So my mum seems to hate me...

[Bear1984]

I always thought it when I was little. Why would she hit me but not my sister or my brothers (none of whom I speak to now). Why did she not praise me when I achieved something, even now? What is it about me that she must hate so much to treat me like I'm shit?

Having DD, I was very worried I would turn out like her. When I get angry, I feel like I am her, and it scares me. I wouldn't hit my DD, I know I would never do such a thing, but when I get angry, I'm scared I'm too much like my mum.

But even now as an adult, about to hit the 30s in fact, she still seems to hate me so much. When she was in hospital, she told my sister that she didn't want me to know cos she thought I wouldn't care (had wrote about that at the time under a different name). But over the last few days, I'm just so angry with her.

I picked DD up from hers a couple of days ago. It's very rare I have DD go to my mum's, and this has all too much reminded me as to why! When I was there, she was saying about how she would like to have DD again. Well I said she would see DD on Sunday when we all come round for dinner. She said it's not the same because I'm there and ruin their time together. I don't even want to go to my mum's for Easter! But I felt sorry for her as she'll be on her own, so we were just gonna go over for a meal.

Then DD told me when we were at home, they had gone to the cinema. She asked my mum if she could call me and ask if I wanted to come with them. She said no to this. DD got very upset because of it.

It also transpires tonight that my mum has been filling DD's head with horrible thoughts and comments about me. DD called me lazy and said I don't do anything with her, despite having taken her to cinema and out for lunch today, and then we went into London yesterday and had lunch out as well, and then night before we had pizza and watched a couple of films together etc. I asked her to tell me when she means, as to why she was saying I don't do anything, and she said something like "oh fine, you have been doing lots of things with me, but granny says you don't." It also turns out that my mum has told DD to ignore me when I tell DD to do something she doesn't want to do or if I tell her off.

I'm just flabbergasted at this. I can't believe she would dare say these things to DD!! I mean really I shouldn't be that surprised, but maybe I'm just stupid. So in the morning, I'm going to ring her up, tell her we're not coming round Sunday and exactly why I'm cancelling. Not really looking for advice, just somewhere to vent and kick myself for being so stupid.

pointybunnyears thank you. Every step counts I guess :)

springydaffs, I did go to counselling for two years after my breakdown. It really helped and started helping me see things in a different light. It is something I started up again a couple of months ago as well. I'm hoping to keep it up. I was really gutted when it stopped as I was only allowed up to two years. I hope you're in a better place now as well xx

You can get good-quality counselling on the cheap if you look around - or, if you can afford to pay good money, it is money well spent imo. Glad to hear you're in counselling, I'm looking around for something too at the mo. For those of us who've had a truckload of shit from the year dot, it's essential I think. I'm surviving thank you Bear, it hasn't been easy, bit tricky at the mo, but here I still am.. a lot of peace these days somehow xx

I'm glad to hear. I hope it stops being tricky for you soon. Hope you can find somewhere. I will need to look elsewhere soon as I do counselling through my uni and I finish in June, so I haven't got long left.

I can see things always being a little difficult as I know how persistent my mum is. I woke up feeling guilty this morning because obviously we were suppose to go round today, and she had texted me asking if I had changed my mind, and saying how she's not just brought Easter eggs for DD but also for me... I'm waiting for DP and DD to sort themselves out as we're going out for lunch to a pub that's doing an Easter Egg hunt so that will keep DD happy and DP happy with a carvery lol. I just don't want to be in this afternoon for her to just "drop by".

Have so far ignored her messages. I think what makes it worse for me is because I know how lonely and depressed she can get. I know her grandchildren really are the only things that make her happy. But saying that, I'm not even going to risk having DD go through what I went through or to have her think of me in the way she has. Just thinking about it, I start to get really angry again.

Unfortunately it's DD's holy communion next weekend. My mum already knows the details and was going to come down with my sister. I originally said this was fine with me as they were going to sit somewhere else in the church, and I'd only have to put up with my sister for about 5 minutes after the service to then go our separate ways again. I'm currently trying to figure out whether to let this go ahead, as they won't be sat with us and I'll only see the two afterwards for them to say hi to DD and then having pics with her. I can't exactly stop my mum now either as she knows where and when. But we were going to go out for lunch which I had originally said my mum could come along, but will withdraw my invitation to that. Why can't things just be easy hey?

