Coping with MIL- Avoidant Personality Disorder

[lulu1414]

I have really struggled with my MIL for years. My DH also struggles with her, but is lovely and loyal and so her behaviour upsets him but he doesn't want to talk about it. He gets quite sensitive about it all and the only thing we really fight about is his mother. For years I have felt there is something pathological about her behviour and I am starting to think she may have Avoidant Personality disorder, depression or anxiety disorder.

She is anxious ALL the time and works herself into a frenzy. She has no friends and no real life and hardly leaves the home. She is a hoarder and her house is a disaster despite repeated attempts by us to sort it out.

I'm not really sure why I am posting other than to vent and to also ask how I can cope with her visits and interaction with her. She is on her own as FIL left her a few years ago. I really don't think she would seek any professional help as she does not see she has a problem- blames it all on her age. She wants to see DD and so do we, but her visits are so difficult and uncomfortable and she resists any discussion or real interaction.

I mean she wants to see DD and we want her to have a relationship with DD, but I find her visits very difficult and stressful and often cause arguments between DH and myself.

Sorry to read things are so tough.

She puts things down to her age - what age is she?

Is she able to hold full conversations, and can she cope with verbal debates or challenges?

You said she resists any discussion or real interaction - is that even with your DD around?

Sorry for all the Q's, jus getting a fuller picture.

How old is your DD btw?.

I would think your self assessment of your MIL is along the right lines in terms of a personality disorder. She is averse totally to seeking any help for this (she has probably shown these types of symptoms for most if not all her adult life so it is not just down to age) so you need to act re MIL basically in your own best interests and maintain distance physically and emotionally. Both you and your DH need to present a united front to this lady as well as boundaries.

People like your good self who fortunately do not come from families where such dysfunction is unknown find such people even harder to deal with. Infact such people do not and never will play by the "rules" governing normal familial relations so "normal" rules do not apply.

Your DH not wanting to talk about his mother or infact facing up to her difficulties as they are is not helping either himself or you.

Do you know exactly why FIL left a few years ago?.

Trying to tidy a horders house too is both a waste of time and effort on your part (hoarding is also anxiety based). Read up on hoarding if you have not already done so.

You cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped and it won't do your DD any favours either to try and continue such a difficult at times relationship with her Nan. You as her parents have found the relationship with her problematic to say the least: it won't be any better for your DD either.

Thanks so much for your response. She is 65 (hardly old! And my mum is much older, but still working, very active, lots of friends, involved with grandkids etc).

FIL left because he found her increasinly difficult. I don't know the whole story, although we are still in contact. The family is very British reserved, stiff upper lip etc. They had lived apart for some time because of his work committments.

There is no discussion, debate, communication. If challenged she just ignores you. I think this is what drives me so mad- having someone in your midst who does not listen, interact, discuss, debate etc. There is definitely no full conversation and she will always interrupt and doesn't listen to answers so you cannot hold a conversation with her.

Yes, I've read about hoarding and I know it is probably all part of the same package. If you raise any of these issues she either ignores you or laughs it off. To be honest, I barely speak to her because I find it so infuriating and also because it is so one sided.

I feel for my DH but not sure if we just grin and bear it or try to make changes. I know DD (who is 2 1/2) will find it difficult too but at the moment she is too young to let it worry her. But MIL is terribly hovering with DD and everything is a potential danger. DD will soon get frustrated by this. Also, she won't play with DD on her level- just wants her to come to her and do what she wants.

I just wish I could cope with it and get through it, but I find it SO annoying and odd.

Thanks again for listening!

PS She is not nasty or mean (at least not to us or to our faces!) and in a strange way this makes it more difficult. If she was openly rude to me then my DH would jump in, but he feels she is just misguided and a bit odd. He doesn't think she has a serious problem. So we just feel sorry for her, but I feel it is more serious than all this and I also feel she says things and acts in ways that are disrespectful.

Hi lulu,

re your comment:-
"I feel for my DH but not sure if we just grin and bear it or try to make changes"

Neither is a good option as both could just end up making you even more frustrated. Making a change also has to be a two way process and your MIL clearly does not want to know so that idea is a non starter. You can only change how you act towards her.

People are all different and we act as we are made.
I also think your DH is in a sad mix of denial and or perhaps disbelief in that this always happens to "other families". This happening to his own mother is very painful for him to see.

I would maintain physical and emotional distance between yourselves and MIL and have firm and clear boundaries re her. You really do not need your DD caught up in this situation as well, it will do her no favours in either the short or long term.

Thanks. We actually live abroad at the moment, so physical distance not really an issue. But, of course, this means longer stays when we do see her and so more chances of difficulty. It was easier when we could just drive down and see her for a few hours then head off. But now I have had to see her on my own with DD or she has to come to stay or eventually we will have to stay with her.

