why do i want to leave?

[houndsoflove]

regular poster & lurker, but namechanged.

DP and I have been together for 3 and a half years - dd came along very unexpectedly after we'd been together 18 months. DP and I have always been very dissimilar but it only became clear to me how much after DD was born a year ago.

I had quite a miserable pregnancy and was diagnosed with ante natel depression - during this time DP and I talked and planned only for the labour, and never really touched on what kind of parents we would be, or how having a baby would affect us, and as neither of us had had much experience with babies or young children I think we both took it for granted that we would 'know' what to do.

In a sense we did know, and despite my initial misgivings about being a mother I have surprised myself by how many aspects of parenting I actually enjoy, and the more I have read up on it, and the more advice I have received the more I think I am leaning toward quite an undisciplined, naturalistic approach to motherhood.

DP on the other hand is quite old fashioned - almost strict - and I find myself jumping on him more and more often and remonstrating with him the ways in which I hope for DD to be raised. (As a for instance DD is a terrible, sleeper - still sleeps in with us and almost resents being put anyway other than my arms. My solution to this is to let her sleep in with us, lay her next to me for naps in the daytime or in a sling and going to her when she cries. DP is an advocate of the idea of controlled crying and really wanted to do this with DD, until I told him I wasn't comfortable with it. But now this means I have forfeited my right to complain about being tired when up with DD in the night as we are not using 'his solution'. I do all bedtimes and night wakings as DD breastfed and settles quicker for me, plus he works full time.)

I think my point is that more and more recently I have thought about leaving, and moving back to the place I grew up in (countryside) whereas he wants to stay here (city) and he 'can't think of anything more dull than the countryside'. I just want to pick up DD and move away, thinking she will have better, more consistent parenting if it is just me, and I won't feel as though I am on DP's case all the time, or have to register the hurt on his face when he is just tickling me and kidding around and I flinch away because I am too fucking tired and too fucking busy for that. I don't feel I have time for both him and DD, and what's more I resent the fact that his life hasn't changed since I got pregnant. He still goes out, gets drunk, stays out till three in the morning, goes on holiday with his friends (twice in the last 12 months) and I feel as though I have had to step up and be responsible when it should be both of us.

As a (very) quick disclaimer, DP is funny, sexy, handsome, kind and very, very levelheaded. I hate the phrase but he really is a catch and I recognise I'm driving him away. I just can't trust how I feel enough to know if leaving is a good thing, or a terrible choice for DD and I. I'm worried it may be PND or symptomatic of it - either way, I'm scared of pushing the man I love away because I feel resentment, bitterness and worse, that he's 'not doing it right'.

Sorry for long winded post. Thanks if you got this far!

i dont have a successful relationship with my husband/childrens father so I cant offer much advice but;

• i think if you feel you might have pnd, you should go to GP- I have a number of friends who felt that they wanted to leave their partners when suffering pnd- and then didnt when they had recovered

• it sounds as if you really do want to stay with him-your last comment about him 'not doing it right' reminded me of a programme I saw called 'The Biology of Fathers' which might help you see his parenting style as more useful. it points out how and why mothers and fathers parent differently and what this teaches the child. you would still need to reach some compromises, agreements about the fundamentals but it might help, if you can find it on the net

Hi, Hounds. Sorry to hear you're so tired.

IF your only point of difference is your parenting styles, and the difference is as you've described, then I think you've got a bad case of PFB-itis and the pair of you are suffering from the irrationality that comes with any baby; triple that for a firstborn.

You all need some perspective. If you have a nice HV, then s/he is your best first call. Can you bring yourself to separate from DD for a couple of days, for you & DP to catch up on some sleep and talk about things more calmly? Thought not!

You really do need some perspective. Please find it.
And get some kip!!!

All the best.

thanks you guys, it always helps to get some perspective - as garlicbutter says, and i do feel as though i've become so insulated it's difficult to see it objectively.

bejeezus i remember that program, and heard very good things about it from other people who'd seen it. will definately try to track it down.
i think you're both right that i need to get some advice from a health professional too, and even if the hormones aren't damaging me maybe the sleep deprivation is doing so more than i realised ? i haven't slept longer then three hours straight in a year, and that can't be good.

garlicbutter i hear you - she is very much a PFB and will probably be the only child I have as well (was told I couldn't have children and have found this last year quite traumatic and don't want to repeat the experience :().

