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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Explaining narcisstic mum to others

22 replies

prettywhiteguitar · 17/03/2011 12:22

I'll keep it short cause i'm feeling pretty drained.

I'm 7mths pregnant, my mum has been to stay since monday, to help me with a lift to work.

She was planning to come anyway so helped me with this two birds one stone all that.

She is a nightmare but everytime she comes I try to build a new start with her. This time she was unbearable as she was doing me a favour.

Told her to leave as she had been a drain on me and that she had originally told me she was going today (i marked on the calendar) so I know I'm not going maD, but decided she would stay another night - no mention til last night to me just to my other half.

She went mental screaming that I was selfish had used her.

I think I might have done it, no more contact, no more of her emotional bull shit..

I cannot take anymore

but I feel bad obviously and also need to explain to dp's parents who she had befriended exactly what she is like so they have some understanding ???
I have afeeling she will ring Dp's mum to tell her and I will get a phonecall sometime today asking me to explain myself....
I know they can't relive my childhood but is there a way of explaining to others that doesn't make you look like a paranoid, self centered bitch ? And it was just self preservation......

OP posts:
ScaredOfCows · 17/03/2011 12:43

I'd guess that she is probably charm itself to your inlaws? Tricky one, I think in your position I would give them the minimum explanation possible, say that you don't want to talk about her behind her back, but that your relationship has broken down and that this point has been a long time coming. Eventually she will probably show her true colours to them.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 12:43

Oh prettywhiteguitar :( I really feel for you. Going through something very similar myself at the moment.

I don't have any answers and I shall be watching the thread with interest. In the meantime, I've found these two websites really helpful:

Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

Light's House

Going to be facing similar issues as I'm considering lessening contact considerably with my mother but struggling to know how to explain it to others who know her because she can be very charming when she is in others' company and she loves to tell everyone how I overreact, am oversensitive or just can't take criticism. All so believable if you're not witness to the other things she does.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 12:45

Cross-posted with ScaredOfCows - keeping explanations minimal does seem a good option - less ammunition that can be used against you later.

dignified · 17/03/2011 12:45

You dont have to explain yourself to anybody , its none of their business and personally i wouldnt even try . Many people will not understand and will pressure you to make up ect.

I would simply say that there has been a falling out and you dont want to talk about it.

daytoday · 17/03/2011 12:47

I think it is fairly normal to argue with your mum and to not want to have them around, especially when they have been staying. I don't think anyone would feel you are a paranoid, bitch.

Your relationship sounds like my MIL and SIL. From the sidelines I can see that the mother has no idea of normal boundaries and when things don't go her way - she is verbally shockingly abusive.

However SIL, of course, hopes to have something warmer and motherly. She wants something maternal and easy going. My MIL will never be that woman. I feel for my SIL.

Can I suggest that most people will have someone similar to your Mother in their lives. Whether its a friend, a boss or a family member. Also, you might not believe, me but everyone will be fully aware of how unreasonable your mother can be. Especially if she gets on the phone to her in-laws. Simply tell them she was abusive and you won't have her in her house when she behaves that way.

Don't be afraid of appearing unreasonable to others. Who cares? They don't walk in your shoes do they?

prettywhiteguitar · 17/03/2011 13:08

Thank you all for your posts they are very helpful :)

I think the minimum explaination is best as they will not understand as yes of course in small doses she can be very charming/seem normal.

Thank you, I can at least say that and not seem bitchy...I am worried about what they think as they are very nice, genuine people who we see regularly and I want to get on with dp's family.

What she did just before she left was plant a seed of doubt in my mind about my dp's mum. Its the usual emotion manipulation but it just conformed my suspicion that I can't have her in my life anymore...

Very hard when you know you are going to deprive them of a grandchild....grrrrr why can't she just be normal instead of totally insane !!!!!!

she said that dp's mum had told her something but she couldn't tell me as it had been told in confidence but just to let me know that dp's mum and brother were very close...basically infering that they had been talking about me and dp behind our backs.....

she is so good at emotional manipulation.....

I know for a fact that;
a) dp's mum is lovely
b) dp's brother is nice
c) anything about us will have been general family chit chat and possibly about us having a baby but not being married

so she manages to turn something normal that happens between families into something sinister and to be warned about. All this while telling me that I was disowning her cause now I had dp's mum and that I was a user...and I didn't need her anymore...since when is family relations about needing people, I thought it was about liking them ????

Why can't she just be normal ?

OP posts:
brass · 17/03/2011 13:11

I also agree that you shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone. A simple 'it's between me and my mum' should suffice. You don't need anyone else dragged into her drama (it will just feed her sense of importance) and they also need to respect boundaries otherwise that's another situation in the making.

