can we break the narc cycle?

[connectionwishes]

I have been lurking here for a long time and decided to bite bullet and ask for some advice as MNers seem to be very good at support as well as blunt when you need it...

My mother has always beena handfull, ruined family occasions and just been a huge pain. I love her as she is my mum and when she is in a good mood, she is fine, but you can't predict when she will switch. She does take meds for depression, but refuses to get help for her issues as she doesn't want to talk about stuff. Sadly i am the main vent for her aggression / nastiness when it rears it's head. There is so much i could put here, to document her actions but i fear i may run out of space. After reading other threads and hopping over to a reccomended website, i have clicked that she most definitly has NPD. After a bout of councelling (which i can no longer afford) i am trying to change how i deal with her. But two things are worrying me quite badly at the minute, that i would like some advice / help with.

1. My DP and i are ready to have #2 and have decided to TTC later this year. I adore being a mummy and can't wait. But how on earth do you stop the cycle of bad relationships with mum and daughter? my mum is only just building bridges with my grandmother but it's rocky. yet both of them are close to their sons. i desperatly don't want to continue this if i have a daughter. (i never had this fear with a boy)My mum always said she would be different to hers, but she has become her in so many ways (not that you can tell her that as it kicks off another ME ME ME episode). What happened to make her forget all those promises and how do i keep them?

2. how do you forget what has been done on special occasions to shift the focus on to her? i have done my best to forget most of it so i don't get eaten up by bad things in my life like she has been (still bring stuff up from 20 years ago given chance) but she did some awful things when i had my son,in the first week i brought him home, all for attention and to have the situation how she wanted, you'd think she had a baby and i just incubated it for her at times(another rant altogether)

3)if you can get past the things that have been done, how do you let go of the fear and worrying what she will do next time the situation arises? like when we have #2?

any advice or stories from other people that have overcome issues like this would be greatly appreciated. (im sorry it's such long post)

You have to be quite ruthless. Keep her out of important developments in your own life, like ttc and having a baby. Don't make excuses, just say No. Apologise for hurting her feelings, if you like, but no guilt is necessary!

It might be helpful for you to think of specific incidents from when you were little, and how you'd approach them differently with your own daughter. Do you know any little girls? I'm assuming you do - try to see them for what they are: young children, full of hope and wonder, and get to know them for themselves. See how it goes :)

Yesterday I met a 16-day-old baby :) So tiny, helpless, and so full of promise - how could a grown woman look at a baby like that & see a threat, a sexual rival, a marriage-breaker? My mother did. Which proves that my mother's bonkers.

I won't be of much help but I was so relieved to have two boys as I was so frightened of history repeating itself. It is a good thing that you are looking into this before TTC. I would like to say, though, that if you have ever wondered if you have NPD it is highly unlikely that you do as people with NPD are simply incapable of looking deep into themselves - they are always right and everyone else is wrong.

My mum has actually made every single one of my important life events about herself. She was completely out of control with the birth of my DS1. However, she was so completely nuts that I finally had a lightbulb moment and thought she is off her rocker and that she wasn't eccentric or over-protective but a selfish cow. Ultimately it was very freeing.

I am sure you will be a great mother to a DD. You can learn from your mother's mistakes.

I come from a whole family of narcs, and my ex-H had a family full too. I have a fantastic relationship with my daughter as well as my son.

It was touch and go for a while with my son, but that was before I realised just what the problem was.

I have had nearly two years of psychotherapy, which has really helped me. If you are aware of the problem, and worry about yourself, you are not going to repeat those mistakes. Narcs have no self-awareness of course, and so can never see their own issues.

I am not the perfect mother, of course, but i am a million times better than my own mother was and is!

Daughters are a joy, as are sons of course, but I am sure you will be fine.

I never tell my mother ANYTHING. I keep it all superficial. Sad but the alternative is too dreadful to think about.

Thank you for the replies, i had been worried about be having NPD as i can have odd times where i have a bad temper (although this is prob just PMT since i had my LO, not really had it before don't shout just get very grouchy) im no where near my mothers outbursts and DP assures me im nothinng like her. But it's so scary that my mum can demand so much attention from all around her for issues with her immediate family, but cannot see when i have (on very rare / brave occasions) pointed out her issues. She actually almost rolled the car we were in once due to her temper. i was worried what are prob normal temper might be me not seeing it for what it really is :( just like her.
I have a DSD and i don't have any of these worries with her, im assuming that this is becuase gentically i can't 'affect' her. It sounds daft, but thats the best way for me to explain it. we have a really good realtionship, which im very proud of.
My mum can show me that she loves me and i know she does, but not in the way you'd wish it. It's more about material things, which im not very good a recieving, which annoys her. But like you TCF i have yet to have an important occasion that she hasn't ruined for me. The birth of my son was to be THE one time she wouldn't. I invited her to the birth (hormones (confused) ) she got in a huff when i didn't want her to touch me, moaned that DP didn't give baby to her to hold when i got out of theatre, i hadn't held baby FFS! and then moaned that DP wasn't very nice to her and grandma and was moody when they got home. She packed her bags swanned off to grandmothers and then got my dad to call and have a go on my first day back at home with newborn, that we'd made her feel unwelcome and told her to leave. She told me she was giving us space just before she left. when she came back and i pointed out that DP had lost his daughter in that hospital and we had been in emergency sitaution, which will have scared shit out of him, he was in no mood to entertain. Her response was 'well he should have said' but that was ages ago and he had more kids since then, so he should be over it by now'. This is the senario (shortned and in less detail) that i can't forgive / foget and im terrified of what will happen next time when i try to shut her out.
GWG, i have tried more and more since i met my DP (who is amazing at supporting me) to distance myself and keep stuff from her. Since i had LO i have put my foot down and will be willing to stand up to her, with DP should she dare to behave the way she has in front LO. sadly this is likely to split the family from me when the next big one comes.
I just don't understand like Garlic butter how my mum could look at me as a child love me and swear to protect me, then treat me the way she always has. something must of changed and i don't know what?

