How do I say 'no' to a friend? Advice needed from those with first hand or caring experience of OCD or other mental health issues

[ConcernedYetFrazzledFriend]

How do you say a clear 'no' to a friend who is refusing to accept 'no' for an answer? And how do you do it when said friend is so lost in her own OCD rituals that she is unable to realise how manipulative her behaviour seems?

Before I had DCs, Friend and I had always met up at 9.15 every Thursday morning. It suited us both well: she has severe OCD which makes her unable to cope with any sort of change in schedule or routine, and I had a job which meant that Thursday morning was virtually my only guaranteed time off.

However, I am currently hugely pregnant with DC3 and finding the 9.15-on-a-Thursday-morning slot increasingly difficult to manage, just through having two increasingly energetic toddlers and a busy job. Friend lives over an hour away (I don't drive - I walk to work) and I'm finding the two-bus journey with DS1 and DS2 (both still in a buggy) absolutely exhausting. I've had to cancel on Friend several times, and she's been getting incresingly angry with me. She doesn't have children, essentially due to her illness.

For the past few weeeks, Friend has been talking about how she now needs us to meet at 11.45 on a Tuesday morning. I work all day Tuesdays and meeting her at 11.45 would require me to either to take the whole day off or spend half my weekly salary on taxis to and from hers: I don't want to. I've told her this. She's told me that she's done the research into my job and into DP's work schedule to be able to tell me that my flexitime should accommodate this and DP should be able to look after the DSes. I've told her I still don't want to.

In the past few days, Friend's phone calls and twitter messages have become increasingly chaotic, bizarre and frantic. She has been repetitively and almost childishly asking if we can meet on Tuesdays now, giving increasingly odd and desperate reasons why we meet to and getting incresingly upset with me telling her I can't.

I'm worried about her, and I do care, but her demands are just becoming impossible.

How can I be firm, whilst still conveying that I honestly do care?

Hmm, I dunno . . . as an ex-OCD sufferer (well still get it a bit sometimes) I'd say stand your ground.

People with OCD often feel that something terrible will happen if they don't Do Things Right, and They will be Responsible, so I guess you could try saying "Look, if anything "happens" because we can't meet up, it's MY fault, OK?" . . . that sort of thing used to calm me down sometimes. But I am not sure that's the right way to cope with someone like her.

That's helpful, thanks. I hadn't thought about it from that angle.

Say it's not a case of whether you want to (even if it is really), it's that you can't because a) you are working and b) your flexi-time needs to be reserved for unexpected family situations.

She may have OCD complicating things, but this may be overstepping the boundaries of the personal space of others for different reasons.

Ask her to look at it from your point of view: why can't she commit to your prior arrangement? Your time is just as valuable as hers.

Is she getting any help with the OCD?

I have a friend with it, and her father has it too. They are both on medication (anti-anxiety) and have counselling (CBT) when going through high symptom periods.

I am able to talk to my friend frankly about things, and would not fear telling her that her insistence was becoming obsessive - can you do this? Sometimes if it's called to her attention she will be able to do something about facing it (through the CBT if nothing else).

If you cannot tell her you are concerned about the emphasis she is putting on this particular day and time you might just need to stand your ground, but there is no harm in investigating and saying "why does it have to be then?" to see if there is an irrational thought pattern behind it. If there is, you might be able to reassure her a little as suggested above.

Its tough to deal with when peoples thought patterns are so different!

Could you agree to phone her at 11.45 pm on Tuesdays? If you couldn't do it one day you could text and make another definite time. Would that help do you think?

There is no easy way to say No and have it mean No, but you really must, easy or not. For your own sake. If you can't be a support to her without also derailing your own life, then you will have to choose - and that means choosing your own self-preservation (and that of your children who need you and have more of a claim on you than she does). She is an adult with a difficult disorder, and I'm not sure you even can ever be more to her than a palliative. This is going to use you up, and still ultimately do nothing long term for her. This 11:45-every-Tuesday thing sounds like you have just become another ritual of her OCD, which sucks you into being part of her condition.

I had a similar situation with an obsessively needy person, and in the end anything I did or gave just lasted about as long as a teaspoon full of petrol going through a jet engine. Slurrrp, gone, need more, more, more ... in a repeating cycle.

She needs a clear once-and-for-all understanding, not endless excuses (which allow people to hear only what they want to hear). Make it clear, as kindly as you can; and if she doesn't take it kindly, then she'll have to take it whatever way it comes. She needs professional therapy, not a human pillow to lean on. And you need a break. Give yourself one, in the least unpleasant way open to you, but reframe the friendship on your terms or else cut loose. You are not a doctor. And friendship is meant to be a two-way street - does she give, or only Need?

I don't feel as heartless as I sound, but I've been drained dry by someone's endless drinking in of my spirit, time and energy. And it doesn't end there. This situation will never stop, until you stop it. Best of luck to you in this hard place. But there's only one choice.

