DH and second baby, different this time?

[theotherone]

I'm a regular but I name change quite often.

DH and I are about to try for our second baby. We already have a four year old. There are several reasons why we haven't tried to get pregnant again yet, money being the main one, but the one I want to post about is the way DH behaved when I was pregnant and our child was a baby.

Despite it being a planned pregnancy, and us being profesional, home owning types in our very late twenties, I now realise he wasn't really ready to have children.

He didn't do anyting truly terrible like affairs, etc. but he was quite nasty to me at times when I was pregnant. I'm thinking of things like complaining about me walking too slowly, complaining about spending money on maternity clothes (if I bought any clothes, he would have to buy some too ), throwing a tantrum because I didn't want to go abroad on holiday while heavily pregnant and saying he would go without me, telling me I was ruining his life because I was no fun anymore, etc. We had a lot of rows when I was pregnant and he said some very spiteful things, and seemed unbale to understand that pregnant women get upset easily.

When the baby was born, it was as if he got bored of the whole thing pretty quickly. He tried to talk me into stopping breastfeeding (for reasons I still have never managed to find out) by telling me he didn't think I was doing it right , made jokes to other people about my post-natal body, moaned about not feeling involved yet turned down most opportunites to bath, change or cuddle the baby. He tried to continue his social life, hobbies and interests as though nothing had changed. I spent a lot of weekends on my own with the baby. We went on holiday when our baby was small with other people and he tried to plan that he did lots of activites with the other people and left me at the cottage with the baby. He kept saying 'but it's my holiday' as if he could not grasp what a family holiday was supposed to mean.

Our child was the loveliest baby ever, so easy going and easy to look after, and I was so happy as a new mum, but my memories of the first year are spoiled by feeling angry at DH and feeling that we weren't a proper family.

Four years on, we have come a long way. He is very involved with our child now, and has said vauge things about his behaviour when our child was younger like 'Next time, I'll know what to expect/I learned a lot last time' but has refused to discuss it any further. He denies that some of the things that he did ever happened.

I am quite scared that he will let me down again with a second baby. If I try to talk to him about it, that's when he says things like 'Well, I'll know what to expect now' and then refuses to talk about it any more. I don't think he understands how let down by him I felt. I am really anxious at the thought of doing another pregnancy where I don't feel supported and looking after another baby while it feels like he has effectively gone AWOL.

Do you I should just accept that he has realised the error of his ways, as he has indicated?

I am sorry to be harsh, but it one thing to be a great dad to a four year old, and another to be a great dad to a newborn baby, let alone a new born baby plus a four/five year old. It may not be so much that your DH has changed, rather that the circumstances of his parenting have changed.

I think perhaps you are clutching at straws with the subtle clues. I don't blame you - I've done it too.

If you are committed to the relationship, and not absolutely desperate to have DC2, it might be better to stick with the status quo. A new baby could put you back to square one and beyond.

Hmm.

I would see the important bit of your sentence above is not 'getting the grovelling apology' but 'getting what you would like.

He behaved appallingly. He is now asking you to have faith in him not to do that again, but refuses to climb down from his high horse and actually prove to you in any meaningful way that he has changed. Because that would mean - what? Him feeling embarrassed to be reminded of his failings? Feeling annoyed that he has to apologise clearly? Not. Good. Enough.

I would not be able to accept, at any level, the 'assurances' you have received so far. Not just because they aren't at all sufficient to reassure at the level of doubt you quite reasonably have about TTC, but also because the nature of them shows that at some fundamental level he is the same arrogant, flawed person in this respect. When the chips are down, he cannot hold up his hands and see what he has to do as an equal partner - which sometimes means doing stuff you don't want to do. Be it looking after a screaming baby or being man enough to give a proper apology for something. YOU are still expected to put up and shut up in order to preserve his pride/arrogance/whatever. No wonder you are hesitant. I think you're absolutely bang on to be.

I think that for you to be happy there is a LOT more you need to say to him and that this issue needs to be dealt with. I would write a letter - it seems that things sink in over time with him and that much of his problem is a misplaced pride. So a letter that he can read over and again in private is better than a conversation which makes him angry and impatient.

