Abusive father in intensive care.... how do you forgive someone who won't admit they did anything wrong?

[Mapley]

Feeling very raw. The man who is my father, who emotionally abused me and my mother and siblings all my childhood (they finally divorced when i was 12) is apparently dying. I say apparently, because in the 20 odd years since i last saw him he's been about to die many times. But apparently this time it's the end.

I chose not to see him again after fighting the court enforced access of my early teenage years and made a life trying to forget the abuse and ignore the hurt and anger. But now I find myself again wondering what i will feel if he dies.

Last night I felt so angry, I wanted to go and see him in hospital and tell him how much he hurt me, how much I hate him and stop him being able to die thinking that he did nothing wrong. (which is apparently what he thinks). i feel so angry, i just want to hurt him. Or i want him to say sorry, I want him to take responsibility for what he did to us. I want some kind of closure, I don't just want him to be able to get away with it.

My mother and sister both think I should not do it, that I'll end up getting hurt and that i should continue to ignore him. My boyfriend said he was shocked by the hatred and revenge in me, that it scared him and he didn't know how to react. He wouldn't take to me about it apart from to say that no good could come from negative emotions, and that I should forgive him and that he wouldn't support me getting in touch with him.

I feel as if I'm not allowed to feel what I'm feeling. I feel judged and ashamed that I feel hatred and anger. But i really do. I was a child, I cold never express how hurt and angry I was, I WANT TO . I want to hurt him. I want him to apologise.

I'm so raw today. Feel sick and awful now. Don't know what to do.

Anyone any experience or perspective?

No advice, because I don't know anything to say that could help. But you've been heard if that's any use.

Hi There

Sorry I have no relevent experience but wan't to respond. What I would say is that if he did't admit his culpability when he was healthy and well, he is unlikely to admit it now. And even if you confronted him in hospital he wouldn't take it on board at this late stage. You of course should be able to feel what you feel and there is nothing wrong it what you are feeling. Without sounding too new agey would it help i writing down what you feel and burning it or sending it off in a balloon or something?? Your issues are real and they belong to you but it sounds like from his history he won
't admit they belong to him irrespective of his current condition so perhaps focus on YOU and not him.

I have no experience of this in terms of an emotionally abusive father but am struggling to accept the level of anger I feel about something else in my life (not as bad as your dad's treatment of you so you have given me a bit of perspective in reading your post thank you).

For today, while you are feeling sick and raw, just write. Write a letter to your dad which you don't have to give to him but just get it all out on paper. Your boyfriend's reaction is not helpful or understanding at all. I know that when I am thinking about how angry I am about my experience I get even angrier that I am feeling so angry (and the whole revenge thing) because then I feel like a bad person and as if I have been damaged in some way to be so angry but it is not like that. This is about finding a way you can process your anger in a way that gives you a sense of peace. Revenge (in the sense of telling your dad what a despicable excuse for a human being you think he is) may be part of it, and it may not. The most important thing is for you to feel better.

You need to set yourself up with some counselling (Relate do not just deal with marriage counselling I believe or your GP can help you access something). FWIW my dad had an abusive father (physically and emotionally) and decided long before his dad died that he would not be speakng to his father again, even if he was on his death bed and that was what happened. My dad felt entirely justified in that and people around him (my mum included) thought this was v hateful (as in a burden to my dad to feel that level of hate) and my dad would feel bad about it in later years but no, he hasn't. There are people who just don't deserve your pity or your sympathy or your help.

Really wishing you well - am sure others will come along with far more helpful advice but just wanted to post so you knew there were people reading.

He won't apologise. why would he? That would be to admit he is a shit and it is not in his interest to do so.

This 'forgiving' thing is a load of crap.You don't need to forgive him. He was and is a bastard and if he has not asked for your forgiveness, why do you need to give it to him?

Moving on in your life and dealing with your pain and grief is an entirely separate issue and the one which you should be concentrating on. Therapy is much needed here I think.

