could do with some advice...

[lightfantastic]

...possibly especially from the stately home goers!

Am pretty shaken up this morning. I guess the problem is twofold - concerning the difficult relationship I have with my mother, and my husband's attitude towards this.

BIt of background - I am an only child, father died when I was young. I guess my father's death was the start of my mother's problems in a way. As I was growing up I understood her to be rather 'eccentric', though looking back things were quite screwed up in many ways. My mother was always introverted and somewhat reclusive - had very little social life and didn't work. On one hand she seemed to lead her life 'through' me as I lived through my teenage years, which was pretty unhealthy. She was also pretty negligent at times, and now being a mother myself I really question some of her choices. There was nothing seriously terrible or abusive going on, and we were pretty close, though I remember being quite embarrassed about her a lot of the time. Our house was pretty filthy, and when I was old enough to know what was going on it became clear she smoked dope regularly (most evenings).

Anyway, I left home in my late teens and she continued her life as 'normal', and I got on with mine - worked, met a lovely man and got married etc etc. Fast forward a few years and my mother had a VERY serious breakdown. She basically lost her mind - was thinking people were spying on her and talking gibberish. She was sectioned and in the words of the psychiatrist looking after her was suffering from the most serious case of psychosis he'd seen in a long time. He felt a lot of this was due to the regular marijuana smoking...

She made a 'recovery' of sorts, and left hospital. Over the next year or so we had to cope with some pretty exhausting stuff. We moved her out of the house I grew up in to a more manageable flat - my husband and I had to arrange every aspect of this. While she was 'coping' with life, she would still behave in very damaging ways - the doctors felt that a lot of this was due to her personal choices rather than 'mental illness' as such, and I think that this is where my sympathy towards her began to diminish altogether. She almost ruined the first few months with my first child - she would call me incessantly suggesting there was something 'wrong' with my baby (just what a new mother needs). She would suggest that my marriage was unhappy, when my husband (at this point) was being incredibly supportive. She told whopping lies about taking medication and attending hospital appointments etc - and I basically ran around for about a year trying to 'help' - until it just became too frustrating and upsetting to deal with any more.

I had to take a step back and accept that she won't change, and as she made choices in her life to get herself into this state, I can make choices in mine to cope with it how I see fit. I have two small children now, and they come first. I had to say 'enough' for the sake of my own young family. I don't like speaking to her on the phone - though I do this regularly. I see her rarely now (a few times a year), and find it horrendous when I do, extremely stressful.

Sorry this is getting so long - but to cut to the chase, we saw her yesterday at a family lunch my aunt organised. I smiled my way through it but internally felt very upset being in my mother's presence. Later my husband and I had a huge row - he feels that I should be more accepting as she is my mother and the children's granny. I don't want her involved in our lives in any way but the bare minimum after all that is happened. Ultimately, not a whole lot is going to change here - it's not like he can force me to stop finding it all difficult, but I guess my question is - to what degree should you forgive people because they're family? Thanks in advance for your opinions...x

Again, I'm sorry that was a bit of a ramble! I guess I'm wondering how others cope when they are from a difficult family and their other halves find it difficult to understand. I feel no love for my mother any more, and will find it an enormous relief when she dies. My DH finds this a pretty appalling attitude, but I don't feel it's really his place to judge how I feel....

what a difficult situation for you. i have a difficult mother (and enabling father) too and i do try to maintain a relationship.

there has been no substance abuse or diagnosed psychosis but my mum has regularly been horrible to me and my sister, making us cry. she tell my sister she is a bad mum and giving her children behavioural problems for example.

i don't really have an answer for you but my gut feeling is you are totally doing the right thing by keeping your distance and not wanting her toxic behaviour to impact on your family.

your husband can't know what it's like as he hasn't lived with this sort of situation. my mum kept a better face on for my OH for a longtime but it finally cracked when we were on holiday - think he'd become enough like 'family' to be given the same treatment and it shocked him.

can you try to get him to understand why you behave the way you do? perhaps ask him why he doesn't respect your opinion on this? why does he think you have such a problem with your mother? does he undermine your judgement on other issues or just this one?