Well to a narc babies are fine as they have no opinions of their own and are entirely dependent on the parent. It's when the child starts to get ideas of their own, and to question the rubbish that comes out of the narc's mouth that the trouble starts.

Among other issues, they have problems with seeing their children as separate from themselves, so everything that happens to you is happening to them in their heads. And of course it is all about them, so everything has to be turned around to that.

You really have to get hard and tough though, otherwise they just will not hear you. No point being subtle with a narc. Hit them where it hurts and hit them hard. It does make you a very hard person, but it has to be done. Otherwise you just end up depressed and suicidal, and that's no good for your kids, or you!

If you split the family, well it's their loss frankly. Your own and your children's mental health should be what comes first. Why should you worry about their feelings? When was the last time they worried about yours?

'Well to a narc babies are fine as they have no opinions of their own and are entirely dependent on the parent. It's when the child starts to get ideas of their own, and to question the rubbish that comes out of the narc's mouth that the trouble starts.'

That comment makes a lot of sense, since my mother isn't really interested in what i have to say. i've lost count of the amount of times she has ruined things / made me feel crap. Yet she wonders why i don't voluntarily hug her!? yet i still have periods where i look for hers and my dad approval. If it doesn't involve me being thinner or some thing financial gain, it often gets met with silence. i will be tough and i think one more outburst in front of or to do with DP / LO then i will cut her out until she gets help. Not seeing me would be likely to make her pissed of and allow her to make a drama for attention, but not seeing LO would really hit her where it hurts, so might be catalyst she needs to get help. Of course ultimatley i always hope that there wont be another one...:-/

It really helps me to think of my mother as a young child! Lots of people with narcs in their lives will tell you they can see what age their N 'stuck' at (this is probably true, psychologically) - my mother's six

If I tell her about any complex issues, I keep it appropriate to a primary-age child. I expect no more emotional support from her than I would from a kid. Like a six-year-old, she curries favour with gifts and offers rotten presents to show resentment.

Going back to your DS birth story, I remember my brother being born when I was seven; it was a home birth. I was most awestruck by this brand-new boy, and also rather peeved that I wasn't allowed to play with him or get much attention at all! I was only 7, couldn't be expected to understand grown-up stuff ... sound like anybody you know?

Can I just say that when you have your own children you treat them totally different to how your parents treated you if they were bad parents.

I treated my children so different to how I was treated because my parents were cold and unloving, my mother only ever talks about herself and is only interested in her.

My children know they are loved and cared for.

You will be different with yours it won't be the same. Don't let your mother tar what you could have with your children.

That is great advice about treating them like a small child. Obviously you wouldn't expect any emotional support, pratical help or selfless love from a small child - Narcs are just like 6yr olds. Uncanny.

should have said, she's emotionally 6yo. She's intelligent & well-read, so I can use long words, etc. I just don't expect her to get any complex emotional concepts.

CrackFox :)

Yes garlic - my mother is 2 years old. She has tantrums like a 2 year old, interrupts everyone, has no sense of boundaries or any social skills at all. She is always right, even about things she has absolutely no knowledge of at all.

If you pick her up on anything, she first denies, then says she didn't mean it, then cries, then gets nasty. It's a 2 year old with a very vicious streak, which most 2 year olds don't actually have.

Mine is also the tantrumming type who also lies a lot if she is challenged. She has a penchant for taking things (it's her against the world and she likes to win, so it isn't exactly stealing, more sticking it to the man iykwim). Somewhere between 2 and 6 sounds right.

My mum was a narc and I was so worried when I found out I was having a girl that our relationship would be similarly awful. I suffered from some post natal depression after the birth probably as a result of this.

My DD is 4 now and so far it's going well! I found it a bit uncomfortable to start with having to stop and assess how to deal with any situation (and generally do/say the opposite of what mum would have), but now it's instinctive.