I think what you've both picked up on is the fact that despite all I've said I DO love him, he's genuinely a great dad, and helpful and wants to be involved. I think in a large part I'm so resentful of his freedom - freedom to go on holiday, to go out and have a few drinks knowing he can sleep all night and not be up in the morning, to leave all the big parenting descisions to me as 'I'm better at all that'. It's the resentment I can't stand as it's so unlike me and it's so embedded now it's coming out in diifferent ways iyswim. I don't want to constantly nag him - I used to be quite chilled and adventureous before DD. I often feel as though I'm mourning my old life when he's off out all the time.

I think also he and I haven't got out together since DD was born - not for longer than a few hours anyway as she really only seems to settle for me. We try to spend time together in the evenings, just to maintain the contact and intimacy, but in the summer I have booked a holiday for DD and I (to Cornwall where I'm from) and he can't come because of work. The thing is, I'm really looking forward to being alone with DD, as I often feel pressure to 'look after' them both when we're all together.

Am I just going mad ? :(

So, you're concerned that his ideas of child rearing aren't 'right', your dd will only settle for you (so you're the only one who can put her to bed). You're tired and your dd doesn't sleep well but you won't entertain trying another method to see if it works and you're resentful that his life hasn't changed while yours has?

Tbh I'm not surprised. It does sound very much like you're over protective of your dd and won't allow him 'in' at all. If he can't do things right (in your eyes) where's the incentive to do it at all? The sleep thing is really hard, because ime babies start to sleep when they want to and controlled crying only works if you catch them at the right time.

I think (and as with any parenting advice you should feel free to disregard, it is only someone elses opinion) that you should let go a little. Do you have a regular evening out on your own - leaving dp and dd time to get to know each other on their own? He won't do everything the same as you but you may be surprised how well he copes.

Also, I'm a bit concerned about this desire to move back to the countryside. Coupled with the rest of your posts it does sound a little like you want to insulate yourself and dd from the rest of the world. That is not healthy for either of you and may be the Pnd talking. When I had it I just wanted to lock the front door and not let anyone in.

Finally (long post, sorry) congratulations on your dd. It's a shock to the system having children anyway, and if you had mentally prepared yourself for none finding out you were pregnant must have brought great joy and total shock! Good luck and keep talking to your dp. That way whatever happens you can still remain good co- parents to your dd.

houndsoflove, I think, if it's just based on what you've said, that considering leaving is a horribly extreme reaction. I couldn't disagree more with you thinking DP will have "better, more consistent parenting" if it is just you. Children need both their parents, and TBH that comes across as pretty arrogant. Whose to say you are a better parent? You might be doing fine with the baby stuff (although there's no right or wrong way for any of it) but there'll be things that your DP does really well too, which neither of you have discovered yet. Don't deprive your daughter of that.

I agree with the posters saying step back, chillax, let your DP find his own ways of being a father. Things will only get worse if you stick with the attitude that you're better than him. Sure you know what suits your daughter, but he should find that out too if they get to spend time together.

Hope that's not too harsh, but I don't think different parenting styles are a reason for taking his child away.

If you hadn't fallen pregnant, do you think you'd still be together now?

Meant DD in that first bit, obv!

thank you berries we've tried a few things with dd's sleep and i'm currently reading the no cry sleep solution to try to improve things - i'm all for the path of least resitance frankly, so she sleeps in with us. i am willing to try things to get her to sleep, and have been through a few (PUPD, gradual withdrawal) but I won't consider crontrolled crying as don't think it will work with DD.
I get a half hour break some days between DD's dinner and bed when DP comes in from wok and I scoot over the road and read the paper in the pub. I actually enjoy time alone, and miss it a lot.
I worry about the isolation thing too - I don't think that it's healthy, and I really really want to reiterate that I don't WANT to take DD away from her father, or he from her, but it's as though the seed of the idea is germinating in my head and I don't know how to stop it. I do feel it is a bad descision to make.

seachange I know how it sounds, and I'm as shocked as you are at the arrogance of it - again, very unlike me. (I hope!) I never expected to be a mother, spent most of my pregnancy resenting the fact and now feel quite a lot of pressure to do it 'right' - although I'm aware there is no 'right' way. Very contradictary, I know.
DP is a brilliant dad, and I will try to leave him to it more often. He deserves the chance, I know that.