I am sort of on your DH's side really.

I can understand your feelings, but your mum seems to have mental problems that while they are partly her own doing, she cant help how she is now.

If the situation were the other way, and it was one of your children who had messed up and needed support, you wouldnt be able to turn your back I dont think.

Being an only child (I am one myself) brings with it an awful lot of emotional pressure as you become an adult and your parents become more dependent on you as they grow older.

My dad died when I was 24, and I had never had a cosy relationship with my mum, as she wasnt the easiest woman in the world to get on with. As I got older, we did get on a lot better. Sadly she died over 2 years ago, and I do feel a lot of issues were unresolved.

Sorry, dont mean to waffle on too much about my story, but just wanted to put it into a sort of comparison, and to say, dont cut your mother off if you can help it. She is your mum and it probably wont be the relief you think when she dies. If you can try and maintain a relationship with her, I think that would be better.

I am guessing you have tried speaking with your husband as to how you have got to this point?

It sounds like he is much further back along a road you have travelled for a longer time.

What does your aunt think? Is your mum talked about in the family?

I can see what your husband is trying to say in that your children's relationship is theirs and should not be clouded by your emotional response to your mum.

However, if they are at any risk from it, then you do have a right to keep them away.

The only other thing I can suggest is trying organisations that deal with mental illness and support from families. This must be a commen problem for which they would have expert advice.

Good luck!

I know how you feel OP. It's such a hard question to answer because while on the face of it your husband is right - she's your mother, she's mentally ill, you can't just abandon her, etc, etc - it's unbelievably hard to unpick the fact that she is a mentally ill human being approaching vulnerable old age and the fact that she was once supposed to be your carer and protector and massively let you down on both counts.

My own mother was an alcoholic for msot of my life and your description of life with your mum resonates with me strongly. I can recognise a lot of my childhood and upbringing in your posts. When she was alive I felt exactly as you do and my partner at the time said exactly what your partner is saying now.

However, until you deal with your own complex feelings about your relationship with her, I'd argue that you're not actually the best placed person to provide the kind of care and support that she needs, because for you to do so would be to the detriment of your own mental well-being.

Keeping your distance and transferring responsibility of primary care to someone more impartial is the sensible thing to do I think. Then you can decide how much (if any) involvement you want to have with her on your own terms.

I don't think your husband is wrong to be saying what he's saying, I just think that if you haven't grown up in that situation yourself it's very hard to understand the feelings of betrayal and rejection you carry with you when your mother was an addict.

I hope you can work something out.

It is possible to just roll your eyes at a difficult relative, maintaining a relationship without engaging emotionally. Perhaps this is what your husband's thinking of. It's almost impossible to do without detachment, though, and you're still understandably angry about her incapacity to be a 'real' mother to you.

If your H has no seriously mad people in his family he's unlikely to get how painful this can be. You would probably need therapy to reach a point where you could disengage your feelings sufficiently to se her only as the batty woman she is now.

He doesn't really have the right to judge your feelings on this, but I appreciate that family bonds are 'sacred' to most people - that's the very reason why we find it so difficult to face facts when our own parents let us down badly. I'm thinking you might be able to reach a compromise over your mother. Perhaps wait for a few more replies, then show him this thread as a starting point?

For what it's worth, I have an OK relationship with my mother now but have no feelings at all about her dying - she's 80. To an extent, I've already mourned her (the mother she couldn't be) and feel about her as I might about a family friend. This took years of therapy!

You shouldn't have to fall out over this. Good luck.

My DH's opinion on my parents is...my parents, my history, my experience, my choice.

At the moment I am no contact with them.

DH says that no matter how much I explain to him how screwy my relationship is with them, he will never ever 'get' it completely...as he has no experience relevant to mine...therefore he trusts me to do the best for our family...and at the moment this means no contact.

