include my OH, was rude, etc... I would immediately say something.

wipeyuppie · 25/05/2011 20:26

My situation is that for years dh and his family made me feel that they were all perfectly normal and that i was the one with the issues - they effectively smashed my self esteem to smithereens. So i did withdrew from family get togethers, but the children were beginning to ask questions. When i resumed contact the atmosphere was the same if not worse than before. I can see that the animosity lies very much with mil and worse of all that my dh is actually fuelling the whole thing. Now feel angry at the realisation that i was bullied for all those years and need to decide how to proceed.

OP posts:
ScarletOHaHa · 25/05/2011 20:48

If you don't want to go then don't. I have told my OH that I will not be attending certain parties and the reason why. I have spent years blaming other people however I now think it is my OHs problem. I tell the truth and say it is nice for the kids to spend time with their dad and to have a lovely time. If my OH doesn't want me to rock the boat then he must support me in other ways. I will negotiate and
It is hard to keep your head about within this group and in such an atmosphere. Keep saying 'it's not me its them'. Chin up x

walesblackbird · 25/05/2011 22:51

I haven't been to my mil's for a few years now. She lives quite a distance away (thankfully) and I am delighted when dh, very rarely, decides to visit her - provided he takes the children - as obviously they still love to see her and her them - and I get to have a whole weekend to myself!!

That way we're all winners.

MIL is visiting her daughter locally all this week and has offered to babysit for our three. Now then, should I tell her that DS2 is having a major wobbly at the moment due to ongoing therapy and other mental health issues and that he's inclined to violence and throwing things .... or not!!

Nah, not an option for us sadly as I know that neither she nor he would cope.

NanaNina · 25/05/2011 23:17

shouty hamster - thank you for your very thoughtful and brilliant post, which I think is absolutely accurate, and have often had to remind myself of the difference between men and woman, and that men don't tend to do the things women do (as you describe). I don't have any daughters (mores the pity) but I do have lovely dils and often spend more time talking with them than my sons. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head I think and now I come to think about it I often used to have to remind my DP to phone his mum, and I know he loved her a great deal, just didn't get round to picking up the phone. I think in the main, men use the phone for giving and receiving information, rather than to chat.

This is quite the best post I have seen on the mil/dil question - so thank you again.

2rebecca · 25/05/2011 23:42

That analysis does tend to presume that all women are keener on communicating than men though. I generally dislike talking on the phone and whilst I'll regularly (once a week or so) phone my extended family I have no intention of taking on my husband's. That's his job, same re remembering their birthdays, sending cards etc. I'm bad enough at remembering my own family's birthdays.
I dislike it when people assume all the boring communicating/ organisational chores should fall to the woman.
I am not my husband's secretary.

m18c16 · 31/05/2011 15:37

my ex m-i-l is as insane as a box of frogs............

some of the things that have happened..............

she has managed to poison the following relationships:

  • 3 x ex-husbands
-my exW (her daughter) and her father (exH no 1), thereby also grand children and grandfather now do not have contact (not spoken in 8 years)
  • none of her own family talk to her or want anything to do with her
  • her father
  • d-i-l and grandson
  • me, and my now exW
  • my mother and sister
  • her son
  • 1x ex boyfried (this was a great one!!).............see below

amongst the things she has done:

keyed exH no 1's new partner's car
let down car tires
posted dog poo through exH no 3's letterbox after split
poured bottles of red wine all over cream carpets of ex-bf
got drunk and passed out while 3yr old grandson played near unguarded swimming pool (this was the most unforgivable)
drink driving (she likes port)
fell out of the loft at 4.30am on a sunday morning(claimed she wanted to tidy it up)
has had restraining orders put on her after harrasment phone calls
recently tried to tap me up for money
.....the list goes on...........................................

......and she can't see that she is the common denominator in all the mayhem

I think I'll have to write a novel...............

Anniegetyourgun · 31/05/2011 16:02

Everyone would say you'd made the MIL character too extreme to be credible though, wouldn't they!

m18c16 · 31/05/2011 19:24

...... it's all true, i have not made any of this up........................ I have witnesses for it all, and witnessed it all in person......................... I agree it may sound implausible, but it all happened, and still continues despite that I'm not with her daughter anymore, though the grandchildren (my children) are now the new theatre of war in her eyes and so her insanity continues.....................

I find it partly hilarious, partly sad and quite honestly very very worrying in what she may unleash next

........possibly a non-fiction book then? :o

EldritchCleavage · 01/06/2011 11:11

I also agree with Shouty.

I think her analysis explains why MIL and I had a fairly good relationsip (she died last year). MIL was not a great mother. She was both hard on and distant from DH, but worshipped narc SIL (whole other thread). So she and I never competed over DH (a 'little sod', as she frequently told me).

I think she saw the marriage and the prospect of grandchildren as a second chance. She befriended me, adored DS and used her newly-extended family as a means of getting a bit closer to DH.

Given their treatment of DH I'd have been quite happy to keep PIL at a distance but DH desperately wanted their good opinion. In the end, MIl rather redeemed herself.