I had a shitty childhood too. It interests me that you use many of the same phrases that I have used myself eg 'I don't want him to get away with it'. I think you need to move away from that line of thinking as it won't heal you. you've got to work on moving on from your childhood abuse. Your father is no longer part of your life. Forget him as he is now and find help to lose the anger. It is yourself that you are hurting now with all this rage.

Good luck x

thank you all.

I thought I had come to terms with this many times before. It was so long ago. I've had problems with depression and eating disorders relating to my childhood and had counselling and treatment and thought I was OK now. But I'm not. I'm so angry.

I'm so sad about my boyfriend too. I feel like his reaction has made me feel worse. But then I also feel angry that my father can be making me feel bad about my boyfriend and making us quarrel. Still poisoning my life and relationships.

My other thinks he is manipulative and likes hurting us, and the best way to hurt him is to continue ignoring him. I feels so passive after 20 odd years though. He's never tried to contact me once. I'm scared that he'll die and I'll be left wanting to talk to him and never being able to.

Unfortunately, people who behave in such an abusive way will rarely admit it. They probably don't even admit it to themselves so admitting it to their victim takes more empathy and kindness than they are capable of.

It is unlikely that confronting your father will bring the result you want. Even if he were to admit it, where would that leave you? It wouldn't take back the hurt that has been caused to you. Your anger is completely understandable and healthy reaction. Of course you should be allowed to feel it. Getting an appology now may even make it harder to deal with your anger, as you would still feel it as a result of his actions, but you may feel that as you have had your appology you have to forgive.

IMO, what he did was unforgivable. Why should you forgive him? Rather than forgiving him, why not think of it as forgiving yourself - not that you have done anything wrong- but so you can heal that hurt in your psyche and say "yes, this was my past, but I am not going to let it have a hold on my future. That is for me to shape". You would be better off using your anger as energy to fule a process of moving on, whether that is by getting you through therapy, or something that works better for you. For me, it was two years of martial arts training that worked out my anger! Once I had gained an acceptance of what had happened, the fight quite literally went out of me, but left me calmer and happier, not defeated.

I'm so sorry.

Yes, you have been heard, and I am not surprised you have hatred and revenge in your heart.

It seems there are a few people telling you how you should feel, and how you should react. There is no 'should' - do what you feel is right for you.

But be cautious - he probably won't retract now, he is probably incapable of giving you the apology you deserve and need. And it may well be that telling hi out of hate doesn't actually make you feel as good as you think it might. But if you think it would help for you to actually tell him, then do it. There is a differnce between calmly disclosing the truth and doing something which you may regret in the future.

And while you are so raw and hurting, perhaps it might help to have a little counselling - someone who will help you feel what is the best way for YOU to deal with this, as an alternative to doubtless well-meaning loving relatives and partners who have an idea of how you 'should' be.

I doubt you'd "closure" by talking to him, he's unlikely to change.
You can't change someone who won't admit their faults. He would twist your visit and what you say to suit his reality. In fact it may indulge his sense of marytrdom "look how she's treating me as I lay here helpless"

I dont have personal experience with my parents but saw my close friend go through it with hers

If and when he dies, be prepared to mourn, not the man he was but the father you should have had.
In fact thats really whats happening now, you are grieving for the father you should have had with all the hurt, pain and anger that comes with grief

but if i can't tell him make him apologise, talk to him and he just dies, then what? What was the point of all this hurt, all the crap that happened and followed. If there's no justice, no apology, if I can't make him feel bad, it all just stops and i'm left with this continued ill feeling in my heart forever. I want to stop feeling so powerless. Powerless child, who didn't understand, didn't remember, didn't get it as bad as everyone else, was protected and therefore has no right to feel hurt. I was hurt. I am hurt. I deserve to be able to hurt him in return.

I don't know an alternative. just living and carrying on and ignoring it only works until you remember. it does nothing to right the wrongs and make it better. It's always just wrong.

I just can't talk about it. Noone wants to. They are either too involved and hurt themselves, too removed and don't know what to say or they are a professional who won't hug me, won't love me, whose office I will leave in tears and have to pull myself together again over the week until i go back into the office and fall apart again. A box of tissues on a side table and that's all. There's never any closure. I'm still me, I'm still hurting, still a fuck up in too many ways and he's still a bogeyman that scares the hell out of me in the back of my mind.