Sorry OP..I'll elaborate on the my DH trusting me point...what DH means is if interacting with my parents causes me undue stress and anxiety making me less effective within my chosen family (him and kids) and no contact allows me to live the life I chose not the life chosen by my parents then he supports me with my no contact choice.

Interaction with my parents takes 'me' away from my chosen family...the parental issues end up encroaching into every corner of my chosen family life eventually... my parents have no respect for any/all boundaries I may set ... so an all or nothing contact approach is the only choice available to me.

Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful responses. It's really helpful to hear what you have to say, especially from those who have experienced similar problems or upbringings. Smashing/Squeakytoy/Madonnawhore - thank you for sharing your personal stories, and sorry for what you've been through. I hope you've managed to find peace in each of your situations?

everythingchangeseverything - that's a lovely point that it could be seen as a positive that my DH doesn't get it. His family are completely 'normal' - he has a close and loving relationship with his parents. One thing he said last night was that he 'knows' that if it were his mother, he would not feel the way I do. He 'knows' he could show her more affection, and wouldn't find it so hard. I think it's very wrong of him to presume this - he didn't live my past, and however much one thinks one would behave in a certain situation, no-one can really truly know.

Ageinggrace - I think you're right in that family bonds are 'sacred' to most people. This is what I get from DH - 'but she is your mother/the kids' grandmother...' etc. In my view, though, I don't view this bond to be sacred. I do appreciate that she gave birth to me and brought me up, but I feel, like you did at one point, that I'm in mourning for the mother that I never had. I did see a therapist before my first child was born, and we talked through a lot of these issues. Interesting, he made me see that a lot of the problems I have with anxiety are probably due to growing up around the mother I did.

SnowyBriar - I wish my DH could respect my feelings the way yours does. Last night he made me feel worse about the situation than I do already - he told me that I have a victim mentality. I really don't think I do - I admit to finding it really hard when I have to see my mother, but it's not like I'm rolling around saying 'poor me' on a day to day basis! I think if the situation were reversed I would feel that it was ultimately his choice, despite the in-law/grandparent thing. I guess he finds it pretty hard that I'm usually a pretty caring/loving person, and I have had a total emotional shutdown over this. Thing is, I ultimately don't want to improve my relationship with her, or have her any more involved in our lives. I feel it is best for all of us this way. Perhaps I will come to regret this when she dies, but at the moment I do honestly feel it will be giant relief when she does. Feeling like this makes me so guilty, but it's the honest truth

Anyway, thanks again so much for all your advice. x

It makes me sad to hear that your husband is not making an effort to see this from your point of view.

Knowing now (thanks to mumsnet :)) what I didn't know then, I consider my mum to have been emotionally abusive in her neglect of me and in her alcoholism. For that reason I didn't really want her in my life when she was alive and harboured a lot of anger towards her that I didn't feel allowed to express because by that point she was desperately ill with liver disease and all I'd get from my exP was 'don't shout at your mother like that', 'you shouldn't be so aggressive', etc...

It's good for your husband that he can't possibly put himself in your shoes. lovely for him that he will never know what it's like to come second best to a substance addiction your whole life. But for him to accuse you of having a victim mentality is unfair and mean. You're not trying to play the part of victim, you had that foisted on you by your mother and now that as an adult you can dictate your own life, you are simply trying to protect yourself from her toxic influence.

I sympathise with you OP I really do. I don't know what the answer is; I never found it myself.

Hi lightfantastic

DH and I have been together over 20 years and although he doesn't 'get' it all he has seen my reactions/personality change when my parents start kicking off/game playing. So I suppose he has seen some form of 'evidence' as to their effect on me.

Is it worth writing a letter to your DH basically listing all the events that have lead to your emotional shut down regarding your mother?

When talking to my DH I usually start with..."I know this will sound as if I'm making this up but when I was a kid/teenager/adult, this is what happened..." that way I'm not asking him to believe me or ought but am acknowledging how hard it maybe for him to take on board my history.