Mumfun · 17/03/2011 13:13

I really feel for you too.

Im a little further on than you. My mother has been heard to say horrible stuff about grandchildren as she doesnt get the level of attention that she sthinks necessary.

Mine has ganged up with MIL against me.

I now have almost no contact. Feels great!
One thing that has helped me -but might be a longer term thing for you is to explain that I wont be scapegoated any more - that I was treated as a scapegoat from early days.

I found daughters of narcissistic mothers very helpful too!

The one thing that is brought out there and on other sites is how charming narcissists often are - it feel like fighting a losing battle to try to explain to people new to your mother. Thats why I say what I explain now and wouldnt have said immediately - it helps when they can see the narcissist longer term and the charm doesnt cover up everything and the self centredness can emerge - especially in their comments about you.

Believe in yourself. personally I refused to have my mother round when I was giving birth. For social reasons I did have to accept her coming to stay later but made sure it wasnt long. And she is practically very able so thee was some practical help

I often looked white and drained once my mother left -was commented about by close friends once she left!

Go by your own instincts -dont let he be there any time you dont want.

brass · 17/03/2011 13:14

and as if they were bitching about you they would be stupid enough to do it in front of your mother!

Mumfun · 17/03/2011 13:15

I posted before you did so didnt get your update. Not shocked by the unpleasant comments -they do it all the time to make themselves bigger and better!Sad

prettywhiteguitar · 17/03/2011 13:17

Rubberduck

Thank you for the link to lights house, after she left I went on the narc Mothers website to remind myself why I put my foot down this time. Lights house is reafirming my relationship with her.

She lays traps for you, I watched her do it to my brother last night at dinner.....this time I was thinking, " I know what you doing even if you don't.."

My brother is in the army and just takes her crap on the chin and goes off for 9 months....he doesn't have to deal with her

OP posts:
ScaredOfCows · 17/03/2011 13:17

PWG "so she manages to turn something normal that happens between families into something sinister and to be warned about" - the thing is though, that she is not 'warning' you, she is actually holding control over you, inferring she has a secret about you that other people have told her, insinuating that those people you hold dear (and that therefore threaten her) don't actually like you,trying to drive a wedge between you and them, and make you insecure and needy of her.

I see it with my mother, I just haven't worked out how to deal with it. We are on minimal contact at the moment, it's the only way I can cope with her.

Rubberduck - the Lighthouse site is good, I haven't come across that one before now.

RubberDuck · 17/03/2011 13:20

"personally I refused to have my mother round when I was giving birth"

I wish I'd figured this out before I had my two children. We did actually request that she didn't visit until we'd been at home with ds1 for 3 days after birth, but foolishly let her know that I was going into labour. She showed up at the hospital and then insisted on staying over :(

In retrospect I see that had a huge impact on how the birth went and on early feeding with ds1 - don't underestimate how important it is to protect that space early on after birth.

prettywhiteguitar · 17/03/2011 13:23

I know, dp's mum is so diplomatic and softly spoken...

she was doing it so that if I didn't have her I couldn't have dp's mum

Mumfun I had a tension headache yesterday after spending an hour alone in the car with her ! Thank you for you advice it really helps. I think that you're right I won''t let her bully her way back in this time i'm going to be strong

Ds is only three, so is only influenced by her so much at the moment, but she equally is only in her early 60's and could live for ages, plently of time to create bad relationships

OP posts:
prettywhiteguitar · 17/03/2011 13:28

Scaredofcows you hit the nail on the head ! But before coming on here I never saw it I always thought it was me

There is no way to deal with it apart from the naughty step. They are not normal and cannot be reasoned with. I am not having her around. I am packing away the spare bed. When she comes to she the baby she will have to go in a b&b

I have no doubt that it will be weeks before she caves in to speak to me but she will want to see the new baby....in other words, she will be back !

even though I'm pregnant and its early afternoon I'm having a virtual Wine

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/03/2011 13:42

Prettywhiteguitar

You have my sympathies. I've also found these excerpts helpful when dealing with my outlaws and BIL who is also a narc. It is okay not to want to seek their approval any more, think this is why people keep coming back for more. The FOG state - fear, obligation, guilt, is often seen in adult children of toxic, dysfunctional parents.

"Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people's opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods. Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they'll never share a dream for two.

Now, it is possible to have a relatively smooth relationship with a narcissist, and it's possible to maintain it for a long time. The first requirement for this, though, is distance: this simply cannot be done with a narcissist you live with. Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.

It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you.