I agree it is painful for DH to see and so it is difficult to talk about, but we are totally open about everything else so I wish we could meet on common ground about her. The problem is that he think I am too hard on her or mean about her, so he is reluctant to have discussions about it. Sometimes she drives him so bonkers that he does talk about it and we can get somewhere, but that happens rarely. He also finds her very difficult, but he is more ready to just cope with it on the few occasions we see her.

So here is the doozy... she is coming here next week for another visit and I will be on my own with her for 2 days and 2 nights. I am dreading it!!!!

Both my parents were a bit like this with the communication/debate thing. I could never have a real conversation with either of them. My mum wouldn't talk about anything remotely stressful and always seemed to be in a world of her own and my dad has the attention span of a knat and switches off halfway through the first sentence I say, I feel like he is never listening and if we talk about something he will forget immediately after. I don't think he listens at all even if it is something really important, I have to keep reminding him that I'm talking! He will just sort of not be hearing me and will start his own conversation even though I am in the middle of telling him something. So I grew up feeling like I wasn't listened to and no one was interested in what I was saying. It's affected the type of mum I am as well cos if I think my children aren't listening to me I go mental (really over the top). I know this isn't really the same as what you are saying but I thought there were similarities and I sympathise.

What's Avoidant Personality disorder?

I think it's unfair and unreasonable for your husband to expect you to spend any alone time with her knowing how she makes you feel.

I don't know what to say wrt to her issues. She does sound like she's headed for more problems further down the line. I'm the sort of person that would want to tackle things as they arise rather than waiting for them to develop but it sounds as though it's too painful for your DH.

Absolutely, brass. My DH would not want me to have to spend time alone with her, but because he has been called away to work there isn't much of a choice. But I think you may be right that I should get across that I am really worried about it- once things settle down I will try to talk to him about it.

Agreed that she is headed for more problems. I am like you in that i need to tackle it, but honestly I feel I have been tackling it for over 10 years. We kept coming up with strategies to make it better, but they never worked!

I'm a bit baffled by your post OP, also by some of your responses - have I missed something? I've read through your posts but I can't understand why you don't accept her. You have identified that there are probably mental health issues in the mix.. and? why do you want her to be 'normal' ie without mental health issues, particularly as hers are largely harmless. You are lucky that she is interested in you and your family, many ILs aren't, which causes a lot of pain for a lot of people. She may be strange but she sounds harmless tbh. Why have you tried to clear up her house, also why repeatedly? That's how she wants to live, her choice not yours. I am alarmed that you are critical of the minutiae of how she interacts with your dd - she is talking to dd isn't she? Her interaction may not be out of the latest childcare book but she's talking to her, interested in her, interacting with her - I can't see what the problem is tbh, on any level. It may be a strain to spend time with her, particularly for long stretches, but it would be a lot easier if you accepted her and didn't try to change her. I'm not surprised your DH is defensive about your criticisms of his mother when she hasn't done anything particularly wrong, is just a bit strange (and obviously vulnerable).

I agree she is harmless, but think I have a right to feel upset or concerned. It is not only upsetting to me, but to my husband.

We tried to help her with the house as it was getting too much for her and she at one point asked for help. She said she can't cope with it, but doesn't know where to begin and is overwhelmed by it. Also, she is aware she has to move out in the next few years and so we wanted to sort it out slowly as she will be increasingly unable to do so.

I am not asking her to be "normal" I am trying to make the situation better for all involved or at least understand why I find it so difficult. Perhaps the problem is me and my reactions, but if so, then I need to change and that is what I am asking for- a way for me to cope better.

If you want me to suggest what she has done to upsset me i could... like suggesting my 3 miscarriages were my fault for "not taking it easy". Constantly bringing up my miscarriages and pointing out how no one else (?) seems to have these problems. Criticising me for working, for not wearing skirts, thiniking there was something wrong with my DD because she was premature etc. I chose not to go into these things as this isn't really the issue- the issue is her anxiety and how she brings this into our home and causes disputes.

Lulu, don't worry about Springy, it's very hard to understand the reality of coping with dysfunctional parents if you haven't been there.

Lulu - about the visit next week. Have you got a friend or two with children similar ages to yours who would be willing to spend a day with you? Arrange a visit to a zoo or something, you, friend, MIL. Don't ask your MIL, tell her that's what's happening. Would that work? So you'll have adult company and dd will have fun. If your MIL doesn't join in / listen / talk to dd / reply / etc it won't matter so much.

Ah, I've just seen the anxiety bit. Will she go out? Can you be very bright, breezy and loud over all the anxious hovering? It may help to think of her as an infant too. She is not doing what she does deliberately, she has just never grown up (emotionally). But at the same time you don't have to politely defer to her wierdnesses in the way you might to an adult. It is ok to say "don't be silly MIL! [big encouraging smile] of course dd can go up the climbing frame!". Would that work?

Ah hell. So easy to give advice for other people's parents... I feel for you!

Thanks, Toomany. I was about to retreat there!

Your idea of involving a friend and a visit is a good one. I may do that, but I am worried about the fact that MIL is very shy and social awkward and so this might cause her more anxiety. Also, is a terrified passenger and where we live the driving is very scary for even the least anxious person!

