Narcissist child??

[NettleTea]

do you think children can be narcissistic? Or are all children like it to a certain extent? Or that it is an inherited condition. My DD (age 10) is a lovely little girl, but she has just recently started seeing her father again, and already thinks he is the golden boy, despite the fact he didnt bother seeing her for 3 years as a result of a DV situation between him and his ex. I suspect he is Narcisistic or definately some kind of personality disorder, he is just completely out there on his own, total charmer, total controlling abuser.
I am now witnissing behaviour from her which rings alarm bells with me - I love her to pieces, she is only a little kid, but I am finding the way that she behaves and the way that she speaks and acts to me and her little brother completely unacceptable. I left her dad when she was 2, after 8 years of emotional abuse and controlling behaviour. I cant leave my child. I dont want to be a mum who's daughter hates her, and confrontation about behaviour just seems to escalate it out of control. She seems to fly into a rage and stuff comes out of her mouth which she regrets later. She also seems to display 'false' emotion - pretending to cry, which can be switched off instantly - smirking behind her hand if she is told off or is asked to say sorry, seemingly having very little empathy or just selective empathy for others.
On the other hand she can be very loving - she is a very bright little girl, she also has a medical condition which means alot of time is spent in hospitals and on therapies. She has seen councillors in the past to deal with anger issues when her dad left.
I think what I am scared of is that she will be like her dad. Living with him was the worst time of my life, and I am frightened that the child I love will grow up to treat me the same way. I am not sure what way to deal with the behaviour - I never managed to get her dad to treat me with respect. The usual 'parenting techniques' dont seem to be working.

I would suggest a parenting class that will give you confidence in your abilities. She sounds like a pretty normal 8 year old girl with some behaviours that need nipping in the bud. Look at her as a child, not as her father's daughter. Your HV should be able to guide you in the right direction.

GettingAGrip might possibly be able to give you some good advice and insight here. I will let her know about this thread. Dont panic.

Hello UA. Not 'seen' you for a while. I hope you read my huge thanks aftyer Christmas.

OP - I sometimes fret that my dd (age 8) can be 'abusive' when she's in a temper. Her father was, though she's barely ever seen him. Surely it can't be inherited though? I would imagine it should be a nurture issue if an adult is N.

Maybe it just happens that some children go through a stage of being like that as part of their development.

People like us with abusive exes are more likely to worry, I imagine.

I'll be interested to hear what GettingAGrip has to say too.

All children are narcissistic. The reason it becomes a serious problem in adult life is that personality-disordered adults have failed to develop beyond childhood emotionally.

She's very likely modelling her behaviours on her father, which could be why you're having trouble with them now. Several mumsnetters have successfully taught their children to recognise toxic behaviours, and I hope they reply to your thread.

I haven't got their direct experience, but from my own child-management years I would heartily recommend highlighting her manipulative actions to her - not in a critical way, more of a "That's really funny, DD, can you give me a few more sobs? Let's both have a go!"

Theory of mind isn't fully developed until the early twenties. At ten, it's very much in the experimental stage. Don't worry too much :)

Maybe access to her dad isn't the right Idea judging by your description of him, and if its having a drastic effect on her

I did some online research into Narcissitic personality disorder as my mother probably has it. It certainly makes sense of my rather strange childhood!

Anyway I read about the causes. It suggests that a lot of children display narcissistic tendencies but they do grow out of them. Most realise the effects of their behaviour on other people and learn how to behave in a way that doesn't cause upset. Only a few (around 2% of the population)are unable to adjust they behaviour, some even relishing the hurt they cause. Hopefully your DD will grow out of it, though she may well need some help.

My DD can be difficult but I have learnt to ignore the stuff I don't like. I walk away if she's in a mood.

Not sure if that helps!

Thanks for the advice.
She only sees her dad for about an hour and a half every fornight, and it is supervised by my mum, who he tries to impress and who calls him to it as she knows he is full of crap. The contact was arranged through court when I had to take a prohibitives steps order to prevent him taking her anywhere without my permission, or coming to her school. He doesnt know where we live, and, good kid, she said she couldnt remember when he pressed her for the address. She knows some of what happened between us and how he was, and she has seen it first hand with his ex (who also has a child by him) who he was actually physically violent towards in her presence (which he denies to this day, and claims is DD 'being manipulative' - he doesnt know that his ex came to see me and told me the whole story)
I think thats a good idea to not think of her as her fathers child. Look forward to hearing what GettingAGrip says too.....

Also to add I have been thinking about getting CAMHs involved again, the were very helpful in the past and now that he is back on the scene we have a 'fast track' to see them again, both individually and together.

Some of these sound like normal 10-yr old behaviours. Look at this from another angle- it's quite possible that your ex behaves like a 10yr old. As Grace says, all children are narcissistic.

The smirking when being told off/saying sorry: it's no big issue, and a really common response borne of embarrassment, not malice.

The pretending to cry: my 2 yr old does this- it's just a normal way a child explores whether or not they can manipulate their parents. Let her know gently that it doesn't work, and move on.