It also works well for me as I am telling him how it was and thereby dispelling the secrets and ghosts of my screwy family. I suppose I sort of chuck it out there in the ether for him/me to digest/discuss when he's ready.

Also, it maybe that your DH just can't get his head around anyone treating their child so appallingly...some of 'our' stories can make others very upset on our behalf...and his ignoring the real story is a coping mechanism.

Thanks madonnawhore. Do you have children? I often have silly worries that because the relationship with my mother is so awful that history might repeat itself. I can say with confidence that I will never make the choices that she did. But I sometimes worry that because I have such a fraught relationship with her (and with such limited contact, at my choosing) that it would be 'karma' for the relationship with my children to become difficult in some way. Nonsense I know...I don't know what the answer is either!

No I don't have children but I really want them!

I've done a lot of work to come to terms with my childhood and the fact that my mum was so crap - (I feel disloyal even typing that but it's true!) For ages and ages I thought I would be a crap mum too and it would probably be better if I didn't have kids, but I now I'm at a place where I know that if I had children I'd be a good mother. I know that who she was and her issues don't have to have any bearing on my future. We are two separate people.

This is going to sound awful, but it's only since she died that I've been able to make this progress and make peace with it all. The whole time she was alive it was just this horrible black cloud blighting my life and making me feel like shit. I've been 'free' for 3 years now and it really is such a relief. So I don't blame you for feeling it would be easier if she were dead, because it would be. It is for me.

Kill her maybe?

Just kidding

Thanks SnowyBriar. My husband was there when my mother had her breakdown - he saw how disturbing it was, and how damaging her recent behaviour in recent years has become. He pretty much knows it all (though can't understand the ins and outs of my childhood, what it was like when my father died etc). I have to say, when she was in hospital, he was amazing - a real rock, so supportive.

What he finds difficult is understanding where I'm at now. I am at the point when I feel like I've been pushed to my limits by the whole situation, and would, in all honesty, would happily cut contact with her altogether. As it stands, on a 'practical' level, most of the time, it's not too bad: I see her rarely, and currently speak on the phone to her once a week (quite enough for me!) Obviously it's not an ideal situation, but it is what it is.

What really bothers me about DH though, is that he seems to be putting his 'views' over my feelings. He sometimes just comes out with "the children should really see their grandmother soon" - knowing how absolutely stressed contact with her makes me. When I explain that he says I should just 'get over it.' Well, maintaining minimal contact IS my way of getting over it. Another example - I had to establish a 'rule' with my mother that, unless there is an emergency, I call her, she does not call me. This happened after a period of time where she became totally out of control with her phone calls. If I didn't answer her call, she would call the landline and my husband's phone and my mobile incessantly - think 25 times in an hour. I'm pleased to say that she generally respects this now, but if she does call me (as she sometimes can't resist doing for no reason, no emergency or anything...) I get very stressed as it brings it all back (the peak of this behaviour was when I had just had my first baby, so you can imagine how stressful...). When this happens, my husband will say 'she does this, this is HER, accept it.' I don't really see that is should accept it. Generally, he seems to think that I should 'grow up and get on with it' (his words last night). I feel I do 'get on with it' most of the time - all I said last night was that I hadn't had a good time being around her at the lunch, and he laid into me. He's not coming off very well here, is he? :(

"What really bothers me about DH though, is that he seems to be putting his 'views' over my feelings" - absolutely agree with you. you are right to be bothered.

another alarm bell is the fact he says you have "victim mentality". this is a very powerful and dangerous label to dish out to your partner. it's one thing to see that your partner has a tendency to assume a victim role and to ask them questions about this and see how they feel about it, whether they agree or disagree. it's very different to just throw out a label. all too often we latch onto the role our partners give us and this becomes our reality. just think how this label has made you feel? and how differently you would feel if he had, for example, said you have "survivor mentality".

please try to decide your own labels for yourself - and feel free to ditch them for more helpful ones. labels have a nasty habit of stopping us from growing as people.

madonnawhore - your post just gave me a much needed laugh! Well, she is a rather unhealthy 71 year old, so here's hoping...

