Is this a healthy relationship or not?

[MondayCrap]

Because I am truly confused. I have namechanged BTW because I want to be completely open about this.

We've been married for about 15 years. DH is a good man and a good husband. He works hard, always puts me and the DC first, does everything he can for us and does as much around the house and with the DC as I do. We still fancy each other a lot and there is still chemistry there. We get on really well, have a laugh and enjoy each other's company and have a fantastic relationship in every way - apart from one problem.

He has a much higher sex drive than I do, and always has had. I am happy to go a week without having sex - longer if I'm unwell, overtired, have PMS, whatever. He would ideally be at it most nights. Before we had the DC I would quite often go along with his advances even if I wasn't particularly feeling up for it, as usually I would get into it and enjoy it and enjoyed the intimacy. But since we've had DC I get more tired and feel more 'put upon' generally, and have 'gone along with it' less and less over the past few years. We would sometimes have arguments about it, which would usually end with him saying ok, he didn't want me to do it if I didn't have my heart in it, but he wished I wanted to more.

Recently I've been feeling like I've gone off it more and more. I think the years of feeling under pressure to be 'up for it' has actually turned me off so my sex drive is even lower than it may naturally be, because in my head sex has turned into a chore that I'm expected to do, rather than something I choose to do because I enjoy it.

Anyway, we talked about it a lot over the weekend. We had planned a weekend on our own to have some time together - the DC were with family members for a sleepover. But instead of having sex, we spent most of the time talking about why we don't and why I don't want to. DH is really trying to understand, he says he doesn't want our relationhips to suffer because he loves me and wants us to be ok. And he doesn't want me to do anything when I don't feel like it. But as much as he's trying to be ok, I can see that he's really sad about the whole thing and obviously wishes we did things more.

So - what I'm wondering is - am I being a bitch of a wife by not just making more effort to have sex every couple of days,even when I don't want to. He is lovely and treats me really well - so should I be making a 'compromise' and just do it more to make him happy and help our relationship? Or does doing that mean that he is controlling me and making me do something I don't want to? Do I have every right to not want sex as much as him? I suppose the question I can't answer is - if he wants sex every night and I want it once a week (if that) - who is being reasonable and does compromise come into it with something as personal as sex?

I see so many threads on here where people are told that their H is being abusive and controlling by wanting certain things, it has really made me question things. I am so confused Am I sitting back and allowing a perfectly good relationship to go down the pan?

Sorry this is an essay.

I think your relationship in general and the way you have both sat down and talked about this issue together means your relationship is very healthy.

A lot of people will come on here and say "No no you should never have sex unless you are 100% in the mood, don't make yourself etc". Personally, i find that the quickest way to make me feel more 'up for it', is to have more sex in the first place. So yes I would 'go along with it' a bit more and then hope that your natural sex drive returns anyway. HOWEVER it needs to be a two way street- if you say to him- YES we will have sex twice this week, then you commit to doing that and instigating it but in return he is not to nag, pressure you or sulk if its not that night. He needs to understand as you said that "I think the years of feeling under pressure to be 'up for it' has actually turned me off so my sex drive is even lower than it may naturally be, because in my head sex has turned into a chore that I'm expected to do, rather than something I choose to do because I enjoy it." and so pressuring you is goign to have the exact opposite outcome of what he/you both want.

quoting AWT I think your relationship in general and the way you have both sat down and talked about this issue together means your relationship is very healthy. A lot of people will come on here and say "No no you should never have sex unless you are 100% in the mood, don't make yourself etc" I try to get in from a different angle
Apart from his nagging (allow me to call it that way) and the normal up and downs in libido especially when children comes along, is there anything at all that may have put you off intimacy : weight gain, less time for yourself, no sport/physical activity or time to pursuit your personal interests. Do you have some time off family just to stroll around and have a girly night?
Would you like any of the above? I always found that my libido would benefit if I could take some time off from the routine

I think things have to be taken in context. I often hate the all to common MN "he's abusing you" everytime a man does something the woman dislikes.

