how do you know whether a marriage is salvageable?

[trappedandweary]

Has anybody been at a massively low point in their marriage for a fairly prolonged period and managed to pull it back? I've been with dh 9 years, married for 4. Things have been pretty bad for the last 3 since I was pregnant with DD and he lost his job but had been very very good for the years before.

The current period was made worse by lies about finances, his job, signing up to a mortgage when he was in disciplinary proceedings at work which he had kept a secret. Within weeks of moving into our family home it all fell apart he went on the sick to stop his employer sacking him. Which they did eventually after a horrendous period of limbo. He took no accountability for any of this and ignored the fact that it left me with no choice but to go back to a very full on high pressure job full time and missing all that time with DD.

He takes ADs for anxiety and I pay for him to have counselling.I try to be supportive but feel a lot of anger and resentment that he seems unable to take any responsibility. He has made no effort to look for work in the last twelve months and not even given any indication that he has any sort of plan. From where I'm sitting it means that I can't have another child, work crazy hours just to keep us all above water and miss out on DD's milestones.

I am also guilty of lies. My heart is in all honesty elsewhere. I met somebody about 9 months ago who just seemed to get me and understand me and communicated with me in a way that had been totally missing at home. It has never been sexual but the feelings run deep and it is what I think could be called an Emotional Affair. I have tried to stop all contact lots of times but it feels like a lifeline. When I have things have been so bleak that it feels like I can't carry on.

I did tell DH at the beginning but he doesn't know I'm still in touch with this other person.

So I just don't know if we can salvage anything from this. I know that I would have to give up the other person and I would absolutely do that if I thought with the other factors we can make it work. It feels like when the love goes, it really goes. I'm not sure we even respect each other anymore.

Anybody been in a similar place?

do you want it to work

does he

if both yes, then it can

if one or both no, then no chance

well, I was going to say the same as janiesmum - if both of you want to salvage it, you have a fighting chance of doing so, although it's by no means a given.

However, if either of you can't really be arsed, then no, there is no chance.

Sorry.

Re. the rest of the stuff in your post - your DH needs help with his depression, oossibly more than he's getting now, to help him stop coasting, which is what he appears to be currently doing.

We went to Relate and I couldn't honestly answer the question put to me of whether I wanted to make it work. I said yes but in my heart I'm not sure. It feels like we've got to the point of it being so broken it's not possible to fix it. DH said yes absolutely with conviction to the same question.

He is good at saying but not good at doing and it has made me lose all trust in him. He makes prmoises that he will try but nothing ever comes of them. He keeps our situation secret and allows people to think he's still working. Ther have been increasingly horrible screaming rows, He has used physical aggression to stop me having my say on a number of occasions now. Has screamed in my face and dragged at the steering wheel while I've been driving with my little girl in the back.

The conflict is exhausting.

I've had some counselling for a few months to try and get my own thoughts straight. I dream of escaping it but the reality is that I feel I ought to make it work. I didn't enter into marriage lightly and honstly thought we would stay strong and see each other right. The logistics are a disaster as well due to being tied into a big mortgage with massive repayment charges for the next two years. our families not being near by etc etc. I;m scared he woudl try and take DD if I ask for a divorce.

A marriage is salvageable (absent abuse) if you both really believe in it (the "worse" in "for better and for worse"). It needs time, effort and determination in pursuit of that. If your heart is elsewhere, are you really able to put in that effort?

You'll never be able to salvage your marriage if your heart is elsewhere. I think most would agree that is certain. IMO Relate and counselling is a complete waste of time until this other man is out of your thoughts completely - and he won't be out of your mind for at least a few weeks after your last contact.
Everytime you reach out for that "lifeline" you mention, you'll be clouding your whole situation at home.
Sorry if that's too blunt. Good luck. :)

No not to blunt at all.

It's what I need to hear.

That person aside (i.e. I take the advice and cut it off altogether), where do I find the strength to turn things around? How do people get over lies? How do you trust again? How do you find a way to talk about the problems without it descending into intimidation? How do you start to see a way forward/a future when all you can see is a big fat blank?

What givenesomespace said. It won't be possible for you to realise what your feelings for DH are while OM and this other relationship is in the picture. Everything will be clouded by this.

