Marriage on the rocks

[DHneedingHelp]

My DW has long viewed the pages of mumsnet, so when I realised our relationship was on the rocks I too started reading.... I need you're help, our marriage has been good and can be again, so please do what you ladies do and shoot from the hip.

We've been married for nearly 10 years, and are the result of an affair 2 years earlier. I was married my DW was separated. So the odds were apparently never great.

We're both hard workers, giving loads to the relationship and family life, we've had a fantastic marriage in the main with 2 lovely children, DD 8 and DS 6. We both have had successful careers but 3 years ago my DW had a breakdown, which ended up with a complete melt down and Pneumonia. Work was crazy, DW was working loads of hours, I tried to help but to no avail. She is a great communicator, me not so, so when it all went pear shaped I wasn?t able to give the appropriate support. I now understand the root cause of her upset was that I didn't take any pressure off her for the druggery of keeping the family working smoothly, by taking ownership of tasks. She has never questioned my work effort..
A year ago DW begged for help, saying she could see another breakdown coming and this time she was going to save herself. I thought I understood the issue and worked harder at doing stuff around the house (without taking ownership though).
8 Months ago DW started an affair. A friend at work was listening to her and they made an emotional connection before the affair began. It ended last month when I discovered a very explicit love letter. DW agreed to end the affair and work on sorting out our marriage. So far we've had 3 sessions with a councillor, we are communicating calmly and have discussed the issues.
I have accepted that the root cause of our marriage breakdown is not how hard I work around the home, but that I don't take responsibility. Therefore releasing DW from the stress of managing everything.
I am able to forgive the affair.

DW says she needs to know whether or not she is prepared to commit the next 30 years to our marriage, before we move forward. I love my wife dearly and would do anything to save our marriage. But what are the odds that she's going to stay?
I can give her space and time, but what can I do to convince her I?ll be there to support her, with whatever life throws at us. What can I do?

I'm going to give you exactly the same advice as I would give a woman in your position.

You are taking way too much responsibility here.

You've been very honest about the way your relationship started and I do think it's significant. I wonder whether you actually had different views on infidelity and whereas you perhaps, while not regretting the relationshp with your wife, came to the view that infidelity itself is never justified, whereas your wife believed that it is, in some circumstances and that all is fair in love and war?

The conversations you had in the past about infidelity and the ones you'll have in the future are hugely important, because you need to be on the same page.

If you've ever seen any of my posts, you might have seen me outline the chronology of an affair. In this I state that there are two whole phases before an affair starts; the friendship/mirroring stage and the pre-affair permission giving stage. You say that your wife had an emotional connection to this man before the affair started and this doesn't surprise me. I bet it was in existence when she came to say she was heading for another breakdown and was going to "save herself".

In the pre-affair permission giving process, I've often noticed conversations like this occurring between couples, always instigated by the soon-to-be unfaithful spouse. It is the process of setting you up to fail, because believe me, "saving herself" was shorthand for "I'm going to have an affair" and at that point, nothing you could have done would have influenced what happened next. The die was cast.

Whatever problems existed in your marriage, you are not responsible for her infidelity. Your wife's response to your discovery (significant because she got found out and didn't confess) is to keep you in a state of permanent suspense, subtly blame you for her affair and take all the power in this relationship. She has suffered no consequences it seems and intends to continue working alongside her affair partner.

There is no sense of her horror at your pain, sorrow for her actions or any attempts to put things right and make this up to you. Instead it is her making up her mind whether she wants to stay with you.

Please take back your self-respect here. Being so appeasing is going to not only destroy you, but the relationship. She will not respect you while you are making no conditions for staying with her.

It would be an entirely different matter if your wife had confessed, was terribly sorry and was trying to atone for the pain caused. Relationships can survive affairs and I admire you for your resolve to forgive, but not at the cost of your self-respect and dignity.

I'd be really happy to help you unpick the story you are being given about this affair and why it happened, because I think you are being told a different story to the truth here. In fairness to your wife, she might not yet understand aspects of her affair just yet, but you both need honesty here.

Wow, I'm overwhelmed by you ladies.

So much of what I've read rings true, I don't feel a great sense of regret from DW, except that the affair is over.

We have both held the same view on infidelity since coming together, there's no place for it. If you screw around and get caught, you're a complete B'stard and get kicked out. As soon as you cross that line, you've lost the marriage.

DW is a strong determined person who I've always admired. She has said she wouldn't be leaving me to be with someone else, but to be a single parent. A situation which nolonger scares her. She doesn't feel she can TRUST me to be there for her..