If he is otherwise a good father & husband, treats you with respect and love then I think the obvious solution here is to compromise. He understands constant nagging for sex puts you off and backs off with the daily demands. You on the other hand put extra effort in.

Often you will find that once you get going, you will enjoy it, if you allow yourself to.

Taking everything you've said at face value your relationship sounds very good to me. I suspect the problem is simply that you have mismatched libidos and you haven't yet found an effective way of dealing with it that suits both parties. This is incredibly common.

If you're feeling brave, you could try some sex therapy. Probably a less dramatic solution however would be to do some research on the Internet about sex therapy or buy some books on the subject.

Apparently, one of the first things a sex therapist will do is ban you from having sex for 2 weeks as this normally has the effect of reawakening the libido of the less interested person because they no the pressure is of. During this period of abstinence, the other person can learn about what other physical sensations you enjoy (e.g. a massage that doesn't have to result in sex at the end), which is a way of re-establishing intimacy etc.

Good luck.

know (not 'no' - grr)

Yes I have put a bit of weight on since the DC but I don't think that is what puts me off - DH makes it clear he still fancies me and so I still feel attractive (if that doesn't make me sound 'up' myself!).

It might be more what you're saying about not having time to myself. We both work, and weekends are full on with doing things for the DC. DH is good at mucking in and does as much to sort out evening meals, baths, etc with the DC in the evenings as I do. But whereas I seem to sit down come about 9pm when everything is done and think 'right now I can veg out/fall asleep on the sofa/do nothing', DH wants us to then use that time to get intimate. Then I just think 'oh FFS now there's another demand being made on my time'. I know that probably makes me feel like a selfish cow

I dont think that your DH is in any way abusing you.

Not wanting sex is a common thing for (most) women, especially when you have a lot on your plate, kids, work, house etc etc.

Talking about how you are both feeling is healthy, trying to find a compromise is even better.

For me, 'going along with it' now and again is a sure way to get me wanting more and enjoying it more. It is the "switching off" from being a mum/wife/general dogsbody to 'sex kitten' that I find hard to do, but once I get going I am fine.

Not saying in ANY way that you should always have sex if you dont want to, just saying that for me, sometimes a bit of foreplay can and does get me in the mood for more.

PS I really appreciate all the replies - and am very happy to hear that I'm not considered to be in a bad relationship just because of H's high sex drive. I have put off posting about this before because of the fear of everybody telling me that I'm being abused/controlled or something equally bad.

DH is a good man, and I do think he probably can't 'help' having a high sex drive, any more than I can help having a low one. But I do want to try to do something about it.

Ah monday I know that feeling and DH and I have come to understand that we both still want sex, but at different times of the day.

Evening for me is a 'chill out' time, kids in bed, dogs sorted, house done, dishwasher stacked etc, for DH it is "aha, lets do it"

mornings are better for me, more chilled - kids off to school, alas DH works and is out of the house by 6ish most days... its all about compromise.

how about you both take a couple of afternoons off work when children are at school and just relax, take things as they come, no pressure?

MondayCap ... I stick to my first bit, he sounds nice and helpful, try to shedule in a night a week/fortnight for yourself, go out or simply lock yourself in the bathroom to wax/dye hair (I would go out) or yoga on a matte
Also get a babysitter for a night out with him
Got to have some adult time

See I disagree that she should just go along with it and that will help bring back feelings of desire. She's been doing that for years anyway and the problem is getting worse, not better.

I think the only thing that will help bring back desire is a period of celibacy (to remove the pressure) followed by a period of her DH wooing her and exploring with her the things that really do turn her on.

Coffee you have a point there, generally by the evening I'm knackered. But if we ever get time to have a lie in in the mornings, I am usually in the mood .

I think this sounds okay. There is hope :) I always think in these situations, it's not the sex drive difference which is the actual problem, but the way it's dealt with. You say he's "sad" and "really trying to understand" - an abusive man would be angry, and you'd be telling us how you couldn't get him to understand, not that he was trying. Also I notice how you said that sex seems to have become a chore to you, rather than him treating it as something you "should" be doing and aren't doing to his satisfaction.