Feeling awful now. As we were going out, I saw my mum on her way to ours with lots of Easter Eggs in tow. The look on her face when we drove past made me just feel like the world's biggest bitch. And I keep trying to tell myself I'm not, I shouldn't feel guilty, but I can't help it.

DP keeps asking me what's wrong, but I can't quite tell him. He's great, he listens, he supports me. When I asked DP if he thought I was being too harsh on my mum, he said he knows that our relationship has never been a good one and will support my decision all the way. But he's never been in my situation, doesn't know what it feels like to be made to feel guilty about something you haven't done wrong, to have all the feelings that use to plague you when you were a child still bubble up to the surface whenever in her presence.

To make things worse, DD has been acting up this week. We've been going out doing something fun each day, but the past few days she's acted like she doesn't care or is not having fun. Like today, we went out for a meal and the place did an Easter egg hunt which DD got a big Easter egg from, and then we went to the beach and she played and made sandcastles, and we all had a great day. But in between, like after the Easter egg hunt, she suddenly became sad. And again when we came home, she was sad. And then when I put her to bed, I asked if she had a good Easter, and she said sort of, but couldn't really explain to me as to why she hasn't had a good one. I just feel like I'm a terrible mother now who can't even please her own child :(

Sounds like you've had a crappy day.
Maybe your DD is picking up on you feeling a bit down and sad?

Maybe. She did mention she misses her friends, so I've arranged for us to have one of her friend's over on Tuesday so hopefully that will perk her up and keep her going til school again in just over a week's time. DD does love school so maybe she's feeling a bit at a loss when she's at home all the time.

Ended up talking to DP. Made me feel better. Told him how I felt guilty and he reminded me as to why I'm doing this and that he thinks she got away lightly for what she's done. He expressed how angry he was with what she had done which again reminded me I have no reason to feel guilty, though I keep reminding myself that. Just hard after many years of feeling everything is my fault.

Have a look at that Out of the Fog website Bear (and all). It's for people who are related to someone with a personality disorder; lots of info plus a support section too. It's an american site but tbh I'm not fussy (nothing like it here that I've found anyway!)

Sorry it's been so awful for you today Bear xx

Here

Thanks for that springydaffs, I shall have a look at that.

homeboys, DP did suggest it to me. I think it probably would help as Im frustrated that she hasn't seen what the actual problems are yet again. I don't think she will change, but I suppose like you say, least it can give me peace of mind to at least try and then if it fails, know where I need to be.

Sorry youve got a mother like that. Ive cut all normal contact with mine. I do take the Dcs to see her about twice a year but dont speak to her except for that.ive always been the scapegoat.im so glad i realised it eventually and reading the narcissist lit/websites has really helped plus counselling.

I would have so liked to have a loving normal mum. I do have some kind relatives though for which Im glad.

My sister from realising we had a very different upbringing and being ok has now moved to a position of backing my mother and thinking it is fine to scapegoat me. I have very little contact with her and since she has moved abroad wont have much to do with her again.

Its all very very sad but I feel Ive got to protect myself. I do deserve to be treated well and wont let myself be scapegoated any more. Glad youve got a supportive DP - that really helps. Wishing you all the best to get the relationship sorted out so that she doesnt undermine you any more

Thanks Mumfun. Sorry to hear you have had similar experiences. It is hard. I've always wanted just a normal family too, but I know I can have that with DD and DP now. I'm glad to hear you are in a position now to know that you don't deserve to be treated badly and working out how to not be treated like a scapegoat.