WWIFN has hit the nail squarely on the head (in my mind anyway) as far as DW justifying and defending the affair.

All that said, my behaviour in not supporting DW enough, contributed to our drifting apart.

I'm most of the way through a book recommended in a similar thread (Not just friends by Dr D Glass), it's been a great help in dealing with the trauma of being cheated, with great advice on moving forward through councilling.

Having read you're comments I do see myself behaving like a lap dog, waiting for any scraps to be tossed my way. I've been determined to show DW I am worthy!!! I'm even laughing at myself now.

I do need to MAN up and be strong for me. The process DW is going through is largely out of my hands, until she gets her head straight.

I'm still powerless, but I feel determined now to protect myself. Thank you

A lot of posters seem to be missing the fact that you were the first one to have an affair (albeit with you wife-to-be) so you have form as far as affairs are concerned too and maybe, rightly or wrongly, you dw used this as some form of justification in her mind. She was already separated when she got together with you.

You say you have been fully engaged for the last 2 months "DOING EXACTLY WHAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING AT LEAST A YEAR EARLIER". Hardly a doormat are you, you took your own good time in getting round to helping more and even then only when this delay had possibly contributed to further complications at home.

So really you only took her request for proper assistance seriously when you realised she had drifted into someones else's arms.

On the subject of sharing domestic chores and taking ownership of tasks.....
ItGrimUpNorth Do you realise how f**ing draining and respect destroying it is to have to repeatedly ask one's partner to perform a task which needs doing regularly or perhaps to a set deadline (eg putting the bins out). By "repeatedly ask" I don't mean nag, I mean to have to point out each time it needs doing despite the other person having said that they would take on this task especially when both partners work too.
I'm fairly sure that plenty of couples/marriages/families would benefit from both partners taking complete ownership of certain tasks and not just doing them when asked by the other or when they are causing problems because the task is weeks overdue, it's taking the piss and trying to get away with an easy life for as long as possible, teenager behaviour, not that of a mature adult.

My h doesn't need to be "under instruction" when at work, what is it about the home environment that means he needs supervison/to be told each time his share of the chores needs doing ? Oh yes, that's right it's unpaid, no status work that no-one will notice outside the home and will just need doing all over again shortly.
My h will assess that something needs doing and instead of doing that he'll pick a job he likes such as cleaning the car inside and out or gardening and spend hours on this instead. He'll then feel free to berate me for not tackling the domestic urgent job even though I also have 2 small children needing attention/feeding plus being under the weather with a chest infection. I am constantly catching viruses/colds/developing infections etc because I am run down (and depressed about the state of the house). Cleaning the car or digging the garden over was no help to me, at that point in time, just something he had chosen to do and then used as a stick to beat me with because he'd "spent hours doing x or y".

OP, if you do decide to gloss over your actions here and re-write the history of the relationship to paint yourself as ultimately the only victim, then I think it would be best for it to end now as neither of you can move forward on foundations which are decidedly shaky. I'm not saying that the affair hasn't damaged the relationship but please stick at the counselling and use that as a forum to challenge your wife over "excuses" for the affair or other stuff that you need to get off your chest.

Well INAGL, you are the Miss Marple... sadly barking up the wrong tree, but thanks anyway.

I have abridged our 11 years together and pulled out the saliant points. I am being absolutely honest here, for one I know my DW will read it.

Yes I let my wife and family down by not giving the right support, I was working bloody hard for our family though, doing my fair share of the druggery, just not driving it. Hands up to my short comings, I've turned the corner and these are now my strenghts, good for me.

DW played away, I've listened to her story and can understand how she felt. She's only cried for the loss of the affair, that hurts.

I didn't join mumsnet to rewrite history or look for sympathy, I'm desperate for whatever help I can get. In the month since I discovered the affair, I've read more books and done more research on relationships than at any time in the past, on any subject.

Yet dispite making a heap of changes, DW still doesn't think she can trust me to look after her and she doesn't know if she wants to remain married to me.

So I don't need house keeping tips, I've come to a ladies forum for advice on how to reconnect with someone who has all but given up?

Your assistance is appreciated

Did you have children with your first wife? Either way , you let her down by having an affair with your present wife.This is complicated due to you both having different views on what is and is not acceptable in a marriage/relationship, perhaps?

We both have/had the same view on EMA's, they're not acceptable. What we did all those years ago was wrong.