It's hard- if you really want to work at your marriage you'll have to stop the EA dead, and only then will you know what future you have, if any.

trappedandweary, I don't have the answers to your questions, but I wanted to say I empathise with the feeling that something is so broken it cannot be fixed. I think when the respect and trust go, so does the willingness to work at things, so you're probably right in asking how to get respect and trust back. Unfortunately I don't know if that's possible, or if it is, how one goes about that. Hopefully some more knowledgeable people will be along soon. In the meantime, I know how you feel.

If the future looks blank to you, that's generally telling you something about how you feel deep down.

What do you mean by intimidation, trapped? Is there violence/abuse involved?

you cannot do it alone. If your H is not willing to put his words into actions, then you will always feel like you are fighting a losing battle anyway.

You do need to completely cut ties with your emotional crutch man as well.

But seriously, consider getting your H reassessed by the doc re. his mental health - pulling at a steering wheel while you are driving along and with your DD in the back is a really rather unhinged thing to do. Of course, it could have just been temper - but it might be something more.

Are you still going to Relate? If not, why not? you need to have a safe space to air your issues with your H.

It really doesn't sound like you want to save your marriage, just that you feel you ought to - why? For your DD? to save face? because it's the way you were brought up?

"Seeing a big fat blank" is probably half the battle to get over to be honest. As long as that is what you see, then you'll probably head that way. Someone told me a racing driver adage once. A racing car driver always looks where he wants to go. The car follows. If he looks at the wall, he'll hit the wall. Same is true of life (Well it is for me). Just try and focus on where you want to get too.

How to deal with the lies? Sorry, I'm don't know what to suggest. I guess it's a huge "cards on the table" moment. ie "Listen DH, this is what you have done and this is why I can't take this behaviour. How would you feel if I did that to you?" Sorry, I'm probably just guessing here.

I'm sure there'll be more able people along in a second or two.

There has been an escalation in aggression. He hasn't hurt me yet but he has smashed things in the house,grabbed me and shaken me, ran at me with a cushion (sounds silly) and rained it down on me at least ten times while I was crouched on the sofa, grabbed my face and shoved my head into an exposed brick wall. Recently it feels like he is on the edge and I can see a time coming when he will hurt me.

I'm no doormat - last time one of these scenes happened I got up and stood by the living room door and told him to stay away from me or I'd call the police. I've got a child upstairs to think about.

surely this throws a different light on things. I'm not the only one thinking get out now?

To be honest, it just seems surreal. Feels like it is happening to somebody else. He isn't a violent person at all. Known for being good nature and fairly laid back. People would struggle to believe it. He kicked through one of the kitchen cupboards and a few people have seen that when they've been over but nobody has mentioned it. I wouldn't know where to start.

explain again why you want to stay in this marriage?
you have no respect for him (and I can see why), you don't appear to love him any more, he abuses you, lies to you, doesn't work, and is becoming increasingly physically violent - I can't for the life of me see why you would WANT to stay, sorry.

My advice re getting his MH assessed still stands, btw. Before he "loses it" and does something really bad.

Are you new on here? Or have you namechanged for this? Just asking in case you had been around about 18m ago..

Another question - does he have a marijuana habit of any kind?

I've namechanged but wasn't around 18 months ago. I'm a prolific lurker and rare poster - nobody you'd recognise. No marijuana habit.

Trapped, so sorry you are going through all this.

I think you have done so much already to try to salvage this marriage. I agree with others saying you have to both want to, but I think there comes a point where, even if you do both want it, the continuation of the relationship isn't always the best thing.

I think your descriptions of his behaviour show a complete lack of resposibility for anything. My DH has done stupid things in our 21 year marriage, but he has then done everything in his power to put things right for his family. I really could not forgive a husband who makes a mistake, takes no reponsibility for it, tries to cover it up, and watches his family suffer because of his behaviour.
It just isn't what a loving partner should do.

ok, just wondered if you'd been around at the time when a regular on here got throttled by her H - he cracked and did it. But he did have a marijuana habit - she was unaware of it at the time.

And the other reason I asked is because I had a friend who used it too much - he had a breakdown which then was diagnosed as bipolar disorder, which involved him going ballistic, punching and kicking holes in cupboard doors etc., violence when he hadn't been violent before (he was also very stressed indeed, which was making him use more marijuana)

Anyway - never mind the drugs - stress can push people over the edge into breakdowns without it - your H is already on ADs for "anxiety", so presumably his stress levels are pretty high. I think he needs to be reassessed, with your input - so perhaps you should go to the GP and tell the GP about these violent outbursts. If they are uncharacteristic of your H, then he might be ill and need different drugs/treatment.