The continuation of bad family dynamics into the next generation of daughters was the reason I broke off contact with my mum. DD was 18 months old and I swear to god I could feel the cycle start up all over again. I'd get overwrought from a bad visit with mum, DD would pick up on it, as babies do, and I could forsee the nasty comments dripped into her ear as she got older, just like your DD experienced Bear

So, I explained to my mum that I had tried my hardest to make our relationship work, and that it was clear there had been no effort on her part to do the same. I told her that for the sake of my mental health and in the best interests of my DD, the only circumstance under which I would consider re-establishing our relationship was if she met me in any kind of realtionship/family therapy she chose to work on changing our relationship dynamic to a healthy one.

DD is nearly 6, and whilst mum makes a big martyry show of how much she misses DD to anyone who'll listen, DB's in particular of course, she's not willing to try therapy to fix our relationship. The joke of it all is she's an academic psychologist, but she's too good for therapy! Her solution is just to try and forget all the bad and start anew. I explained to her that was what I have been doing with her my entire life, and I was done.

This has worked for me because whilst I would genuinely have tried to make family therapy work, ultimately I'm sure it wouldn't have changed anything between us because she genuinely doesn't see that she's in the wrong about the abuse she subjected me to, so then I could wash my hands of her saying I tried everything to fix it, but not even therapy could sort us out. As it is, she wouldn't even make that much of an effort to keep in touch with me and her granddaughter, so we cut to the chase, and I can rest easy knowing I tried everything I could to make it work and there is literally nothing I can do anymore.

You don't have to put up with this abuse. Your mum has absolutely no right to do this to you, you wouldn't put up with the kind of behaviour you get from your mum from anyone else, she does not have the special right to hurt you and your family simply because she had the privilege of being a mother to you. She abused you and continues to abuse you and the privilege of motherhood.

She wants you to feel guilt because she's trying to reassert control over you and you're pulling away. She'll pull out all the stops and throw a big old tantrum about it pulling in everyone from the family and mutual friends if you continue to assert yourself. The way to deal with it, and I can tell you this from personal experience, is to rise above it. Refuse to discuss the situation with anyone else, explain politely that it's a very personal matter that you don't feel is appropriate to discuss with anyone else. Repeat yourself with persistent nosy parkers. Don't say anything about your mum, don't give her ammunition. Rage about it behind closed doors with your DH if you need to (he sounds like a lovely fellow ), but publicly it must be a wall of no reaction. It's like with toddlers, sometimes you have to remain impassive as they rage until they get the message, and the longer the bad behaviour has been allowed unchecked the bigger the tantrum, so be prepared. Eventually the dust will settle and people will see your behaviour shine out as impeccable, and your mum will doubtless disgrace herself in trying to reassert control and show everyone that perhaps you have your reasons, IYSWIM.

As for your DD, I would explain to her that her grandmother has behaved badly towards you and her, (again refuse to get drawn into details, use the line, and explain that it's a grown up problem that you can explain to her when she's older), and that for the time being you're going to take a break from her. I have less experience with this cos DD was a baby when I cut contact, but what I do know is your mum was inappropriately bringing your DD into your messed up relationship and that shit needs to end right now. Don't feel bad about cutting her off from her grandmother, and she will play that card a whole bunch, but you are protecting her from your mother's poison and that is what responsible parents do. Just remember that.

Stay strong Bear, here's some unMN (((hugs))) from a fellow scapegoat who broke free.

Hi dizietsma, thank you so much for that post. It sounds like you've been through a lot and tried everything. I'm shocked to hear your mum refused to do therapy with you.

About 4 years ago I had a breakdown, mostly resulting to my mum. She didn't think she had anything to do with it. I had counseling. My GP was very good to me. Unfortunately I share the same GP as my mum, and my mum kept going to her asking what I had been saying which obviously GP didn't answer. GP suggested to her we did therapy together. Mum had asked me about it, but at the time, I said no, as I was not in the right mind frame to be able to talk about my darkest secrets, especially as I know my mum too well. If I brought up something like the abuse I suffered, she would have denied it and then kept pestering me over and over whilst at home as to what I meant or what I would say. I still feel she'd do the same now, although I'm not so sure if she would be so willing to go now. But again I don't know if I feel comfortable with doing that.