So, yes, it's possible to get along with narcissists, but it's probably not worth bothering with. If family members are narcissists, you have my deep sympathy. If people you work with are narcissists, you will be wise to keep an eye on them, if just for your own protection, because they don't think very well, no matter what their IQs, they feel that the rules (of anything) don't apply to them, and they will always cut corners and cheat wherever they think they can get away with it, not to mention alienating co-workers, clients, and customers by their arrogance, lies, malice, and off-the-wall griping. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will say ANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later.

If you're reading this because of problems with someone you know now, the chances are excellent that one or both of your parents was a narcissist. Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them. Sometimes narcissists' children become narcissists, too, but this is by no means inevitable, provided stable love was given by someone, such as the non-narcissist parent or grandparents. Beyond that, a happy marriage will heal many old wounds for the narcissist's child. But, even though children of narcissists don't automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent "You can't get blood out of a stone," but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart. Thus, we've been trained to keep loving people who can't love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore.)

If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. Narcissists cannot be satisfied and do a tremendous amount of damage to their children and partners in their relentless demand for a perfect outer appearance to reflect the perfect inner image that obsesses them".

moonbells · 17/03/2011 14:08

Thankyou for those links. I now realise this helps me understand my mother.
Ever since I didn't get through an exam and was phoned - at a party! - to be told "You are a failure, now I know you're not really clever", I've wondered. (Also why she spoke to the examiners!) I subsequently got a PhD in physics and she's never dared pull that one again.

The Narcissistic mothers website was very helpful - she's mild but the traits are there... even to now being disabled and wanting everyone to do everything for her. We know she wouldn't be disabled if she'd get off her bum, but she'd rather have everyone dance about. Classic again. Ditto talking about what so-and-so's children have been doing, how great they are as a backhanded insult to me. And as for the projection of guilt for years because I didn't duly present her with grandchildren! (abc has had another baby and I have none! To which my answer was usually that she should have had more children than one then, shouldn't she?)

I wish I'd read this years ago... explains a lot! Also that she will never change.

thanks

Fluffycloudland77 · 17/03/2011 15:44

I don't see my parents at all, I gave up on them when I was 28. My dad tries to make contact but narc mom doesn't. Coping without them is less stressful than coping with them.

And if your mil is a diplomatic person I'd imagine she will know to keep out of it. It really is no ones business but yours

MizzyDizzy · 17/03/2011 15:53

In my experience your genuine/average person finds it well 'off' and odd when one family member starts trying to devalue another.

Tbh I think I'd have to allow my MIL to discover what my mother was like from her own experience.

Trying to even begin explaining how these people work to the uninitiated always seems to come across as if YOU are the one with the problem. Confused

It's only later that the truth becomes apparent...

ScaredOfCows · 17/03/2011 16:55

Moonbells - oh, I get that one too, how marvellous everyone elses kids/grandkids are. My mother usually has a 'perfect person' in her sights at any given time that I can never measure up to (even assuming I wanted to!).

Have just come off the phone to her, not spoken for nearly 2 months although we live just 5 minutes away. Anyway, apparently I am a crap parent etc, etc.

PWG - it's such a difficult situation, isn't it. I think that when you have young children especially, you want to protect them from the narc relative, but eventually the children will see the reality for themselves - my children certainly have. It's great though, that you have a good relationship with your inlaws. I hope you manage to keep your mother at arms length until after the baby is born, at least.

garlicbutter · 17/03/2011 19:12

I say:

My mum's very sweet and eccentric.
We're not a particularly close family anymore.
Mum can be trying at times.
Oh, she's lovely: batty as anything!
She had a hard life; unfortunately it rubbed off on me.
I understand her very well, but sadly she wasn't the best mum.
Oh, is Mum doing her drama again?
She means well, but she's so ... difficult sometimes.
I try to keep her at arm's length.
Well, she is bonkers you know.
She just goes her own way.
Yes, she's good in small doses.
There's a lot of water under that bridge.

I mean all these things sincerely. What I don't tend to add is that TWO psychiatrists have intervened to get her out of my life. This not only means she's seriously dangerous, but also that she managed to fuck me up so badly I needed extended mental health care. Of course I advise others to get that distance before the same thing happens to them.

It's not you, it's her.

prettywhiteguitar · 17/03/2011 20:47

Thank you everyone its really made me feel better that others don't have normal relationships with their mothers too.

Just told dp and he was really supportive, also suprised as I've buffered her since dad died but tried to explain that this is normal for her....thinks his mum will just not get involved so I'm feeling better about family relations

It's not me its her, its not me its her.....

Only now old enough not to feel guilty about arguing. I'm not a bad person, she is manipulative, but its so difficult as you look back on the conversation and she really knows how to press my guilt button

anyway Wine

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