FreudianSlip I don't know, honestly. I know we wouldn't be living together if it wasn't for DD but we had jobs in Italy to go to when I found out I was pregnant so I think we'd certainly be travelling or working abroad together in some way.

that should have read 'DP comes in from WORK' obviously.

It is so, so hard, because all the hundreds if not thousands of books and articles and tv programmes about being a parent make it seem as though there IS a right or best way to do it. They have to or else they wouldn't sell. Raising children is natural and brilliant but you have to trust yourself and your partner and most importantly perhaps work it out together.

It sounds like your relationship might have been rushed along a little by this - it wouldn't be easy having to get used to living together as well as having a baby. You write that your DP is a good guy though, hopefully you can make it work.

I take it he doesn't know what you're thinking? It would be awful for him to have "I don't agree with how you parent DD so I'm thinking of taking her away" hanging over his head :(

Thanks for your reply, Hounds. Today's posts have given me a better picture of why you feel quite this desperate. You mentioned his going on holiday (without you two, presumably) plus going out, etc, and say you feel under pressure to look after both DH and DD when you're together.

Did you feel like DP's "parent" before you had DD? It doesn't really matter whether he expected you to take care of him or you simply took on the role, the point is that you feel obliged to be the carer in your family.

You don't have to be. You can allow DP to be an equal grown-up and parent, which would allow you to be more of a girl sometimes, and an equal parent. From what you've written, you're open to negotiation on parenting techniques - you're more flexible than, perhaps, you thought you were. Now there's matter of re-negotiating with DH; letting him do his half of the parenting ... and getting more sleep!

You really will find this easier with some professional guidance and/or buffering :)

If, after you offer DP flexibility & room to develop his father-child relationship with DD, you're still at a major standoff - then I would think this partnership is perhaps a mistake. But first you've got to get your rest and your perspective. Good luck.

The fact that he looks after DD for an hour fairly frequently so you can have a break is what suggests to me that there is hope here. He's not expecting you to do everything while he does exactly as he likes because he's the Man. I also think it's worth having a word with your GP about possible PND.

thank you everyone for such considered and mediated replies - it has really helped. Even writing this is cathartic.

seachange - yes, i do feel as though having DD rushed the relationship along - i knew the strength of my feelings for him though, and assumed we'd manage. On reflection, we have always been different (no bad thing in itself) but added with the stresses of a colicy newborn and my initial negative attitude towards motherhood it seems to have exacerbated all the underlying problems.
No, he doesn't know what I'm thinking, other than the fact that I'm homesick for Cornwall (all my family are down there too), and that I sometimes feel as though having a baby has changed me into someone I'm not very fond of. I've explained that much to him but I would never be so insensitive as to tell him I'm thinking of moving away, or that I don't like his strictness with DD. We do row about his watching tee-vee with her all the time though. (Bugbear emoticon. :))

garlicbutter a very good point, I'd not thought of it like that before - DP is younger than me by about eight years and I think I initially wanted his life to carry on as 'normal' during the pregnancy and after the birth as I didn't want him to resent DD and I for having to curb his good times. Does that even make sense ? Because I found her such a burden I assumed he did too, and wanted to allieviate that by doing everything myself and exhausting myself in the process I think.

I think the consensus here is that I need to try and take a back seat and let DP get to know DD better. I do need time on my own, and like I said, I really miss it, so will try and pack them off for the afternoon somewhere. Might try and see the GP on Tuesday too, although I'm not sure if the HV would be a better first stop ?

I think you need to let him in more, and trust him to do the right thing. Parents do sometimes have different ideas about parenting, however it does not make it wrong just different.

You clearly love him, and I think you are suffering from PND and looking for ways to make yourself feel better.

Try to work together instead of apart, don't think that your way is always the right way but be prepared to compromise and meet in the middle.

Once you have children you sometimes lose the sense of you as it were because you are no longer a single entity but have someone who relies on you and become a mother rather than just Jane (or whatever your name is).