"She seems to fly into a rage and stuff comes out of her mouth which she regrets later"

"She has seen councillors in the past to deal with anger issues when her dad left."

There's your answer.

I am really concerned that your DD is also frightened of becoming/behaving like your ex and you leaving her. Reassure her, and stay strong. It sounds like she needs you, and she's testing you a bit to see if you leave.

Be very very careful about likening her to your ex- you have possibly inadvertently done the old 2+2=5 IMO, and it is essential that you do not give your DD the message that she is like her dad.

Hello

I am here . Will be back later, will think about this and try to give you some ideas.

xx

waiting with bated breath then gettingagrip!

I think that when we've had a narcissistic partner we are naturally hyper vigilant about any behaviour that is similar, particularly horrified if we think we see it in our children. he's back in your (and her) orbit and you're bound to feel tense about that.

Its true. Life had been lovely,and as he had gone abroad Id hoped he had gone for good. Sadly once he had cleared the GF out of money and was needed to step up and provide for his next child with her, they soon ended up here and on benefits......
I think people dont realise why I am suspicious of his intentions all the time - example, we invited him to come and watch DD dance, and he said that he would invite my friend, who was over from the states for a couple of weeks. On the surface seemed a pleasant thing, but I KNOW there is an undertone (he didnt even talk to my friend either - I ended up asking him to join us myself) Its to do with him knowing that this friend is particularly important to me, and he is letting it known that HE has ingraciated himself into his family and is on 'best buddy' terms with him..... hard to explain if you havent been in the situation. Its also to do with portraying himself as the injured party with people who are important to me, even now.
Even at the dance show it had to be all about him - he recognised one of the dance teachers and so he went down and was all pally with him, saying 'Im DDs dad' and as we left he was arranging to go out for a drink with him. Obviously he wont, but its typical about taking DD's limelight and making it about him.
I prefer to keep everything at arms length, I know how quickly he can turn from being charming and nice to screaming threatening abuse if you contradict him or he can have his own way. It makes me sick to see DD lap it all up, saying daddy says x y z, daddy is going to buy me this and that, (when its ME on the phone to daddy telling him what to buy her for Christmas as he doesnt know what to get, cant be bothered to put himself out to buy what she has asked for) At least my mum is there to monitor what is said, and she doesnt take any crap from him. And then he buys some huge fuck off card full of shit about how she is so wonderful and special to him, and the fact that he couldnt be arsed to remember her birthday or Christmas for 3 years seems to have been forgotten.

oh God, got that t-shirt. hes dead now (......) but lived all that shit for 25 years, even though I left him, divorced him. they turn up like bad pennies, FULL of shit, endless manipulations and charm charm charm. when he died and after the funeral, I went to bed and the bedside light started flickering in a weird way - freaked me out LOL! thought omg he's still getting at me from the other side. !!!

no, know EXACTLY what it is like. my dear girl, you are so very very lucky that your mother knows what he'[s up to. my family lapped up my ex and would've sat on his shoes adoringly if they got the chance. they never saw through him - hardly anybody did.

Luckily a bit TOO charming, my dad thought he was a creep from the start but kept schtum for my sake. Sister stayed with us once and witnessed his outbursts and went back and told my mum, so she was wise to him too. He HATED my sister cos she told him he was behaving badly, and had revealed his behaviour to my parents, who he desperately wanted to impress. He once told me that my mum told him that he shouldnt let me have any freedom and should hit me into place...??? I actually DIDNT believe that. I actually didnt believe alot of what he said, buut was horribly tied into the whole relationship for some inexplicable reason. Maybe didnt want to 'fail' at it, wanted to piece together some kind of reasoning behind it, thought I could 'fix' him (both myself and the ex he DV'd said that we saw him as an innocent caught up in a world of corruption - wonderful actor!! - nothing could be further from the truth. He loved everything that crawled in the gutter, and would have liked nothing better that to be king of the scum - gangsta major, with his drugs and his guns and his hookers....)
I dont regret DD, and being with him at least forced me into therapy to broing to a halt the progressively more damaging relationships I was involved in, but I wish he would just dissappear again... Wondering what will happen when his dad dies, as he is only son left (the only nice one died in a tragic accident, the other one is clinically insane, in and out of either hospital or prison, or doped up to the eyeballs) as he will be expected to go back home and support his mum.

yeah mine got me into therapy too ie after I left him and the full horror of what I'd let myself get involved in hit me with full force..

re charm - you just couldn't see the seams with mine. I watched, from across the room, him talking to someone once and you could almost SEE the spell falling on her like an invisibility cloak (too much harry potter, obviously). they brainwash you - but you (we lol) have a propensity to fix or, more bluntly, are codependent (that boring old thing ). that's what reels us in (with them doing some ferocious reeling too of course): the poor poor baby with his poor poor childhood. ex married again and she was in full flight with the 'poor poor thing' stuff when I met her - she thought I was a hard bitch, confirming all his poor poor tales about me, which added to his sad sack of stories. woah, sounding a bit bitter there!

sometimes I wonder if heaven went dark the day I met him. I've had nothing but trouble from that day to this tbh.