Seriously though, you are so right that who your mother was has no bearing on you and your future ability to be a good parent. If anything, you may well be a better mum for having experienced what you've gone through, as you've had to do some serious soul searching (for wont of a better term) and have probably thought a lot about how you would like to raise your children. I like to think I've got a pretty clear idea of what can make my kids grow up feeling happy and secure. Because of my experience with my mother, I also try to take steps to ensure that my life isn't only about my children, if that makes sense. It's hard, particularly now because they are so young - but I think that a lot of the problems that my mother experienced were due to the fact that she let her life 'go' after getting married and having a baby.

I bet you'll be a wonderful mum

"He's not coming off very well here, is he?"

------------

No, I'm afraid he isn't...

It seems something has changed...from so supportive to using your mother situation as something to have a 'pop' and a 'dig' at you with...it's as if he is using your mother to put you back in your place for whatever reason.

Hmm..something funny going on...a supportive DH when you actually are a victim of your mothers abuse but when you 'deal' with the situation he seems to want to put you back into victim status.

I'm not liking the sound of your DH much at the moment...

Thank you smashing. What you've said is very powerful somehow, it's actually made me cry (gosh, this thread is becoming very up and down, isn't it?!)

It did upset me that he said that (he said this before when we had a similar conversation about my mum). If I'm upset, I find it hard to bottle things up, and do like to talk things through, but it seems DH has a very limited capacity sometimes. It's not like I'm going on and on about it all the time or anything, I'm really not.

It is pretty horrible to be told you have a victim mentality, yes. I usually feel like I'm strong despite some of the hurdles I've faced (this whole blardy mother thing, father dropping dead when I was 12, losing a close friend very suddenly a few years back). I remember a friend calling me very 'tough' in fact, a while back - and that made me feel better than being called a victim, indeed....

Thanks snowy. I'm not really liking the sound of him much either! What I needed was for him to give me a hug, not for him to make me feel more crappy than I already did...

The 'argument' flared up quickly, and horribly - like our arguments often do. We were shouting at each other (children were in bed) and he walked out of the house, very fired up. He came back after about half an hour, and did apologise for losing his temper. I didn't want to get into the subject of my mum again, but I did say that maybe it would be a good idea to get some help to prevent our arguments from flaring up in the way they do. We both get angry quickly - we cool down quickly as well, but I hate it. He said 'absolutely not'. I know if it was make or break time of course he would come to counselling (at least I think I know he would), but it annoyed me that he couldn't even entertain the idea in conversation last night...

I need to take my youngest dc to the docs in a minute, but thank you for all your advice so far, and I'll check in later...x

It just sounds like your husband is making things unnecessarily stressful when he can see it's already a very emotive and painful situation for you.

I don't understand why he's so aggressive about getting his point across. Sure, he can tell you what he thinks, but ultimately it's your mother and up to you how you want to manage your relationship with her.

If he's so hellbent on making sure the kids have a relationship with her then he can handle it. Is his enthusiasm for her grandparenting reciprocated by her or is he just using that point as a rod to beat you with?

Have to admit he really isn't coming off well here. It's like his is the only opinion and are the only feelings that count.

Hi again.

My mother being involved as a grandparent in any meaningful way would be pretty much impossible. She doesn't engage with my children when she sees them - it's as if she's forgotten how to talk to small children entirely. On a practical level she is so obese she can barely walk, let alone lift up my one year old. So I don't think my husband thinks that she would be a great granny and I'm depriving her and our kids of that relationship. I think it's more that he feels we have a 'duty' to see her a bit more than we do (this despite me finding it horrible and stressful)...and that when we do see her, that I won't then articulate my feelings about the experience.