You need to find the middle ground so you can have the best of both worlds.

It sounds as though you are both being very black and white with your parenting ideals here. You want to co-sleep, he wants to do controlled crying - at first glance they seem completely at odds with each other, and when discussing it you immediately get defensive because the other's approach is so different to your own, you feel you have to defend "your" way and protect against the "other" way. I know this because I had an XP who was exactly the same, and at the time I just felt fiercely protective and "He's not doing that to OUR baby!" - looking back, I can see that if XP was more open to discussion and the idea of compromise, perhaps there could have been some things we could have met in the middle on.

Again, at the time, I couldn't see any way of meeting in the middle, because there was no middle way I would be happy with - but later, being able to look at things more rationally I can see that the problem was we both had our end goals in mind, and although these end goals may have been the same, we were both so focused on our way of getting there being the right way that we failed to notice this. And that is totally understandable when you are both sleep deprived, still adjusting, stressed from the extra work, still shell-shocked from the birth perhaps. Take some time. You don't need long - can you get a grandparent or friend or other relative to look after the baby for a couple of hours (in another room in the same house if you want) just to give you both a chance to talk, properly, calmly and without attacking each other, about what it is you want.

So just taking the sleep example again. The eventual end goal with this is that you (presumably) both want her to be happy sleeping alone and disturbing your sleep as little as possible. In the short term, perhaps he is worried that her being in your bed is going to mean she's there forever, or that it is unsafe, and perhaps you want to maximise sleep for yourself and also make the transition smooth for her so she feels secure. So actually, if you look at these, there's no way you can't achieve both, even if you both feel secretly that the other's concerns are a bit silly or irrelevant. Now here's your chance to explain the theories that you have read, perhaps either do some research together or send him some links to read in his lunch hour at work, about how co-sleeping in the early years leads to more settled sleeping when older. You could also look at getting a bedside cot so that slowly as the baby gets older you can encourage her to have her own space. You could read up on controlled crying, find out the minimum age where it's recommended, and what's involved, and whether there are any ways of doing it which seem less cruel to you. (The No Cry Sleep Solution is a good book, by the way, and you can always ask on MN for book recommendations). You could talk about your DD being in your bed and see the absolute maximum age DH would be comfortable with it, or agree that you will carry on until X age and look at the situation again then, or agree a target age/time where she will be transitioned into her own cot or room or bed and do a long term plan, both gentle enough for you to be happy with, but the plan is there, so he can see that you will get there eventually.

HTH :) I think the most important thing is knowing whether your husband will be open to talking and negotiating like this. XP never would have been and so we always clashed and in a way I suppose it made me more stubborn and more "I WILL do it my way!" - I have a new DP now and although he would never tell me how to raise my own child, we have spoken about what might happen if we have our own children sometime in the future, and I feel confident we will be able to talk about disputes like this, which is good. He's also said to me that he thinks it's good for children to see two different approaches from their parents, as long as one isn't undermining the other, which I'd never thought about before having been brought up by a single parent and always thinking "showing a united front" was supposed to be the most important. Anyway I hope you both find your way - it is hard when you're working all these things out. Good luck :)

*disturbing your sleep as little as possible while still meeting her needs.

I don't like controlled crying. I don't think it's wrong or bad, I just think there are kinder ways. The one that works for me does involve getting even less sleep for a few weeks, so it's a question of whether the parents can do it without having a nervous breakdown! I don't know what it's called, but it's basically the same method only you stay in the child's room with her until she drops off ... which can be a very long time, as the baby realises she's got the upper hand. Each night, you do your comforting from a little further away. On the (hopefully) final night, you're just sitting by the door and that should be enough of a presence for her.

HV or GP? I guess it depends which one is more sympathetic to you personally. Try them both?

I do hope you get this cleared up for all 3 of you, without too much heartache. It'll be worthwhile :)

Garlicbutter, I don't like controlled crying either, but it's worth reading up on something even if you go on to decide you don't like it at all. (And I think it's telling, for example, that many of the experts recommend not to do it before 6 or 12 months.) It's a lot easier to be confident in your desicion to dismiss a popular option if you know why you're opposed to it, I think.