I would put absolutely everything in this letter. Everything that you have recounted on here is reelvant. How he treated you. How it made you feel, during and after the pregnancy. How it spoiled so much of the special time for you. And most of all, how this period changed you opinion of him. Your comments on him trying to impress his friends are very perceptive and I think have much truth in them. Lay it all out. Make it quite clear that these events fundamentally changed your feelings towards him, not for what he did but for what you fear they showed you - the person he really is. The respect you have lost for him. The fear - which is now there and cannot be taken away with apologies - that your relationship is not destined to last long term, that you will someday realise that you no longer want to continue. Explain that his seeking to minimise what actually happened, avoiding talking about it, not wanting to properly apologise - all these do is reinforce the feeling that he is the same person - a person you no longer fully trust.
Don't hold back with anything. He needs to understand that the problem here is that his grudging apologies are just light years away from being a suitable response. What you need is not an apology, grudging or otherwise. It is a period of working together for a. You BOTH to understand the motivations behind his appalling behaviour and how it can be prevented from happening again and b. for him to be able to go through the opening up as a way of showing you that he is capable of being a mature, caring, equal partner.
How you suggest this happens is up to you, but I would suggest a period of counselling - in which you can get to say all that you want to in front of not only him but someone else - to have your feelings validated. If he refuses, after it being laid out in front of him just how much fundamental damage he has done, then I would quite simply refuse to talk further about another child. Hopefully you would find that an initial refusal might soon change, once he sees that you are serious and (as is his way) the contents of your letter start to slowly sink in.

This isn't at all about just TTC - it is about your whole relationship.

I would hold off TTC until you can achieve some sort of meeting of minds over this. he behaved appallingly. Immaturity isn't an excuse for his behaviour. It really does sound like an horrendous way to treat your wife, let alone your pregnant wife.

theotherone again I'm going to go against the grain here. I guess that your DH was very immature when you had your first child. You probably were not as mature as you are now. You will have grown up quickly through the pregnancy, birth and first year. He will probably have had more growiung up to do and took a bit longer.

I read out your posts to my DH. He too used to behave like a total prat from time to time. Would say things which he thought were funny at the time and then would act all hurt when I told him how what he had said made me feel. Think Gary in men behaving badly. He doesnt do this anymore but now would not want to have 'his nose rubbed in it'. Your DH probably is ashamed about how he behaved but at the same time cant feel the guilt to the same extent as perhaps you want because at the time he didnt think he was behaving badly. He cant now go back and make himself feel something different.

How is your DH now? Is he empathetic? Is he mature? How does he deal with the chaos of having children?

If he is now a grown up then I would suggest (as I did upstream) to make some clear staements to him about how he has to behave now without referring to how he behaved before.

I am also going to say that I don't think your situation is hopeless. However, I think the difficulty is that you were deeply hurt and traumatized by your dh behaviour last time and fearful of a repeat. You have not been able to explain this to your dh, have it acknowledged and addressed- becasuse he finds it uncomfortable. I feel you wld probably benefit from some couselling addressing this specific issue - to allow your feelings to be heard. Ignore them and the stresses of the second child cld finish off the relationship.

"it has occurred to me that when women struggle with the baby stage and becoming a parent, people tend to be sympathetic. So possibly men should have some sympathy for that as well."

I wouldn't have much sympathy for a woman who used her struggles with pregnancy and the the baby stage as a reason to emotionally abuse her husband. He was horrible to YOU when you were at your most vulnerable.

This isn't about the kind of parent he is now, it's about the fact that when you needed his help and support his instinct was to abuse you. He's still that person.

I think some men can be incredibly immature in their 20s. When they grow up they arent the same person. For some men the change in that time can be massive. How many of us would like to be held responsible now for our stupid, immature, adolescent actions which we carried out in our teens? Some men in their 20s still behave like teenagers just with a bigger budget. It is only once children have arrived that they start to put away childish things.

At the time that OP's DH was behaving like a total arse was the OP a saint? If the DH is expected to apologise for his oafish, immature behaviour are there things which the DH thinks the OP should apologise for? In this situation I dont think that there is a simple OP = good DH = bad scenario.

I think both OP & her DH should be talking together looking to the future rather than dwelling on the past.

I think both OP & her DH should be talking together looking to the future rather than dwelling on the past.

Very sensible. You do need to make him sit down and discuss it. If he won't he is still your 2nd DC.