I do very much regret the way my first marriage ended. It lasted 12 years and there were 2 children. We argued constantly and the last 5 years were truely awful, loveless. It was an absolute sham, neither of us were mature enough to make it work or seek help. I walked away without a fight. I'm ashamed of my actions.

I've been the best Dad I could be.

I agree with ItsGrimUpNorth: the house work thing sounds to me like a convenient emotional figleaf to excuse an affair. Bottom line, no lack of commitment to housework excuses infidelity. Its good and to your credit that you're thinking about the role you've played in this problem you've hit, and it suggests you're someone who can work through these bumps in the road, but it sounds like this impasse is quite lopsided. She's the one putting the marriage at risk and she's the one who needs to front up to this.

You should put your cards on the table sounds like you've already done this and say you're really keen to keep the marriage going but you need to know how committed she is, and then see what comes back. But stop flagellating yourself about housework. As long as you're keeping your side of the bargain, which it sounds like you are, this is rather beside the point.

I'm glad you're reading Not Just Friends, but can I point out something that might help?

That book was written in 2001 and while I think it's the best book yet on the market about infidelity, it was written for a North American readership and doesn't always reflect societal culture in the UK and especially, more recent therapeutic research about female infidelity.

I'm afraid I don't think you were on the same page about infidelity, otherwise your wife couldn't have had an affair. She still had a personal vulnerability to it, whereas perhaps you didn't.

I also think your wife will draw unnecessary comfort and justification from the book's assertions that when women have affairs in long-term relationships, it points to marital discord and relational dissatisfaction. I think this plays right into the societal discourse that women cannot have sex without love, or that women aren't as vulnerable as men to the lure of a romantic and sexual adventure as an escape mechanism from the realities and trials of real life.

What often happens with women's affairs is that because many women still feel unable to own their sexual behaviour and needs, they convince themselves that they are in love with their affair partner, because somehow it makes their actions more palatable if there is love. It doesn't of course and this compulsion to fall in love leads to very poor decision-making about the realities of the affair partner. The OM tends to be idealised and put on a much higher pedestal than he actually merits - and ascribed personal qualities that might not exist. In many cases, this "love" is a trick of the mind to make the affair somehow more honourable, but it is as much of a mirage as the "love" felt by romantic, rather than pragmatic, men.

I can also tell you that if you were a woman posting on here, you would not be pulled up for where you had failed as a wife and carer, especially if you were reporting that your H was ambivalent, not sorry, refusing intimacy and expressing doubt whether you had the ability to care for him properly in the future.

If you want to understand the affair, I'd concentrate less on the relational aspects and more on your wife's individual and social/lifestyle vulnerabilities, as described in the book.

I don't doubt she had a breakdown and debilitating physical illness 5 years ago, but the relational discord she may or may not have felt is only ever part of the story and is the part that tends to get exaggerated by unfaithful partners trying to offload their responsibility and guilt. Your wife had other choices if she was unhappy, but didn't take them. I would focus on your wife's need to escape from life more - and relational discord less.

Incidentally, having read how you feel with hindsight about your first marriage and your regret about the way it ended, I think there are probably links between your wife's behaviour as the OW and her recent affair. I bet when she was your OW, she justified her behaviour then along the lines of she was in love with you, your marriage was in ruins anyway and that people only have affairs when they are unhappy at home.

Was the OM in a relationship, out of interest and your wife became an OW again?

Ineedagoodlawyer, you're damn right I know demoralising, infuriating and row-inducing it is to have to constantly ask someone to do the same tasks over and over. But it does not lead me to seek solace in the bed of another man. And I'm not convinced it would led to a nervous breakdown either.

Very wise and insighful words from Whenwillifeelnormal. Hope you get through this OP.

Agreed with other posters, Im not sure she wants to save the relationship. I can see that you have tried hard to work at bettering it. You clearly state you have seen the error of your ways, and made changes regarding these issues

Ultimately though, a relationship is two way traffic and its appears she is not a eager on repairing the relationship as you are.

I'm going to have a slightly differing opinion here. The fact your DW is cold shouldering you, not sure if she wants to commit to the relationship, had an affair and openly mourned the ending of it - not the damage she has done to your relationship?

Yes, you didnt do your fair share round the house last year - yes, that wasnt great as she felt she was falling down a bit of a hole - didnt mean she had to have an affair though - if she was that pissing unhappy, maybe she could have thought about ending there and then...