Also I don't see why a baby would think they have the "upper hand" using your method, because I don't see it as a battle, but just helping them to go to sleep in a way that's acceptable to you both. I think I'm doing that very slowly with DS! I used to sleep with him all night, then he started moving away once he'd fed, now I tend to feed him to sleep still but sometimes he just needs me to lie there. Sometimes for daytime naps I can just sit near him and he's okay. Once he woke in the night and cried, but as soon as he saw me standing in his room he went back to sleep. They get there, in their own time - speeding it up is just personal preference :)

Yep, agree with everything you said, Bertie (except the bit about the upper hand - but who really know what's going on in a baby's mind??!) Your two essential points are, I think, that it's all about personal preference and you can't make an informed choice until you've considered the information.

I think you've had some really great and insightful advice that you've taken on board.

I really think you do need to learn to talk to each other.

Are you able to be brave enough to be honest with him and say that you recognise that you've not been letting him in to parent your dd etc. I also think he needs to hear that you feel resentful of his boys nights out etc anc is their room for negotiation for them to be reigned in a bit? Not stopped btw but perahps not the drunken 3am benders etc?

Once your baby is less dependent on you for sleeping etc life will feel 1,000% better. In the meantine do you have a beside cot - it's an easy way to wean her out of your bed if that would help you sleep better?

fabby 'no longer a single entity' - yes! that is exactly how it feels, suddenly I have lost my sense of self. it's like no-one asks how i am anymore, it's all 'oooh, hows the baby?'.

Bertiebotts very good advice, thank you! what is this 'comprimise' of which you speak ? I'm joking, obviously, in fact I think the fact that we actually do have common goals (i.e to help DD to sleep and to bring her up as a hppy, confident indiviual) has got lost in the battle for 'being right'.Cargirl and BertieBotts you both mentioned bedside cots - she is actually in a cot in her own room (for about an hour a night) would it be regressive to move it back in with us ? I was hoping if we played in her room during the day, made it a nice secure space for her she would eventually enjoy it more. I like the idea of a bedside cot, it's much safer than co-sleeping and again, I can withdraw gradually then. I will look into it.

I just really, really wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to give me such insightful advice, and I will be gently nudging myself to the GP (have a lovely GP) on Tuesday. Also I had a chat with DP last night after DD went to bed, and explained that I was going to try to take a step back a bit and hold my tongue and let him get on with things without me more often. I told him that I was jealous that he 'got' to go out as often as he did for a big fat drink up and I felt as though I was 'stuck' at home a lot. We have both agreed to talk more and try to listen to each other's ideas on parenting and try to give them some validity even if we didn't neccessarily agree with them.

I know he loves us and that alone would make it near impossible to leave but he has also said that if there was any work in the profession that he wants to do (he wants to train as a plumber) in Cornwall he will consider moving there until DD is at lest school age, so it's good to know the option is there. He has taken her to her Grandads for the afternoon leaving me the house to myself and the weekend papers...lovely.

That does sound very positive and that you are both committed to trying to get things to work out as a family.

My dc were in their own rooms (some from birth some from a couple of weeks!) as I couldn't relax with their sunffling etc, I did pick up pick down with my eldest at a few days old!!!! However you have to do what is right for you and I would advocate something that gets you the most sleep. If she is used to sleeping with you and sleeps better that way then drag the cot in and go for it. I loved the idea of baby sleeping with us but the reality was a nightmare they grunted my milk let down, I was wide awake (am a bit of an insomniac) and baby fast asleep........

Pick up pick down is not traumatic at all, if they complained (not even crying) I picked them up until calm and put them back down in their cot. However I did this very early so I think they learnt quickly that it was safe to be in the cot and they weren't abandoned there - as they are older it's probably a longer lesson to learn? I never fed mine to sleep either and they all slept though at young ages. yes fed them until drowsy but woke them up and put them down awake.

This worked for me and my dc and worth trying if co-sleeping isn't working for you. I had a single bed and cot in the nursery and I fed them in there laying down so it didn't matter if I nodded of - is that another thing worth considering. Start off in the marital bed and emigrate into the baby's room?

Just go with what works for you as a family unit, life is much more pleasant when you're getting a decent amount of unbroken sleep!