That's the difference IMO between your (generally healthy but possibly having a blip) relationship and an unhealthy one.

So - it seems like the main problem here is communication. He wants to understand, and you can't articulate it in a way that he can. Neither of you are sure what to do to help the other, although you are both sad about the situation in general. I think sex therapy would probably be very beneficial to you as a couple, just to bring in a neutral third perspective, and allow you both a safe space to talk, and because the counsellor will be experienced she might even be able to dig deeper and find out what the real issue is (because perhaps you're not quite sure yourself?)

I don't think you should "give in" and do it when you don't feel like it, because that's not fun for anybody. If your DH knows you're not really in the mood he's not going to enjoy it, and if you're doing something you don't really want to, that's going to start making you feel used, I'm sure this is the last thing either of you want.

Just some other thoughts because I have to take DS to the childminder and don't have time to write this coherently:

(This is a bit garbled) Do you (and DH) consider your DH's higher sex drive as more or less of a problem than your lower sex drive? Or do you solely think it's you with the "problem"? Perhaps worth thinking about what normal sex drive variations are (lower libido is extremely common when you have young children and tends to be temporary, if your partner is respectful during this time) and accepting that you both have differences at the moment.

Also thinking about what particularly it is that he misses about sex - the intimacy? - and whether other things can fulfil this longing, or whether he can put it on hold for a while (or a combination) And you as well. Think about what specifically it is which you are finding off-putting about sex at the moment.

Then with both lists, you can see if there is anything you can do for now which provides that intimacy but doesn't trigger anything unpleasant for you. If you're finding it hard to talk about these things honestly for fear of hurting each other, then write your own lists in private - agree not to share these - and then go over it and re-word it in a way which sounds less immediately offensive. So instead of "I just can't be bothered, it seems so much effort for something which isn't that fun for me" something like "I'm extremely tired after looking after children all day and I just don't want to do anything which requires energy"

I'm going to be late so I'll come back with the rest. I want to say something about pressure/implied pressure/unintentional pressure/pressure you are putting on yourself, etc.

What I wanted to say about pressure is that I think it's one of the most often overlooked, but most destructive forces on a person's sex drive. Probably overlooked because it's so pervasive, and probably seems impossible to remove every single aspect of pressure, but I don't think it is, once you understand what they all are and where they come from.

Firstly direct pressure from a partner - the most obvious. It doesn't sound like your DH is doing this, at least not in an aggressive/conscious way. That's a really positive sign and most likely means any pressure you are feeling is either down to you or your interpretation of things. It also means it's likely he'll be receptive to helping you reduce the pressure you are feeling.

Secondly there is implied pressure, so coming from a partner, but just them making you aware that they are horny/missing sex/want intimacy (even non-sexual intimacy) or making slight hints to the above, either in an attempt to gauge your receptiveness, or unconsciously. This is most likely completely innocent on their part, it's your own guilt or the pressure you are putting on yourself which is meaning you interpret it as pressure. Next time you notice this happening, try not to feel guilty, just take it in the same way you would as if your DH were to make a comment about how he wishes he could be lying on a beach in the Bahamas. It doesn't mean "I want this NOW and how could you be so selfish??", it just means "I know I can't have this right now, and I'm fine with that because I know it would be completely unreasonable/unrealistic to actually go and do it, so I'll just think about it instead". If you still find it bothers you, you could ask him if he could try not to say certain things.

Also related to this is historical(? I'm just making these terms up) pressure, so for example if you are avoiding cuddling in bed because that is what you used to do before sex, don't avoid it, just clarify, either in the moment or beforehand in general. A cuddle can just be a cuddle. Don't think that if you reciprocate with the cuddle, that means you have to do anything else. He does need to be aware if you are avoiding intimacy because of feeling like you are leading him on or setting him up for disappointment, either because he is consciously or unconsciously taking these actions as signs you are up for sex, or because maybe he isn't and you need that reassurance from him that he isn't and that he won't push anything. It's almost like you have to build all that confidence up again that you are "safe". So start like a teenager with holding hands being the most frightening thing ever, moving up to cuddling, kissing, etc.