I'm not even sure how my mind works, which memories are real, which order the go in and whose they are. Too mant things I can't remember, too many I do that I can't think about, too much that I'm not sure is real but has shaped me and made me someone that I'm not sure about.

As much as you may want it, it is more likely than not that he won't feel bad, or apologise now. You know that he is not that sort of person, else he would not have hurt you in the first place. You will ptrobably never be able to have the power over him that you want, but you do have it in you to stop him continuing to have power over you, by mastering the feeling of powerless that he has left you with.

There is no point to it, and the only justice is you making his input to your life irrelevant, or to your advantage. You can only do that by feeling positive about the person you are now. It may seem impossible to you at the moment, but it is something within your power to change.

Keep talking to us on here, if you have no-one else and are not feeling up to more counselling.

Afternoon Maply, Slightly different situation to you; My abusive H passed away last year after a brief illness. I was with him until he died though I had issued divorce proceedings and cancelled them not long before he got sick.

I cried, but in a sense it was tears of relief that this person who had been so vile to me was actually gone. I just kept my mouth shut whilst he was in hospital, stayed with him and said goodbye after he died. I didn't feel it was necessary to ask him anything he was so sick and I actually felt very sorry for him.

It may be worth going to see him, but say nothing? It may release you.

One thing that hurts abusers more than anything is to think that they have no power over their victims. They want to be powerful and feared with people desperate to have them around. You failing to go to him on his deathbed, because all he is to you is a pathetic, nasty old man who has lost the right to have you call him dad, is the biggest insult and afront to his self image.

He's not exactly going to get away with it though. He is going to die alone, nobody who cares about him round his bed as he goes, because he drove his ex-wife and children away. That is a fairly horrible fate. You turning up may give him some sort of weird feeling that you care because you're there, even if it's a negative sort of caring. Leaving the bastard in his bed on his own shows you don't.

The nearest you can probably get to forgiveness is to accept that he was deeply damaged. Perhaps it's asking too much that you should pity him. That he wanted to be horrible to his family suggests something was wrong with him, but he could have chosen not to do it. Very few people are that mad.

Look on the bright side though. He can't get to you when he's dead.

I'm sorry for what you are going through.

He's your dad. He's dying.

WWID?

I'd write him a letter. No holds barred, tell him exactly how I feel. And give it to him.

Death, or its prospect does strange things to people. They think, about their lives, their actions and most want to make amends. Some make amends, some dont. But having a record of what his daughter feels about him should make him think.

2 or 10 years from now, how would you feel? Happy that you got all the anger, hurt or bitterness out in the open (to him) OR bitter and still hurt that you never got the chance to tell him exactly how he made you feel?

At some point, you need to let go of the anger and grieve the loss of this man who gave you life - even if he made it miserable. Then and only then can you start to heal, and perhaps forgive. Please don't let this ruin or taint your life.

My humble opinion.

Good luck.

I have experience of this.

I told my dad exactly what I thought of him, and the way he failed to stop my mother from abusing me, and hiding behind his books instead. Enabling my horrific childhood.

I really yelled at him. I cried, I stamped around.

I don't think he had any idea of what I was talking about.

He died shortly after. It was a relief.

I am glad I did it, even though it meant nothing to him, it did to me.

Hi Mapley you are not going to get the answers and apologies that you deserve from this man. It will never happen.

Do not let him keep this power over you. Go to councelling, learn to get rid of the anger and hatred. These still give him power over you.

Your dad, if you had one died a long long time ago. This thing dying in a hospital bed was never your dad, it is just a wasted pathetic lump of flesh and it only has the power to make you feel this way if you let it.

I once asked my step-father why and he said because I enjoyed it. Apparently I enjoyed being raped and everything else he did to me from the age of 8. He never ever saw that he did anything wrong. The day he died was like a weight had been lifted, I had never felt so light!

Your best revenge is to dismiss everything this man did to you and live a happy love filled life.