I would suggest that you read some books on Narcissistic relationships, if you haven't already, to give you some ideas on how to deal with your mum. I would strongly suggest you don't have her anywhere near you when you next give birth, but you've probably realised this already!

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread in detail, but yes, you can stop a cycle of bearing narcissistic children/ having bad relationships. Extremely narcissistic people have more problems than just having a bad temper (as I'm sure you know).

Fundamentally your mother is sensitive to criticism and needs external validation to prop herself up, flying into a rage if she doesn't receive it. Now it looks like you also seek validation/ approval from your parents in order to be OK with yourself, perpetuating the cycle (though not to the same extreme). A big difference is that you have insight into this need. Make sure you don't repeat this pattern with your own children. Make sure your aim is not to make your children "a means of meeting my needs for admiration/ a sense that I am OK". Focus on making sure they know they are loved for who they are, not for what they do or a purpose they serve.

Circle of Security is a fantastic program aimed at developing a healthy attachment/ relationship between parent and child, the website itself offers some good information/ links: www.circleofsecurity.org/

Regarding worrying about your mum's reaction to future children: I wouldn't invite her to the birth, to start with. Seems a bit unreasonable for her to expect to be there at such an intimate time? Does she need to have such a central role in your parenting/ family?

I agree with others - it will help to massively distance yourself and see that your mother's emotional maturity is that of a young child, and treat her accordingly (at least in your own mind!).

As well as the things on this thread, I wonder if anyone else has this is their narc relationships, one of the things I cannot get my head around is the utter jealousy that has been obvious from when I was young.

Cant bear that I was academically successful, couldnt bear that I had a nice figure in my teens, desperate to sabotage relationships........

Ive noticed the only time I get anything resembling interest is when im overweight miserable and doing terribly. As sson as im getting better / losing weight the nastiness starts and I will get the horrible comments and things thrown back in my face. Its like a constant competition.

Pigglesworth, I need to say Thank you. i have been thinking about your comments today and they make total sense. I am intelligent and sucessful in my own right, but i do look to my parents for reassurance, in the vain hope that they would accept me as i am and take back things like they are disappointed i didn't do more for myself. i have now made a promise with myself that if i think something i have done is to be proud of, then that will be enough for me to feel confident. it will take some time, but i already feel better after you shedding a light on something i hadn't quite seen properly. As for the birth, i knew whilst in labour last time NEVER again:) she'll be lucky if she is allowed to visit in first week next time & def not staying.

As for all the ladies that suggested the narc being like children, well that has made me smile and i hope will be a very useful tool for dealing with her from now on. All i have to decide is what age she is stuck at and go from there...

Fabbychic, i am often told that i am a good mum and DC is a relaxed and happy child becuase im so relaxed with him. i really want this to be the case always, but it's hard to accept praise as im so used to being run down for my efforts my narc mum and i often assume he was just born this way. But every day i tell him i love him how proud i am off all his acheivments as much as possible. we're already very huggy and cuddly and he loves to say i love you and give kisses, so i hope we are off to a good start.

my DP has the best relationship with his mum (one that i wish i could have) and she is wonderful to me. So i shall be using a lot of her methods and ideas as a basis to continue a healthy relationship with my children. rather than my mums.

NullsInVerba ref the jealousy thing, it wasn't something i had concidered until a year ago. My best friend who has know me since school confided that they had always though she was jealous with the way she behaved.There are many occasions where i didn't understand what i had done to recieve huge backlashes from my mum for seemingly small things, i just got used to her behaving this way towards me. but it now makes more sense. when i wanted to go to college to study something i was good at, (her career too that she had to give up), she went nuts saying i was no good at it etc. then when i decided to put myself thorough uni she told me it was a bad idea and i'd fail. when i corrected her for saying i failed all my exams (got A's & B's) this was the incident she nearly crashed the car as i was accusing her of not taking interest in my uprbringin, she woudln't do that as it was what her mother did to her blah blah. she was actually jealous that i may steal her thunder over 'family issues'. she does all this then loves to talk about how fickle i am never stick to things, no wonder with such a loving supportive mother! (ps i just changed my mind on my life path like normal people, she can't stick a hobby for more than few weeks, but you can't tell her that.lol)

So here's to a more positive outlook on life dealing with my x yr old mother from a distance and making sure my kids never have to deal with what we did:)

That's wonderful, thank you for the update. :) I'm sure your mum wouldn't be thinking about these issues in such detail, so the fact that you are so concerned means in itself that you will do everything you can not to repeat the cycle, and you're doing an amazing job thus far!

Regarding the jealousy - looks like another example of her seeing your potential achievements as a threat to her own sense of self. If you can accomplish the things she failed at, then what does that say about her? She's probably told herself a story that justifies her life course and allows her to feel comfortable with her failings (and over time, not see them as failings). But you succeeding where she has failed threatens that story and therefore her sense of self. So she will do everything she can to stop you from doing things that will threaten her shaky sense of self (without having any insight into what she's doing).