OP PLease listen ....the alarms bells are going off like the bloody clappers. This man is not nice

I am going to sound very selfish here, maybe because I am a bit older (early thirties) and have more experience. My DH hasn't been a great parent for our DS1 (now 3yo), although he helped me but he doesn't spend any quality time with him, i.e. no games, walks or stories together.However, I wanted another child and wanted children to be from the same father, and didn't feel like I have time or wish to look for another partner, hence now we have two DSs and I have accepted the fact that I will be the main figure in their lifes.

I think it depends on how much you want another baby. If you are happy with an only, I would leave it at that. If it is important to have another then have the discussion, but bear in mind that you could end up with the extra DC for a second time. As confusedperson says it is worth it if you are prepared to accept it-he isn't the only one who now knows what to expect. You are both older and wiser and can weigh up whether it is worth it.

The posters who have said that this is about our whole relationship, not just this issue, are spot on. And no, GnomeDePlume, I am not a saint. In fact, I have been vile to my husband at times.

I need to pysch myself up to have yet another conversation with him about this.

You say your DS was an lovely easy-going baby - easy to look after.

What if 2nd DC is not?

My 2nd was a screamer. It puts a strain on even the most calm and patient person and even the most rock solid relationships.

Perhaps he doesn't 'know what to expect'. Every baby is different.

What if he decides a baby that wakes ten times a night is too much effort?

schobe - that is my biggest fear. It scares me shitless.

DH has talked about how stressful having a newborn was. I think we are talking about a different baby! Ours slept most of the time and rarely cried.

I have talked to him about this, as he has now seen what friends have been through with their babies. He says 'we will cope because we will have to, like everyone else does'.

For Gods sake.

This man is horrible. Would he have allowed himself to be equally horrible to anyone else? His boss? His friends? Does he allow himself to be that horrible to them now? No? Thought not.

If someone, man OR woman, treats you unkindly it is because they give themselves permission to.

He sounds deeply unpleasant. Go ahead and have another child if that's what you want, but don't kid yourself he's going to turn into Mr Solicitous. He doesn't sound sorry at all.

Honestly, just don't do it. Sounds like he means you will cope because you have to. I thought DS was going to be the end of me and that was with an immensely supportive partner who often did more than his fair share.

Perhaps the letter idea someone suggested is a good one. If he realises that he was bad enough for you to forego having another child ever, then he might be willing to talk properly. Or perhaps you're not prepared to forego that but would have to look to do it with someone else.

From what you've said, honestly, the latter course sounds preferable to me! I know it's easy for an outsider to say that.

We have talked this over for four years, on and off. I don't know how much longer I can keep putting off making a desicion about a second baby.

TakeItOnTheChins - you're right, he does sound horrible, but obviously he wasn't like that 100% of the time for two years. And I suspect I was no walk in the park to live with either.

I am going to talk to him about it all again soon. To be honest, I don't really know what he can say or do now because ShoutyHamster is right - I don't trust him with this one. I don't know what will make me trust him.

Perhaps a bit of genuine remorse would be a start. An apology?

If you make sure you've really spelled out to him how he made you feel and how seriously you are considering no further DCs with him, then you can do no more.

I really feel for you OP.

To Gnome and others who are giving the 'opposite' viewpoint - you may very well be right! He may be totally different and completely step up. That's not the point though.
The point as I see it is that OP is trying to say, 'you let me down so terribly badly on X last time that I cannot trust you until you can properly acknowledge this to a level which I am happy with. You owe me that.'

And the supposedly completely reformed DH, instead of saying 'yes, I have learned my lesson, I am horrified by my behaviour and I completely understand your fears, and thus understand why you need a very high level of reassurance' is basically pulling a slight pout and saying stroppily 'Well I've told you it'll be different, no point in banging on about it'

Which says to me and a lot of others on this thread that NO, he does not appear to have changed at all!

OP knows this, hence this posting, I believe.

OP, I see completely why you don't trust him. I wouldn't either. I would go further and say that if it were me that had been on the receiving end of this treatment, I'd find it hard because I also wouldn't really like or respect him anymore, either.