There is no point going to the hospital to vent or to expect an apology. The first is arguably not fair to a dying man and will eventually weigh on your mind as guilt and the second won't happen. The only thing you could consider (and this would be totally up to you, and only because it might make you feel better long term) might be to go along to forgive him and to see for yourself that he has no more hold on you. I quite understand if you are not ready for that, I am just thinking ahead 5,10 or 15 years and wondering if in the future you might regret not being able to deal with this whilst he was alive, and whether you would be proud of yourself for being the bigger, better person and also wrest back the power in the situation.

xales that is awful and I am not surprised you were happy when he died.

My abusive stepdad died, and I whilst it would've been wonderful to rage at him and get him to admit his wrongs on his deathbed, the fact is he simply was incapable of it, because that would require something he lacked- basic human empathy. Just because your dad is dying doesn't mean he's any more capable of unegotistical empathic behaviour than he was when he was abusing you. It sucks, I understand the desire for closure, but life is messy and you just wont get what you want from this encounter.

I am not of the opinion that you shouldn't go do this for judgey reasons, more because it will probably end up hurting you and fucking with your head. Really the best punishment this man can receive is to die alone and unloved.

I find great solace in the music of The Mountain Goats, the lead singer was abused by his stepfather and wrote an album about it called The Sunset Tree. Here's a song about being abused and eventually breaking free that I adore , this one's a revenge fantasy , here's one about the eventual death of his stepfather .

I don't think anyone should be putting any pressure on you to stop feeling how you feel or to forgive your father at this point in time.

I think writing a letter to him would be a really good idea, as MsToni suggests. Then decide whether to give it to him - knowing there's a possibility you won't get what you want from that, as others have said, but maybe still wanting him to hear your thoughts (maybe even just going , giving it to him and then leaving) - or maybe ceremonially destroying it.

I think you will need to seek support from outside sources to vent your feelings and then come to a point where you can go on without the anger hurting you.

I don't think you'll get what you want from him. You never have before, it's unlikely you will now. But I'd say do it anyway. Better to say it now, rather than having those words stuck inside you after his death.

I hope he does it this time! Go to his funeral - I was shocked by my incredulity that mine really had gone - stopped - forever. His funeral was a happy occasion for us, his children; it helps the change sink in.

I'm sorry DH doesn't get it, but not surprised. After this, perhaps he'll understand you better. Above all, take care of your own feelings. x

Mapley. Don't look back. You can't undo the past. Look forward and make sure that your DC never go through what you went through. That is the best closure and the best justice that you can get.
The weight will lift when he dies [been there, done that emoticon]
You owe him nothing. Put yourself first.

What about writing him an open letter in the Guardian Family supplement so that everyone knows what he did and how he left you feeling?
It's a column called 'A Letter To....'.
Anonymous, but even so.

thank you all, good to read support from folk who understand. It really is.

The idea about grieving rings a bit true with me, when I think about it I feel like I've been grieving him my whole adult life. Maybe it'll be able to stop when he dies. I hope the weight does lift. I'm just terrified that it won't and I'll be stuck here forever. I get to the point of feeling OK and putting the feelings away again, and then he gets in touch and "nearly dies" again and all us siblings are a mess again for a while .

I don't even want to know about him. I haven't got his address and I refuse to give him mine. He has one of my siblings phone number, and he rings them to tell them to pass on messages. Which they feel obliged to do, and also because it isn't fair they should shoulder the load when he singles them out.

A part of me just now thinks that if only I'm clever and brilliant enough, I can get him to apologise and understand. I feel like I've got my hands over my ears and I don't want to hear you all telling me it'll end in tears. I want to be able to make it stop and make him understand what he did and is still doing.

I wish he would die and I hope he doesn't. I wish he'd go away. I've had so much therapy and counselling, it doesn't work. Neither does trying to forgive, understand or forget. It all just comes back everytime he rears his ugly head again.

Hi there- no experience of this but I think that you should consider getting some support/counselling straight......might help decide whether going to see him now is the right thing....it could be?