I do keep reminding myself that I wouldn't accept it off anyone else so why her? Something I've asked myself for years. I have kept quiet since I had a go at her. The only time I've contacted her this weekend was to thank her for the Easter eggs she had dropped off, as I didn't want to seem rude, although still rightfully angry. DD hasn't mentioned her, luckily she seemed to have forgotten we were originally going over there for Easter. To be honest, DD knows our relationship isn't great. She knows we don't always get on. Not through seeing it, but because I told her, as she has a really bad relationship with her father (doesn't call her, sees her 4 times a year and doesn't do anything with her when he does see her) so I'm honest with DD about my family problems so she knows that her situation isn't a one-off and that lots of other people have similar problems, me being one as my dad left when I was 7 and he didn't bother too much with us either.

An example about a month ago or so with my mum, she had gone into hospital to have an operation, which I knew was going to happen at some point, but she didn't tell me when. She then told sister when in hospital she didn't want me to know as she thinks I don't care. I was so angry and hurt by this as I hadn't done anything to show this. In fact, I had been spending more time than usual with her and this was the thanks I got. Got a shitty message from my sister, which I didn't bother responding to, as tbh she isn't worth my time. This is kind of the approach I have taken to my mum now.

I'm considering DP's idea of talking to her, and like homeboys said, somewhere neutral. I think I need to think for a while what I want to say exactly. It's going to be a struggle I know to have myself heard, but least I can try. I am lucky to have DP for such good support. He's seen as how hurt and upset I get because of her, and although he's always really pleasant to her when we do see him, he always makes sure he's with me if I'm to see her. He has also been a fantastic father role to DD so I am very lucky to have found him :)

Great that you're ignoring your sister and your mum, rise above.

Wonderful that your partner is so protective of you, that has been a saving grace for me too, it's very validating to have someone else see the abuse and for what it is and be outraged about it, isn't it? So nice for us scapegoats to have someone in our corner, certainly not what we're used to!

Have you read Toxic Parents? It has a section about writing The Letter, and you might want to read that chapter before you meet your mum and say what you need to say to her. That way you have it all written down and she'll find it harder to derail you, because you can refer back to it when under fire, IYSWIM.

It's a good thing that your DD understands things aren't always great between you and your mum, it'll make things easier to explain if you cut contact, and is a valuable lesson for her to learn in any case. Role modeling that no-one has the right to treat you badly is a very important thing us mama's must show to our daughters IMO.

If you don't feel comfortable with the idea of family therapy then don't do it. You know best what would work, and to be honest it doesn't sound likely that it would do anything other than create a lot of drama and hurt for you, you don't need that. I brought it up mainly because suggesting and being knocked back for family therapy was the step I took that allowed me to feel like I had exhausted all options, it gave me "permission" to quit, but I didn't really need to do that, and neither do you. You have the absolute right to end any relationship that hurts you, that's the important thing to remember.

Oh absolutely. When I first told DP about it back in our first year of being together, he thought I was possibly exaggerating things, but after seeing how I am with my mum and how she sometimes talks to me, he took it more seriously. We were quite young when we first got together anyway so I put it down to him being stupid and young lol. But it is great to know I have someone there for me, whether a shoulder to cry on or someone to vent my issues at. It has been a great help, and I'm glad you have someone in your corner too dizietsma.

I haven't read it yet. I've been recommended it. I get paid tomorrow so have a list of books I need to get from Amazon so that'll be another. Sounds like a good idea. I did think of writing a letter with everything I would say, though not necessarily give it to her. So I may try that out.

DD is very clever for her age. She has a good sense of knowing people IYKWIM. She's quite mature for her age too which I think really she needed to be to deal with everything that the ex is throwing at her. We are currently setting up a meeting with a family worker at her school so she can have someone to talk to about her problems, as I know the situation with her father really bothers her so I want her to have someone to turn to if she feels she can't talk to me. She also knows about Childline as I used them when I was little. She knows I've been counseling as well which is probably why she decided to go for the family worker.

No that's fine. It's nice to hear everyone's experiences. I'm so glad to hear you were able to move on and things seem to be better for you :)

Hi Bear. I just want to say, if you feel guilty about your mum then read back your OP. Those things she said are despicable. You only feel guilty because that's the pattern she's browbeaten you into over the years.