Christ, going by your last posts I'd say get out now! Violence and aggression completely changes everything and puts a totally different slant on what you've posted before...
I'm scared for you :(

Yes - I'll see about going to the GP with him.

Iknow it sounds a silly thing to say but I just don't recognise him as a violent person and at the moment I feel like I can cope with that side of things if I can prevent it escalating. I have pulled him up on it and said he was scaring me and I had noticed how it had escalated. I said it felt like he was being abusive and he went absolutely mad saying I was mental and disgusting to suggest that.

But since then there haven't been any outbursts. I do feel as though we can't get to the bottom of things and discuss anything that matters because it ends in screaming and tears. The counsellor I was seing thought this was to stop me from having the separation conversation with him. His way of keeping it at bay.

Who knows?

But has anybody been at that very low point in a relationship where it feels as though you are both talking in different languages. Everything you say is taken out of context and used against you? How do you pull it back from that point?

"I said it felt like he was being abusive and he went absolutely mad saying I was mental and disgusting to suggest that."
(emphasis mine)

That reminds me of the time I broke down in front of my HV and told her about my abusive XPs behaviour, and how he had gone mental when I told him he was being abusive and said I was mad, a liar, etc. 'But - that's abusive' she said gently. Meaning his minimizing and downplaying of my concerns, and the namecalling.
Her words have really stayed with me.

Your post is worrying because you think you are in control of his behaviour, that you can somehow manage or contain it, and ride the waves of his outbursts without getting hurt. It's a common misconception among abused women ('When it gets bad enough I'll leave. I can cope with these levels of abuse but I won't tolerate any worse'). Unfortunately, it's a total fallacy. Not only are you already depleted in your perspective of whats acceptable, but he will continue to shift the goalposts around and slowly ramp up the pressure until you are saying 'But he never left a mark. Yes, it hurt but there's no bruise so that's okay'. Pushing you around as you describe is ALREADY unacceptable and I'm amazed and horrified you can't see that. His reaction when you challenged him on it is not the reaction of a non-abuser. It's the reaction of a nasty abusive sod who has been caught out and is furious.

Please, please stay safe.

Clearly you dont see him as violent because you didnt mention it in the first post! Kind of odd that you didn't.

Yep - been in that postion where you feel like you've talking different languages. As another poster has mentioned, it takes give and take on both sides. For us, we had to get to absolute breaking point before we got things into perspective. I think we both had to put our pride to one side to address the underlying problems. To be honest it doesn't sound like your OH is anywhere near being able to look at himself and his own issues. Until he can, you'll probably struggle to progress.

T&W - yes I have been in a relationship where everything I said was taken out of context, misconstrued, thrown back at me etc. - because the man in question actually WANTED me to dump him. He didn't want to do it himself (dunno why, since he was also seeing someone else).

please answer this for me - you say you don't recognise him as a violent man - has his behaviour changed dramatically recently? Or has he actually always had violent tendencies but not really shown them to you so overtly before?

You cannot control this, btw. You can think you are doing so right up until the point where he loses it completely. He might be doing it to stop you having a "breaking up" conversation but frankly, this behaviour should make you more likely to break up with him. You cannot continue to expose your DD to this situation - it's unfair on her.

So - either he's a closet violent abuser or he's got a MH problem - either way something needs to change. If it's the former, then get out now and stay out - there is nothing you can do to change him. If you believe that it is a sudden change and could be the latter - then get him to the GP for assessment and better drugs and see if it works.

Meanwhile, keep yourself and your DD safe.

The outbursts have been happening in the last 2 - 3 months. The scenes that have been taking place are completely unthinkable before that. He is a gentle person and I have no qualms about him looking after DD. This has helped me to clear my thinking a bit. I do wonder if the first step is teh GP and then we can look at the rest of the mess.

givemesomespace - I guess that it must sem odd but to be honest the violent outbursts are not the main problem - it is the total inability to communicate in a non hostile way and the fact that I cannot trust him to keep any promises. He isn't violent by nature. And I admit to being shocked and frightened but I don't see the recent violence as the main problem. Together we can sort it and I can ghandle thta if we get through the other problems.