Gosh, what a bind. Also, with baby imminent there's no gurantee that you'll be able to stick to any kind of pre-arranged meet-up or other contact. Do you think that she realises this and is panicking? Hope you can help to put her mind at rest. You sound like a lovely friend BTW.

Some fantastic advice here, thank you.

I think it's very possible that much of her behaviour is to do with my pregnancy, as she made some equally excessive requests before DS1 was born. But I think anyone at all in her position would be jealous of a friend having kids, and I don't want to hold that against her.

She's had lots of treatment and help over the years, but none of it has been very effective. One could speculate as to why, but I know from experience that challenging her behaviour gets nowhere.

The idea I really like is to offer to phone her at set, specified times during my working day. I could do that (easier too, without toddlers clambering over me for cuddles), and could also offer to email, too.

For the past few weeeks, Friend has been talking about how she now needs us to meet at 11.45 on a Tuesday morning.

Say "I'm sorry, I can't, I work on Tuesdays"

You need to front up to her and tell her you can only meet once a fortnight or once a month, or whatever you can manage. Her demands are really unreasonable, and the fact that she has these difficulties doesn't mean she has the right to be so demanding.

Do you get anything out of this friendship? Do you have fun when you see her?

Sounds like she is harassing you to be honest. And she has no right to make her problem (the OCD) your problem.

Sadly you may need to get a bit angry with her but you need to stick up for yourself, and your DC.

Sorry, just read your thread title properly. I have no direct experience so apologies!

I have two friends with Aspergers and, although not exactly similar to your situation, they are both exhausting.

There's no way, no way, that I'd be trying to take two small children on two buses when pregnant to meet someone like this. It will knacker you emotionally if not physically, and you will begin to resent it (I'm amazed you have been so lovely this far - you must be a brilliant friend).

I'm afraid, when it's got to the point of someone researching your/your DP's flexitime at work then you must take time out from the friendship. I think you need to give yourself permission to do that - she's intruded too far.

If you want to help her then it might be worth writing down the reasons why you're having a breather from the friendship - your family and work and life, but also her demands - so that she can discuss it with a counsellor if she needs to, or just reflect on it herself. I actually think this would be doing her more of a favour than going along with Tuesday at 11.45 stuff.

My husband has OCD. It is a horrible, crippling disorder and we struggled for a long time before we got a diagnosis. He has had a lot of treatment through CBT and ulimatly the only thing that works is challenging and facing up to the things he feared. Hiding behind rituals and routines only makes things worse.
Basically a fear is triggered that 'something bad will happen' and in order to avoid this the sufferer must do something specific (a routine, ritual, prayer whatever) in a ver specific way. If they don't their anxiety levels increase to almost insuffrable levels. Once they complete the routine anxiety levels decrease but only unitl the next trigger. Feeding the cycle results in routines becoming more complex and involved and supports the sufferers view that only the routine/ ritual can reduce anxiety.
For whatever reason your meeting with your friend has become and important ritual to her. Her anxiety levels are increasing because you aren't meeting her which explains why she is becoming more frantic. When my husband starts with these (and OCD sufferers can be very insistent and manipulative in order to get people to help them) I confront it head on. I say that it is the OCD pushing him to do this. there is no reasonable reason to do it and I refuse outright to do it. Often this will involve saying no to things that for other people I may have done. But if I do it I am only feeding the OCD and helping to make him sicker. His anxiety levels will increase but nowdays decrease very rapidly and he doesn't argue with me over the refusals nearly as much as he used to.
What I am saying is that for her sake as much as yours you can not give in on this. I would also strongly discourage you from phoning/texting her instead, or telling her if something bad happens it will be your fault. You are just reassuring her and facilitating her rituals and this will just help her OCD grow even further out of control. Tell her ' You are my dear friend and I love you. The demands you are making on me are coming from your OCD and not you. I will not be able to meet you at this time. I can meet you at this time and this place' I would if I were you try and set the boundaries of the friendship for your own sake but also for hers as this will prevent her from building you into her rituals.

As BF says, if you were to give into her you would be feeding the OCD - almost like giving credibility to whatever is 'telling her' that you MUST meet at this time. Friends and relatives of OCD sufferers are advised NOT to give into the rituals of the sufferer, whether it is a request to wash your hands when you know it's not necessary, or whether it is to reassure someone repeatedly that they HAVE turned off the oven. In practice of course it can be hard to refuse someone when they are in obvious distress. In your case however, 'giving in' would not only be feeding her OCD, it would also be massively inconveniencing yourself.

Just a thought, but is this definitely just OCD? I have not heard of this type of manifestation before.

At any rate BF had given excellent advice on what to say to your friend to remind her that you care, but also to be firm.

How sad that her OCD is so strong, and that it has prevented her from having children Do you know if she is taking any medication? Some forms of anti-depressants can be effective in managing OCD.

I hadn't heard of OCD to this extent either. The more I read, her behaviour sounds like that someone with bi-polar who I had to distance myself from recently, though it could be that the person I know has OCD as part or in addition to their condition.