Thinking absolutely practically, and presuming that you do actually want a second baby, I think the best course of action would be:

1. Make a final attempt to talk to him. I would write a letter as suggested and really hit him with HOW I FELT. And make counselling a condition of TTC.
2. Regardless of the outcome of this, I'd try and think forward to what to do if you remain stuck or with the wrong outcome - ie. either he refuses counselling/talking, or he accepts, but then the worst happens and you have a baby and he's exactly the same. What would you do if you split? Are your finances etc. arranged so that should you split, you are in a position of power? i.e. do you have joint and equal access to money, is the house in both your names. If you can envisage an action plan should the worst happen, could that allow you to see this differently - that if you want a second baby YOURSELF, then you take this risk with him now but are decided in your own mind that you won't accept being treated like this again and so should things revert, you simply walk. You could argue that it's actually easier to have a second baby with him and leave if he reverts to crapness, than leave him now, find someone else THEN have a baby. Both involve splitting and uncertainty, the latter almost certainly more. If age is a consideration, this is even more the case, or if you'd rather not have a huge age gap between children.

You say you don't know what would make you trust him. Maybe the answer to that is that nothing will, he's blown it on that front, and you have to think about what YOU want rather than seeing yourself 'dictated' to by this problem. Seeing yourself as able and willing to walk away from him might be the answer to that.

I have actually considered everything you mention, ShoutyHamster.

I work (although I'm not the main earner), we have equal access to money and a joint mortgage, I have my own car, I have supportive family living nearby. Splitting up would be very difficult both pratically and emotionally but I realise I am not in the kind of vulnerable postion that some women are.

I have thought 'well, maybe he will be useless again but maybe I can cope with that, it's not like I collapsed under the strain last time - in fact, I managed rather well'

Was it you who said to me 'you have all the power here'?

It's actually the pregnancy that puts me off more, I found the baby stage easy but being pregnant hard both physically and emotionally - why does nobody tell you how vulnerable you will feel?!

Does your family know about the situation? As in, do you have someone within the group (sister? mum?) you can REALLY talk to about the dilemma and be prepared to help, rather than folk who will listen but then say breezily 'Oh don't be so silly, you can't split up the family, X is a great dad now'?

Because if so then that makes it easier. I too had a horrible pregnancy - now thinking of no. 2 but for me, it's not so much the having another but the thought of signing up to another '9 months out' - of life, work, everything! It was that bad. So I know where you're coming from. If pregnancy is a big worry, is there any way of accessing emotional support elsewhere throughout? And if you're ok financially, one of the first agreements could be that if you feel (important: you feel, it doesn't get to be his decision AT ALL) that he isn't pulling his weight while you're pregnant, you get outside help (cleaner, au pair?). Also, what I think might make a difference is that this time you've got a bit of experience AND you're aware of what the issues with him might be. It sounds like last time was a horrible shock as much as anything else- being let down just when you most needed it. That's going to make you feel vulneralbe if nothing else! You may not feel it but you will actually be mentally tougher this time. For that read: this time you won't be placing your trust blindly in your husband to be there for you. (Sad, isn't it - that he seems to have no idea what a precious thing he has destroyed).

If you do want another child, to forego it completely is a huge sacrifice. If I had to decide for you I would say it should be a case of trying to solve the issue with your DH but realising that if you can't, it doesn't mean that you stick with one child - it means that you no longer necessarily stick with him. When you think about it, that is actually the more positive decision - going forward in another way rather than shutting down and saying 'he's stopped me from doing that'. To be honest, you might find that if you take that path then the resentment you will ultimately feel will destroy your relationship anyway.

Yes I think I did say that you have the power! It really is in your hands - and so it should be - but it's easy to feel paralysed and keep going round in circles when the decision is such a difficult one. But the more I think about this I keep coming back to the fact that I think what would haunt you in 20 years time is the fact that you never had another child, and your regrets at the thought that you could have gone for it anyway and done it without him if he messed up again. What if you split anyway in say 15 years? The sacrifice would have been for nothing...

Have any of your friends had second children? (To set an example to your dh.) I think you need a plan for your dh looking after both of them for reasonable chunks of time from the start. Mine never did. Things get harder as they grow so the effect is that he's hardly had any involvement since ds2 came along despite getting his act together for 18 months beforehand (ds1 was 3 1/4 when ds2 arrived). Ds2 is 4 1/2 now. I'd get him to agree to this in advance and then go out for those chunks of time to force your dh's hand.