Very best of luck. Hope your DD having a friend over tomorrow helps perk her up!

Thanks giagindi. I will do if I feel bad again. She seems a bit better today. We are having a lazy day, so just playing games so maybe I was over doing it a bit with going out. She's looking forward to tomorrow :)

Bear,

Your mother has made you the scapegoat for her ills. CHildren from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; yours is the scapegoat.

Adults who were children of such toxic people often fear FOG - fear, obligation, guilt. All these feelings are totally misplaced BTW. You think your mother feels at all guilty in how she has treated you - no chance. Toxic people never ever apologise for their actions.

Abusers are not nasty all the time and your mother will not change. She is patently not the mother you want her to be; her own parents likely made her this way. It is not your fault that any of this happened so please do not blame yourself. Please do yourself a favour and not keep going back for more re your mother. You deserve far better. Toxic parents like your mother are more than happy and adept to pass on their toxic crap to the next generation i.e your child. It is no surprise to me at all that she has done this re your DD.

You must NOT do any joint therapy with your mother, only counselling for your own self solely. GP does not understand toxic parent dynamics at all. Would also suggest you change your GP as well (this is also used to control you, she perhaps suggested this GP to you); start separating from your toxic mother in small but decisive ways.

I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward and read/post on the Stately homes thread.

Hi AttilaTheMeerkat, thanks for your post.

It is true, I don't think she's ever sincerely apologised for anything. The last time we had a fallout because I wasn't happy with how she had been treating me, she said she was sorry because she thought that was what I wanted to hear.

Where you wrote "She is patently not the mother you want her to be; her own parents likely made her this way." that really stuck out to me. I know she'll never be the mother I wanted. And I know her father was quite hard on her and my uncle. My uncle enlisted up to the navy to get away. So I know things were tough for her, which is probably why I also feel a bit sorry for her. I also have a lot of reasonings behind the way she treated me and not the others, though more because I needed something to believe in other than thinking I was just an awful person. My thoughts are that mum was forced to marry my dad because she ended up being pregnant with me, and my dad is from a very religious family. I think she always felt a bit resentful towards me, particularly as my dad was very close to me when I was little. I think also she doesn't like how I've found someone who I'm very happy with and treats me with respect, whereas I believe my dad cheated on my mum (though I'm not 100% but it's the feelings I get from it). But again, there's no reason for her to take her anger out on me. I haven't treated DD badly for the way my childhood was or how my mum still treats me.

It is a good idea to start separating myself from her. I will think about other ways I can do that. I will definitely get the book. I have posted on the Stately Homes thread, and will keep an eye on it :)

My mum just tried to call. Sent me a text asking me to let her know when I'm free to talk. Really not in the mood to talk. I know she'll be particularly wanting to clear the air before DD's holy communion, but I can't be bothered if I'm honest. Have had another horrid day and talking to her isn't going to help. I've very busy over the next few days before the HC anyway, so really can't squeeze in a chance to see her, even if I was ready to discuss things. DP is away til Saturday now. Possibly why I've made lots of plans over the next few days to ensure I'm not in for too long during times when she could come knocking. Have even opted to parking somewhere different so she can't see I'm in! Feels a bit pathetic, and possibly more avoiding problems than sorting them out, but too much going on at the moment with the worries of the anger and upset the conversation with my mum will bring.

I think keeping busy is fine, and if it means you get some space from your mum then so much the better, eh?

How're things today then?

Things have been ok. But literally as I walked through the door this evening, she was phoning me. She then sent me a message to say that she wanted to speak to me to know what has been said by DD (already told her) and that she doesn't know what she has done to upset me (already told her). She wants to meet me half way and talk to me and if we can sort it out. I might send her a text later to just say I'm not ready to talk but will do at some point. But I'm not even 100% sure when exactly I would want to talk to her, so don't want to say I will do at some point if I don't end up wanting to IYSWIM.

Oh and thanks for asking dizietsma :)