About the anxious hovering- yes, I agree with your tactic.

Must psych myself up for the visit. I think, as you say, it will be easier if things are planned and shaped.

"it's very hard to understand the reality of coping with dysfunctional parents if you haven't been there"

Are you kidding?!? BOTH mine are as mad as hatters, dysfunctional extraordinaire. A brood of vipers for siblings too. I'm tempted to go for the prize of The Most Dysfunctional Family on the planet.

I'm perfect though, of course

My point was that mental health problems can unsettle people as a matter of course, that we all want people to be 'normal' and can't accept (what we deem as) abnormal. I would say that I get very little from my parents - actually, that's not true, they love me and I know that, but I have to negotiate unbelievable obstacles strewn in my path when I see them (their emotional interaction is like your MIL's house OP, full of piles of rubbish and shit and god knows what).

I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions based on your OP Lulu, I guess it hit a nerve - I feel very defensive about the stigmatisation of people with mental health problems - they are people too, usually incredibly sensitive because they have been routinely rejected and dismissed, treated with very little respect.

It does sound like you're blaming her though Lulu - sorry. Your disputes with your DH about her are probably for a number of reasons, but it doesn't sound like you accept her as she is. You say that the outrageously tactless things she has said about your miscarriages are not the point, but I think they can't not be. I've had one miscarriage and that was bad enough, I can't imagine the pain of 3, plus insinuations made about prem birth, etc etc. You would be superhuman if these hadn't hurt and intensely angered you. Your imo legitimate anger towards her for the awful things she's said about very painful things in your life could well be colouring how you feel about her? It sounds like you may be focusing on the incidentals when the real issue is the things she's repeatedly said that have been awful, deeply upsetting and painful. Plus totally outrageous and inappropriate imo. I wouldn't blame you for hating her for that Lulu - are those things the real issue?

Good points. springy, but honestly her tactless and hurtful comments are not the point. I am aware that she doesn't mean them to be hurtful and that she is just very awkward and a bit clue-less. To be honest, they probably hurt my DH more as he was the one she said them to. I'd be lying if I said they didn't bother me, but these sorts of comments aren't the issue (honest!). The thing is she dwells on the negative and clearly sees the world as very negative and so her focusing on my miscarriages or problematic pregnancy is just par for the course. I was just thinking abotu how last time I saw her she mentioned my last miscarriage within 10 minutes of seeing me and then moved on to how anxious a time my daughter's birth must have been (not ideal given I am pregnant again and we have to think about complications!!!). But I know it is just the way she sees the world- my question is how do I handle someone who sees the world in this way and yet has no insight that this is how they are.

As for mental health issues- I am very sensitive to these as I worked in this area for years, had depression many years ago and have two close members of my family who have depression or biopolar. But the difference is that my family (thought messed up as they all are!) can talk about things and are aware to some extent and seek some sort of help. We are also able to use humour, love and affection. I don't want to change her, but in an ideal world I would like her to get help as she certainly isn't happy and it is only getting worse. In addition, her anxiety is putting a barrier up.

Agreed I am not taking her as she is. This is my point and the reasons I originally posted- how do I learn to cope with her and find a relatively contented way to have her in our presence? I cannot like- she drives me round the bend and I DH and I have tried many different ways to try to make things easier, but she always seems to throw down a barrier.

We can't change people, only ourselves. She's like she is, she's also long in the tooth, shows no signs of recognising she's (causing) a problem, genuinely thinks life is the way she sees it. Ultimately, you can't change that. But you can put some boundaries in place, though that's all you can do. You can't work out a way to enjoy her - she doesn't sound very enjoyable - or to have any quality of time with her, you have to accept that isn't going to happen. It would be lovely but with the raw material you are presented with it doesn't sound possible.

Is she a different nationality to you Lulu?

Yes- although the same nationality to my parents and I have lived in her country for close to 15 years. I do feel her coldness is more to do with her personality than anything else, but DH family is very cold, formal etc (odd since he is the opposite- very warm, demonstrative etc). He was sent to boarding school at the age of 6 and so her role in his life has been minimal.

I feel like I need to be quite Zen and let it go but I am struggling to do so!

I think you're right. You need to be quite Zen and let it go! She may well have a PD since she is [a] rigid in her behaviour patterns and [b] incapable of understanding why her behaviours bother other people. Basically she's not going to change, she's not hurting anyone except with her runaway mouth, and is an adoring grandmother. So there are sufficient reasons to keep her in your life.

You need detachment techniques. I'd recommend training yourself in 'mindfulness meditation' (there are lots of audio books on Amazon) and using therapy visualisations like 'cord cutting' and 'shielding'. Here are some links:

beyond-within.com/blog/energy-work/energy-cords-working-with-them-for-emotional-freedom/

www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php?topic=4838.0

Keeping yourself distracted by having friends round, planning plenty of activities and so forth should also help you keep your feelings for yourself, while letting her have her own :) Good luck.