Lee32 "I had a similar situation with an obsessively needy person, and in the end anything I did or gave just lasted about as long as a teaspoon full of petrol going through a jet engine. Slurrrp, gone, need more, more, more ... in a repeating cycle."

This was what really rang true for me, and it got to the point where everyone else in my life was the poorer for it, including myself of course.

Whilst you answer her needs you are in fact enabling her to continue with her behaviour.
I know this sounds harsh, its not meant to be but it is a fact. If you go along with her rituals and set times etc you are saying its OK.
It may be OK for her but its not for you or your family ,
Just because she has a m/h problem does not give her the right to be so demanding of your time.
I understand that as a friend you want to help and support her.
To give in to her demands you are helping and supporting her to continue with unacceptable behaviours.
You would not accept that from a friend without m/h issues , so why accept it from her.Unless someone has totally lost their grip on reality and is presenting psychotic then there is no reason that they should be treated any different to someone without m/h issues.

I realise my words sound harsh but I do work with people with poor or enduring M/H issues and no way would we allow anyone to use their illness as an excuse for bizarre behaviour and not take responsibility for it.(Unless as I said earlier their reality was totally impaired and there are very few M/H illnesses were that in fact occurs)
Your friend needs to take responsibility for her actions and understand that your needs are just as important as hers . OCD or not .

PS what BlueFergie says makes an awful lot of sense

Excellent post BlueFergie Hadn't read it before I posted above comment.

Sorry, it's wrong to say OCD can't manifest in this way, it can. Although it does sound possibly like she is going into some sort of other state as well with the frantic contacts - but impossible to diagnose mania or psychosis with a second hand account.

As others have said, by giving in to her to meet/text/phone at a particular time you are enabling her illness to get worse so you are doing the right thing by saying no.

You might get some better advice from this site www.ocdaction.org.uk/

Meanwhile, I would be encouraging her to return for treatment. There's been a massive expansion in CBT in the NHS so she might get better access now.

Who has said it doesn't manifest itself in this way, Eurostar? No-one is trying to diagnose.

Masses of absolutely brilliant advice here, thank you. Thank you for those who've explained OCD so clearly (I have asked Friend herself to help me understand but she finds it hard to separate her rituals from 'normal' behaviour') and thank you to those who have no experience of OCD but can see this with everyday common sense. Rhinestone, please don't apologise.

I think I need to reflect on this before I do anything. In any case, we're not meeting this week.

There could easily be something else effecting your friend as well as OCD. OCD often goes hand in hand with other m/h issues. However her behaviours are not inconsistent with OCD in my opinion.
If you are interested in reading a little about OCD in order to help support your frined better I can recommend a book called Overcoming Obsessive Compulsive Disorder by David Veale and Rob Wilson. It is excellent and no a heavy read at all.
Your friend will not be able to seperate her rituals from normal behaviour and indeed many of her rituals would be normal behaiour in a person who didn't suffer from OCD. It is the relaince she places on them and the need she has to do them that is the problem.
If your friend has had therapy in the past she will understand what you are getting at when you say you can not support her rituals however she may not be happy about it. Often OCD sufferers will only seek out the friends and family who will faciliatate their rituals and routines. Many people do just for an easy life but they are doing the OCD sufferer no favours at all and are ultimatly making life almost imposssible for themselves.

You have my every sympathy, OP, and I read this thread with a sinking heart. There is an OCD sufferer in my life (long story) whose family, for all the reasons stated on the thread, give in to her every OCD demand - to the point, I think, where she has come to see her incredibly bizarre behaviours as quite normal and acceptable. Without doubt, this has made her condition a million times worse, and she now becomes physically violent with anyone who tries to stop her.

Bluefergie your posts are really helpful and informative, and I take my hat off to you. Is taking part in the behaviour also known as 'enabling'? And is there a kind of OCD where the sufferer doesn't realise/see what is happening to them and others? Called something like lack of insight?

If your friend does not acknowledge that her behaviours with respect to the research she is doing into your job, or the demands she is making on you are unreasonable, then I maintain that I suspect something else is going on. OCD in and of itself does not disable your social awareness skills or your ability to recognise the needs of others, even when it affects your behaviours. Either she is an extremely self-involved person, or she has an inability to see the world through anyone else's eyes, which would make me suspect that she is somewhat autistic. When she makes these demands, does she acknowledge that she is asking a lot of you?

Certainly, I'm aware that her problems go beyond OCD. I should have said that at the outset - I didn't intend to dripfeed but just to make us both as unidenfiable as possible.

Nevertheless, I think the excellent torrent of advice I'm receiving does still stand. I'm coming to see that really I do bear much responsibility for this situation through the way I allowed the Thursday meeting to develop into such a ritual and that in the long term sense, it's questionable how supportive a friend I have been to her.

So I suppose the question becomes, where do we go from here?