Then the fourth is pressure you are putting on yourself. This is what I was trying to say in my last paragraph on the last post. Do you feel you are the sole one with a "problem" here? You said in your OP "Am I sitting back and allowing a perfectly good relationship to go down the pan?" - it sounds like you feel the responsibility is yours and yours alone, and it's not. Your DH wants to understand, so you need to work together. But even if he's being really conscious of his language and body language, even if he has absolutely no desire to make you have sex you don't want to have, you are putting pressure on yourself, because you feel you "should" have sex, because society tells you so, because you feel you are the one who is "abnormal" while he is "normal", and because you are aware that he feels sad about the current situation and you feel like you are being selfish. This is both the most important one and the hardest one to overcome. Without recognising that you are putting pressure on yourself, it's going to be so much harder for any kind of method to work. Even things like if you put a complete ban on sex for a period of time, you need to be aware that you will most likely put pressure on yourself for the ban to "work" and make you magically want sex again, and it won't while you keep feeling that pressure. One way to get around that is to make the ban longer than you think you would ever need, although if currently your feeling is that you'd be happy to never have sex ever again, that probably won't work either.

That's really long, I'm sorry!

mondaycrap i totally understand -DH and i are very similar, only in our case we are unable to talk about it as openly as you have and it is causing big problems in our marriage (we have a 2yo dd and a 2month old ds too).

Bertie - so, so interesting, and very helpful - thank you for all that you wrote. It helped me as well as the OP! I would send a grateful hug except that that is very un-MN so instead have a on me.

Sounds very healthy the way you have sat and discussed this. He doesnt sound abusive to me, no.

But what I will say is I dont think once a week is unreasonable. Especially when you have been married 15 yrs and have children.

If there is a "problem" then I would be saying its him with a high sex drive, not you with a low one.

If you are tired and not in the mood then giving hand relief or oral sex might be helpful in recognising his needs within your marriage and allowing yours to co-exist happily.

Excellent analysis and advice, Bertie. Relate should beg you to go and work for them.

You're both being reasonable but you sound incompatible.

Thanks for all the advice - and thanks Bertie - I feel like I've had a free counselling session after reading your posts . You've given me lots to think about and I think it will be really helpful.

singout I disagree that we're incompatible. We are so compatible in every other way; our outlook on life, our goals, our beliefs, and I still really fancy him and find him funny and good company. That's why I really want to sort out the difference in this one area before it causes problems in other areas too.

I dont think your being abused , but i would urge caution , as i am concerned that youve previously gone along with it . Im also a bit concerned that hes "trying to understand " . What is hard to understand ? He would like to do it every night and your ok with once a week , end of . He doesnt have to understand , hopefully your not providing reasons and trying to justify it , he just needs to accept it .

If it continues to be talked about , or justification needs to be provided by yourself , youll have to look at it again.

I think it's hard to switch immediately from loving mum to loving wife. I understand totally what you mean about sitting down at nine o'clock and just wanting to relax for a bit - intimacy can seem a chore then, another demand.

Is there any way you can do something with your evenings so that you have more time? Can one of you bathe the children whilst the other does the kitchen, so that you can finish earlier.

What time do the children go to sleep? I would think it's hard to feel sexual until they're flat out. Maybe that's just me.

Can't add to your excellent replies here, especially Bertie's superbly thoughtful posts :)

Just wanted to say:
[a] Your relationship does sound healthy! I'm quick to point out when a poster's being bullied to have sex, but this isn't the same thing - however, see BB's points above.
[b] Compromise is always necessary during the course of a LTR, nobody's libido is fixed for life. Compromise means BOTH people taking account of the other's needs, not just one.

I hope your thread continues for a while. It's ace!

Google 'goats weed' :)