My ex-h was spectacularly shite round the house - we both worked FT and then I was also able to have a year as a SAHM and he was even worse. He was emotionally retarded when I really needed help over a family crisis I couldnt cope with. Yes, I felt like the loneliest girl int he world.

Did I have an affair adn then blaim him for it... nah.

We mutally agreed to split as we woke up and realised it wasnt working for either of us.

I'm sorry, but she sounds like a right cow and why should you be doing all you can to make up for her fucking someone else? Sorry to be blunt.

Ladies, thanks for reading my story and taking the time to comment.

Unfortunately my attempts to find a way forward through mumsnet have only caused more disquiet.

I'd read several threads (not hundreds) about relationships, and found comfort and hope from many of the replies. But there was nothing which I felt could give me an edge in the eternal Mars vs Venus conflict, which is why I posted the thread.

I had hoped for some assistance with my 2 questions:

1. What are the chances DW will stay?
2. What can I do to connect

The replies have upset DW and the barriers between us are again piled high. Our breakdown has nothing to do with housework, it was about the management of the family and taking responsibility for a fair share. I now own the house from 5:45am (when our daily routine starts)until 9am, when I drop the kids at school. Everything is much fairer, we're both happy with it and I absolutely enjoy being a fully paid up member of the home. My engagement is full and absolute 24/7, 7/52 etc.

DW is upset by the postings, doesn't like being flagged as a slapper, and wishes we had broken up before the affair. Well, she didn't and I've drawn some balance from those comments. I feel particularly shit that her only regret is not breaking up before the perfect romance took place. It would still have been an affair as the OM is married with an MPV full of kids.

I don't know if I can trust her again, there is no way I want to be sneaking around looking for evidence, it's heartbreaking.

I won't be posting again, I'll not stop reading though, looking for positive outcomes to marriages which have broken down part way through.

P.S.
I'm sorry for dissing ineedagoodsolicitor, I may have though she was barking up the wrong tree but DW didn't (first couple of paras).

It's something I didn't realise about how our values had been eroded though the slog of marriage and we will discuss it with our counciller.

What I've learned about this board in particular though is that the advice you think you want, or in your case the advice a partner wants for you, isn't actually the advice you need....

But there was nothing which I felt could give me an edge in the eternal Mars vs Venus conflict, which is why I posted the thread.

oh dear

I fear this sentence is why you haven't found your thread to be helpful, although there was some very good advice on it.

If you are labouring under that false premise, you will get nowhere I am afraid.

How could we ever tell you if your DW would stay ?

If you have read some previous threads, you know the cheating partner gets very little sympathy and sometimes it can be harsh. You also knew DW would read it. I wonder what your motivation was in laying it bare, tbh. o say the things to her that you are unable to say yourself ? That is unfair on everyone, and unlikely to improve matters for you most of all.

Good luck. I suggest you ask your counsellor (is this couples counselling ?) to try to debunk some of your myths about the your perception of the differences between men and women. In true reality, they are very much less pronounced than you appear to accept.

I've also noticed that just as I imagined, your wife was the OW yet again. You really weren't on the same page at all, were you?

You know, I don't entirely agree that unfaithful partners get very little sympathy and on a predominantly female board like this, they get far more sympathy than a male, as evidenced by the early responses to this thread. As stated upthread, I think you personally OP, got a vastly different response from some posters than a woman might have, in the same position.

Good people do bad things and good people have affairs. It says more about someone if there is a pattern of behaviour (like here), if they don't take responsibility for their behaviour and instead try to deflect it outwards.

It's a shame you've been deterred from having your own personal space to get advice, but of course that's your choice and like so much else you've posted about the conditions your wife seems to be placing on you, it's your choice whether to let your wife impede your personal recovery, as well as your relationship survival.

Hi DHNH

I have been where your DW was a couple of years ago, and my DH posted here for advice (pretending to be a woman?!?)

Peter (in a former life) told him to ditch me. He didn't but I got the message. I had stopped loving my husband for many reasons and was behaving without respect or kindness to him and losing myself.

I moved out six months ago after extensive joint and separate counselling. We are both doing well, he has found someone else and I have my self respect back. I wish with all my heart I hadn't taken the path I did, but I was too afraid, muddled and in denial to see clearly.

In a nutshell I think you need to get tough, tell your DW she has to decide whether to commit to your relationship or leave. You can't make her love you.

Hope it works out for you both

Oh and WWIFN helped me see that one of the reasons I had MA was to punish DH. Do you think your DW is doing this?

< wracks brains and dredges memory banks >

< gives up >